Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

Underestimating someone because you didn't factor in unknown quantities? Perfectly valid to say they're underestimations.

Read the chapter, my guy. This is exactly why you should pay attention to the dialogue instead of moving the goalpost and wasting several paragraphs.

Piccolo didn't mention anything about Vegeta not "underestimating" his opponents. He said that Vegeta isn't one to misread an opponent's strength, which A.) is much more specific than mere underestimation and B.) is generally (and almost trivially) true. Here you're just pointlessly dissecting something that was never said instead of focusing on what was said.

Basic storytelling 101 would have it be that you balance out "Show, Don't Tell" with "Tell, Don't Show".

This isn't general storytelling. This is a discussion specific to power scaling.

In a scaling context, dialogue (unless there's some strong indication that the character is lying for story purposes) always trumps the reader's subjective visual takeaways; you can show how different characters might compare in strength, but if the situation is vague and highly variable in interpretation, you can't know for sure until the author tells you how they compare.

That's why we often look to guidebooks, interviews, and in-series dialogue for confirmation. Feats aren't completely worthless, but they're absolutely trumped by explicit statements in every regard.

However, I won't claim that the dialogue expounding on whether Vegeta surpasses Goku is explicit. I think he does, but there is room for interpretation in this case.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

"Misread" opponent's strength. Goku. Recoome. Freeza. 18. Cell. Majin Buu.

He's misread his opponents' strength tons of times via still being confident in fighting them from believing himself superior or their strength not as great as it really is.

And besides that, dialogue can be just as subjective because it's being said from the characters' perspective. And if it doesn't line up with the actual scenes in question that well, their validity can be called into question because they don't fit what's actually physically happening in front of our eyes.

For example, you'll have plenty of people saying official multipliers aren't reliable and can be called into question BECAUSE they don't line up with given visual performances at times.

=

But at the end of the day, we're at an impasse due to our different methods. Agree to disagree?

[Miracles]

But the dialogue literally undermines Vegeta.

Bottom line: This is the audience reaction to Vegeta vs Moro (when Moro had his full power.)



Compare to the audience reaction to Goku vs Moro (again, after Moro started using his full power.)



So, either Goku's statement is contradicting these moments, or he isn't speaking literally in terms of power. Which given the nature of Vegeta's ability, is most likely the case.

Again, keep in mind Vegeta doesn't begin to do well against Moro at all until he's lost his strength. And the opposite is true for Moro against Goku.

None of those examples and dialogue change the narration that Goku has to surpass Vegeta again.
The conclusion was that Vegeta is above Goku. Regardless of what happened before.

It contradicts the idea that Vegeta did better against a full power Moro than Goku did (and would therefore be outright stronger than him).

One possible conclusion is that Goku's idea of surpassing Vegeta isn't inherently tied to his strength but rather his technique. That conclusion doesn't conflict with the narration at the beginning of the chapter that suggests Vegeta's strength isn't all that great against a full power Moro compared to Goku's Ultra Instinct earlier.

The story didn't say Vegeta did better against Moro than Goku.
Both were stated to be unable to "match/contend" with Moro physically.

This in no way changes the fact that the story said Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

[Dragon Wukong]

The story didn't say Vegeta did better against Moro than Goku.
Both were stated to be unable to "match/contend" with Moro physically.

This in no way changes the fact that the story said Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

No, but the story showing and saying that Goku managed to beat back Moro at his full power, (for a moment at least,) while Vegeta is derided for his inability to do anything against the goat at his full strength does paint a different picture as to where Vegeta's level of strength is compared to Goku's in Ultra Instinct. Ultimately, the dialogue points in two different directions IMO. The best interpretation in just my opinion anyhow is that "surpass" isn't referring literally to strength.

[The Undying]

"Misread" opponent's strength. Goku. Recoome. Freeza. 18. Cell. Majin Buu.

Goku relied on techniques and sneak attacks that Vegeta couldn't reasonably have known about. Vegeta knew he was outclassed by Freeza, but wasn't aware of the degree to which Freeza's transformations would increase his power. 18's strength couldn't be detected, and she won because she outlasted him. Vegeta fully comprehended Boo's power and actually half-won that fight, but Boo survived because his regeneration was much more effective than he thought.

Cell is the only situation I can think of where Vegeta genuinely did misread his level of power while fighting him.

My point isn't that exceptions don't exist. I'm saying that misreading the strength of his foes isn't something that Vegeta actually tends to do, so Piccolo's statement isn't nearly as questionable as it might seem.

And besides that, dialogue can be just as subjective because it's being said from the characters' perspective.

I won't dispute its subjectivity - that's why I differentiate between explicit and non-explicit dialogue, the latter of which is largely inferred by the audience - but the characters are ultimately the author's mouthpiece. If the writer didn't intend to lead his readers to those conclusions, he wouldn't have inserted those ideas into the story's script.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, but it's important that we broaden our perspective to authorial intent instead of restricting everything to in-universe reasoning. It's a fictional story, not real life.

[miguelnuva1]

"Misread" opponent's strength. Goku. Recoome. Freeza. 18. Cell. Majin Buu.

He's misread his opponents' strength tons of times via still being confident in fighting them from believing himself superior or their strength not as great as it really is.

Goku had the Kaioken, Frieza could alter his power by a ridiculous amount. Vegeta is even hoping that as a SS he'll out last Frieza.

With Recoome he was hoping for the best and admitted the Ginyu Force was stronger.

18 couldn't be sensed, Vegeta was high on SS and her power was much higher than it was suppose to be anyway.

Cell is correct.

With Buu he knew he was going to die he wanted to take Buu with him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't need lecturing on authorial intent, that's for sure. I've been arguing against Death of the Author for a long while where others would give up on WoG and say it's all worthless.

