Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

I still don't see how someone saying this is the tastiest meal ever, means it is tastier than something they didn't taste. That comment had nothing to do with Goku, it was Moro being cocky right before getting handed the check.

Among the many things implying Vegeta is stronger, that is not one of them.

[Dragon Wukong]

The way I see it it's just pointless to tout "Vegeta is stronger" as an outright fact when we have those comments from Gohan and 18, when Goku was also able to push back a full power Moro in an aura clash.

I won't even say "Goku is stronger" is an outright fact at this point in the story. But it's disingenuous for someone to actually say "I honestly don’t understand the difficulty in realizing that Vegeta surpassed Goku in sheer power right now" when there's things that contradict that line of thought currently as well, as though to deny it could suggest a lack of comprehension, rather than a potentially valid interpretation.

[Hugo Boss]

Moro failed to absorb Goku’s energy because he was using a level of power that Goku could react to. After he increases his power, Goku is easily caught. There is no reason to assume that he would fail no matter what he did. And he didn’t need to absorb Goku and Vegeta’s energy to remark their powerlevel, so I don’t see your point.

Look. I'm not debating whether or not Moro could've absorbed Goku's energy at some point. Literally all I'm saying is that Moro referring to Vegeta as his "finest meal yet" can't and shouldn't be used to scale him to Goku post-training somehow, because Moro didn't absorb Goku's energy.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Why this justification only applies to Goku? He doesn’t absorb Vegeta’s energy as well. Are you implying Moro can’t sense powerlevels?

I still don't see how someone saying this is the tastiest meal ever, means it is tastier than something they didn't taste.

Are you serious?!

[Dragon Wukong]

Why this justification only applies to Goku? He doesn’t absorb Vegeta’s energy as well. Are you implying Moro can’t sense powerlevels?

What? Are you suggesting that if it were the other way around, that if Moro said "this will be my finest meal yet" to Goku, that somehow means Goku is stronger than Vegeta? Even though he hasn't absorbed Vegeta's energy yet either? It's not a justification that only applies to Goku. It's a justification that applies to literally anyone Moro hasn't absorbed energy from currently. Saying "this will be my finest meal yet" as justification for Vegeta being stronger than Goku holds as much weight as justification for Vegeta being stronger than Whis, or hell as much weight as justfication for Vegeta being stronger than Roshi.

Secondly, Moro doesn't have godly ki. There's nothing to suggest currently that he can sense either Ultra Instinct or Super Saiyan Blue. It's most likely he ascertain's the strength of Goku and Vegeta via the force of their blows, rather than energy sensing.

[Hugo Boss]

It's most likely he ascertain's the strength of Goku and Vegeta via the force of their blows, rather than energy sensing.

Since this is the explanation you came up, which blow Moro thought was stronger?

[Dragon Wukong]

It's most likely he ascertain's the strength of Goku and Vegeta via the force of their blows, rather than energy sensing.

Since this is the explanation you came up, which blow Moro thought was stronger?

Moro never compares the Goku and Vegeta. He says Goku wasn't someone to worry about in the end once Goku starts losing strength, but you also have Moro being pushed back by the sheer force of Goku's aura when they clash at full power. So why are you asking?

[Koitsukai]

I still don't see how someone saying this is the tastiest meal ever, means it is tastier than something they didn't taste.

Are you serious?!

really... ? where's the flaw in my comment? you are the one saying Vegeta is finer than a meal Moro never got!

[Hugo Boss]

It's most likely he ascertain's the strength of Goku and Vegeta via the force of their blows, rather than energy sensing.

Since this is the explanation you came up, which blow Moro thought was stronger?

Moro never compares the Goku and Vegeta. He says Goku wasn't someone to worry about in the end once Goku starts losing strength, but you also have Moro being pushed back by the sheer force of Goku's aura when they clash at full power. So why are you asking?

I’m asking because somehow you think Moro is making empty remarks about how powerful Goku and Vegeta are. I think he has quite a solid assessment of how strong they are after taking their full-powered attacks head on. And by the way Goku is confused and Moro is tranquil, it doesn’t seem like Moro was using his full power either.

really... ? where's the flaw in my comment? you are the one saying Vegeta is finer than a meal Moro never got!

I’m not trying to be rude, but this doesn’t make any sense. You are talking like Moro’s claim has no meaning behind it. As if he can’t tell which one is more powerful.

[Dragon Wukong]

Since this is the explanation you came up, which blow Moro thought was stronger?

Moro never compares the Goku and Vegeta. He says Goku wasn't someone to worry about in the end once Goku starts losing strength, but you also have Moro being pushed back by the sheer force of Goku's aura when they clash at full power. So why are you asking?

I’m asking because somehow you think Moro is making empty remarks about how powerful Goku and Vegeta are. I think he has quite a solid assessment of how strong they are after taking their full-powered attacks head on. And by the way Goku is confused and Moro is tranquil, it doesn’t seem like Moro was using his full power either.

I don't think Moro's making empty remarks about how strong Goku and Vegeta are, he just never at any point does a comparison between them, like you suggest the "finest meal yet" comment is. Moro has said both Goku and Vegeta are really strong guys who probably taste good.

But nothing Moro himself has said so far would suggest that Vegeta is stronger than Goku now. You can argue maybe Goku's "surpass" comment does, but nothing Moro has said or done so far would.

And for the record, nothing about Moro's mentality at that time would indicate he wasn't using his full power. In fact, Moro's comment about being cautious at that point would imply he had in fact truly been using his full strength.

Mind you it doesn't make sense narratively to have Moro hold back against Goku as he's using Ultra Instinct when he ends up getting a whole NEW power-up that goes beyond even THAT after Moro fights Vegeta, whose whole fight is centered around him getting weaker than he was against Goku.

I’m not trying to be rude, but this doesn’t make any sense. You are talking like Moro’s claim has no meaning behind it. As if he can’t tell which one is more powerful.

Dude, what do you want him to say? Moro's "finest meal ever" comment doesn't make sense as a comparison to Goku unless he has consumed Goku's energy.

[Hugo Boss]

Dude, what do you want him to say? Moro's "finest meal ever" comment doesn't make sense as a comparison to Goku unless he has consumed Goku's energy.

I thought that you guys would simply understand how Toyotaro spells “you are the most powerful opponent I’ve encountered so far” in Moro’s language. But I see that’s a futile effort. I won’t try anymore.

[Dragon Wukong]

I thought that you guys would simply understand how Toyotaro spells “you are the most powerful opponent I’ve encountered so far” in Moro’s language. But I see that’s a futile effort. I won’t try anymore.

Or it's just Toyotaro's way of saying he's stronger than anyone else Moro has eaten so far.

[Koitsukai]

really... ? where's the flaw in my comment? you are the one saying Vegeta is finer than a meal Moro never got!

I’m not trying to be rude, but this doesn’t make any sense. You are talking like Moro’s claim has no meaning behind it. As if he can’t tell which one is more powerful.

It has nothing to do with Moro being able or not to do anything, he is talking about his meals, Omen Goku is not part of Moro's history of meals because he was saved by the bell. Only the people that he absorbed were part of the comparison.

Dude, what do you want him to say? Moro's "finest meal ever" comment doesn't make sense as a comparison to Goku unless he has consumed Goku's energy.

I thought that you guys would simply understand how Toyotaro spells “you are the most powerful opponent I’ve encountered so far” in Moro’s language. But I see that’s a futile effort. I won’t try anymore.

That was so not the subtext behind Moro's remark, it was that the fight was over and that he had won. He never absorbed Omen Goku, so that interpretation has a huge plothole.

[DBZ Macky]

In my opinion, there's no way Vegeta's actually physically stronger than Goku. Narratively speaking, it seems very unlikely that Vegeta would actually win if he fought Goku's brand new shiny Ultra Instinct form.

Look at it like this, did Trunks with Grade 3 really surpass Grade 2 Vegeta?

Basically this.

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

But the dialogue literally undermines Vegeta.

Bottom line: This is the audience reaction to Vegeta vs Moro (when Moro had his full power.)



Compare to the audience reaction to Goku vs Moro (again, after Moro started using his full power.)



So, either Goku's statement is contradicting these moments, or he isn't speaking literally in terms of power. Which given the nature of Vegeta's ability, is most likely the case.

Again, keep in mind Vegeta doesn't begin to do well against Moro at all until he's lost his strength. And the opposite is true for Moro against Goku.

This is pretty much the best argument to be made.
Vegeta has the stronger Blue form (which puts him on the same level as UI Goku and Moro), and with his spirit fission technique, he ends up doing much better against Moro than Goku did. That seems to be the simplest and most obvious answer.

though I could see something like this working:
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta << UI Goku (Initial) < SSBE Vegeta < Moro < UI Goku (Power Stressed) << MUI Goku

[miguelnuva1]

Didn't Gohan and Piccolo also say there was no change in Vegeta's power right before the fight started?

[Dragon Wukong]

Didn't Gohan and Piccolo also say there was no change in Vegeta's power right before the fight started?

They said they don't know what's different before Vegeta attacks. Which isn't a comment on if he got stronger or not, because it's been noted several times in this arc that they can't sense godly ki.

[FishermanJohnWest]

I wouldn't put too much weight on the finest meal ever comment, after all Moro wasn't able to absorb Goku and was about to "eat" Vegeta, therefore Omen Goku isn't even part of the equation. That comment would mean something if Moro had actually absorbed Goku, it only means this Vegeta>everybody absorbed by him before.

However, the chatter between Piccolo, Jaco and Goku convinces me that Vegeta is the strongest. Even though they might have been talking about getting the win and being the MPV, and not about raw strenght.

It has to be noted that, seeing how there are fair points from both sides and it is up for debate, it isn't crystal clear (as usual) and seems just another vague move from the staff. Perhaps the upcoming chapter will confirm it one way or the other

He didn't absorb Vegeta either so why would he assume that Vegeta will be his finest meal and say that > Goku when he hasn't absorbed either Goku or Vegeta energy ?

Moro failed to absorb Goku’s energy because he was using a level of power that Goku could react to. After he increases his power, Goku is easily caught. There is no reason to assume that he would fail no matter what he did. And he didn’t need to absorb Goku and Vegeta’s energy to remark their powerlevel, so I don’t see your point.

Precisely

[FishermanJohnWest]

Goku never physically did better then Vegeta, in fact Vegeta had more effect on Moro then Omen based on Moro reaction to getting hit

Moro reaction from getting hit by Goku


Moro reaction from getting hit from Vegeta



How Goku reacts to Moro hitting him



How Vegeta reacts after Moro hits him




Difference is Vegeta went to use his ability straight away and got thing done quickly.

Moro thinks Vegeta is his finest meal



Piccolo and Goku admit Vegeta > Goku




Vegeta has surpassed Omen Goku

I proved Vegeta > Omen here, their is no reason for why Vegeta isn't > Omen Goku right now

[Koitsukai]

I wouldn't put too much weight on the finest meal ever comment, after all Moro wasn't able to absorb Goku and was about to "eat" Vegeta, therefore Omen Goku isn't even part of the equation. That comment would mean something if Moro had actually absorbed Goku, it only means this Vegeta>everybody absorbed by him before.

However, the chatter between Piccolo, Jaco and Goku convinces me that Vegeta is the strongest. Even though they might have been talking about getting the win and being the MPV, and not about raw strenght.

It has to be noted that, seeing how there are fair points from both sides and it is up for debate, it isn't crystal clear (as usual) and seems just another vague move from the staff. Perhaps the upcoming chapter will confirm it one way or the other

He didn't absorb Vegeta either so why would he assume that Vegeta will be his finest meal and say that > Goku when he hasn't absorbed either Goku or Vegeta energy ?

Because Vegeta is clearly the strongest character Moro was going to absorb, the only one that comes close to it was Omen Goku and he didn't absorb him, so any comparison he does about meals does not include Omen Goku.

Oh, I think I was misunderstood, I didn't mean Moro CAN'T absorb Goku, I meant Moro just didn't, he was interrumpted by the androids.

[Grand Marshal 1]

In my opinion, there's no way Vegeta's actually physically stronger than Goku. Narratively speaking, it seems very unlikely that Vegeta would actually win if he fought Goku's brand new shiny Ultra Instinct form.

Look at it like this, did Trunks with Grade 3 really surpass Grade 2 Vegeta?

Basically this.

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

But the dialogue literally undermines Vegeta.

Bottom line: This is the audience reaction to Vegeta vs Moro (when Moro had his full power.)



Compare to the audience reaction to Goku vs Moro (again, after Moro started using his full power.)



So, either Goku's statement is contradicting these moments, or he isn't speaking literally in terms of power. Which given the nature of Vegeta's ability, is most likely the case.

Again, keep in mind Vegeta doesn't begin to do well against Moro at all until he's lost his strength. And the opposite is true for Moro against Goku.

This is pretty much the best argument to be made.
Vegeta has the stronger Blue form (which puts him on the same level as UI Goku and Moro), and with his spirit fission technique, he ends up doing much better against Moro than Goku did. That seems to be the simplest and most obvious answer.

though I could see something like this working:
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta << UI Goku (Initial) < SSBE Vegeta < Moro < UI Goku (Power Stressed) << MUI Goku

A scale I can agree on

If I were to add something to it:

SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta << UI Goku (Initial) < SSBE Vegeta < Moro ≈ UI Goku (Power Stressed) < 7-Moro-3 (possibly) << MUI Goku

So since Goku's power plays around Vegeta's they are pretty much equal. These debates always end up getting researched so much and it's pointless with the info we got.
Let's check on the number of pages for the chapter since they may play a role to whether Vegeta or Goku is stronger

[FishermanJohnWest]

The bulk of Vegeta's gains other than the spirit fission technique was his improved Spirit/Ki control.
He shouldn't be massively stronger than Goku in equal forms, just that he has better Ki Control now which gives a big enough edge, so much so that even Vegeta was surprised how much he improved when he easily took out Yuzun (that guy who's the same race as Zarbon)

On the other hand, Goku was able to use glimpses of Ultra Instinct without actually using the form, and is now able to use the incomplete form at will. If Vegeta made any additional gains in terms of battle power, Goku probably would've made the same by training with Merus.

They seem to still be about equal taking that into account:

SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta
Goku (using Ultra Instinct-esque movements) = Vegeta (using improved spirit control)
SSB Goku (with Kaio-Ken/Power Stressed in the Manga) = SSB Evolution Vegeta
Ultra Instinct Goku = Vegeta (Effectively, with the Spirit Fission stuff) = Moro

Vegeta could be slightly stronger than Goku in equivalent forms, but I think there's no way Vegeta's actual battle power should be greater than UI Goku's, since that would basically mean Vegeta could've just overpowered Moro by doing a few push ups instead of spending time on Yardrat.

Also, Moro was just a good match up against Vegeta's technique. I don't even think 73-absorbed Moro should reasonably stand a chance against Vegeta if the Saiyans stay on their guard, even if Moro has a higher battle power. You're telling me Vegeta straight up tells Moro that relying on absorbing someone else's strength is useless... and Moro literally does that again?

Just like 17 becoming blue level from hunting poachers ? that's not an argument against Vegeta being stronger, how character gain powers and that efforts in gaining it should never be used as an argument for why someone else is > the other, otherwise Broly has no right being as strong as he is or other characters in super shouldn't ass pull.

Vegeta evolved blue in the TOP was already >> Kaioken Blue Goku as said by Jiren



Moro, Piccolo and Goku admit Vegeta > Goku, no head canon or expectations needed. And Moro felt he was too cautious with Omen Goku, Moro was simply above Omen Goku



and Vegeta hurt Moro far better then Goku did based on Moro reactions



compared to Goku



and Vegeta handles Moro attacks far better as well






Vegeta is > Omen