But I also believe in figuring out balance between that and what actually happens.

That "misread" bit? I'm not alone on that front. Plenty of people have pointed out that it comes across as a bit of "author's mouthpiece" given how untrue it is when one thinks of Vegeta's character throughout the franchise, seeing as how he's misread his opponents' strength plenty of times (doesn't matter HOW he did so and what circumstances were involved, only that he did). That's the unreliability of solely relying on dialogue. Dialogue matching the action and vice versa, essentially. And right now, there appears to be a disconnect on both fronts. The action doesn't perfectly line up with the dialogue, but the dialogue is equally at fault for not truly representing the action.

I believe Toyotaro's intention might to make it seem like Vegeta is stronger, but the dialogue and action aren't correlating enough to support that notion, at least for me personally.

[The Undying]

(doesn't matter HOW he did so and what circumstances were involved, only that he did)

It matters because the circumstances we're discussing are exactly the same circumstances that determine whether Vegeta was (or wasn't) accurately gauging his foe's current power. He was inaccurate on maybe one occasion.

There's a vast difference between misreading the strength of opponents and underestimating them based on extra circumstances that would have gone completely unaccounted for. Every character in Dragon Ball is guilty of the latter, so Toyotaro obviously wasn't referring to that.

Even if you could prove that the author's statements are inaccurate in regards to past information, all that really demonstrates is that the author retconned it - not that he didn't intend it. This is more important than "feats".

[Miracles]

The story didn't say Vegeta did better against Moro than Goku.
Both were stated to be unable to "match/contend" with Moro physically.

This in no way changes the fact that the story said Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

No, but the story showing and saying that Goku managed to beat back Moro at his full power, (for a moment at least,) while Vegeta is derided for his inability to do anything against the goat at his full strength does paint a different picture as to where Vegeta's level of strength is compared to Goku's in Ultra Instinct. Ultimately, the dialogue points in two different directions IMO. The best interpretation in just my opinion anyhow is that "surpass" isn't referring literally to strength.

If "surpass" wasn't referring to literal strength that specification would of been made known.
Just like it was disclosed how Goku and Vegeta's Blue was stronger than Moro, aside from his magic.
This wasn't the case between Goku and Vegeta's comparison.

That's why Goku pushing Moro back more doesn't determine his physical strength greater than Vegeta's.
We also see Vegeta push Moro back a little. Yet the attack still had no "effect."
This is the case with Goku. None of his attacks brought any change to the battle.
Therefore deemed "weak" and "unable to match/contend" with Moro just like Vegeta.

Yet the story concluded Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

[Dragon Wukong]

If "surpass" wasn't referring to literal strength that specification would of been made known.

You may feel that's the case, but I personally feel, based off all the other given evidence, that that's up for debate.

This wasn't the case between Goku and Vegeta's comparison.

But the whole conversation can be read as a comparison to Vegeta's ability to deal with Moro, rather than a view of his strength.

That's why Goku pushing Moro back more doesn't determine his physical strength greater than Vegeta's.
We also see Vegeta push Moro back a little. Yet the attack still had no "effect."
This is the case with Goku. None of his attacks brought any change to the battle.
Therefore deemed "weak" and "unable to match/contend" with Moro just like Vegeta.

But it's not about exclusively the visuals of Moro and Goku "pushing back" Moro. It's about the reactions and statements from the audience that are tied to that feat. Vegeta manages to push Moro back slightly with a single punch, 18 and Gohan then comment on how Vegeta's hit did nothing to Moro. Goku manages to push back Moro in what's a full power clash and Gohan cheers. You can't deny the implication behind that. Even if ultimately neither of them managed to defeat Moro at his full strength, those instances suggest that Goku is stronger than Vegeta currently, even still.

Yet the story concluded Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

Again, up to interpretation what Goku means by that.

So like I said, it's ultimately up for debate.

[Miracles]

If "surpass" wasn't referring to literal strength that specification would of been made known.

You may feel that's the case, but I personally feel, based off all the other given evidence, that that's up for debate.

This wasn't the case between Goku and Vegeta's comparison.

But the whole conversation can be read as a comparison to Vegeta's ability to deal with Moro, rather than a view of his strength.

It can't be read that way at all. Goku made a blatant comparison to Vegeta. Not in the way; or how Vegeta dealt with Moro. You are trying to push a certain interpretation into the story that isn't there. Surpass means Vegeta in totality. Since Goku isn't going to go train afterwards and figure out a way how to deal with Moro better than Vegeta. The dialogue literally made no distinctions, that's not a feeling but a fact.

That's why Goku pushing Moro back more doesn't determine his physical strength greater than Vegeta's.
We also see Vegeta push Moro back a little. Yet the attack still had no "effect."
This is the case with Goku. None of his attacks brought any change to the battle.
Therefore deemed "weak" and "unable to match/contend" with Moro just like Vegeta.

But it's not about exclusively the visuals of Moro and Goku "pushing back" Moro. It's about the reactions and statements from the audience that are tied to that feat. Vegeta manages to push Moro back slightly with a single punch, 18 and Gohan then comment on how Vegeta's hit did nothing to Moro. Goku manages to push back Moro in what's a full power clash and Gohan cheers. You can't deny the implication behind that. Even if ultimately neither of them managed to defeat Moro at his full strength, those instances suggest that Goku is stronger than Vegeta currently, even still.

Yet the story concluded Goku needs to surpass Vegeta.

Again, up to interpretation what Goku means by that.

So like I said, it's ultimately up for debate.

This too isn't up for debate. Goku pushing Moro back in a Ki struggle, with Gohan noting so, does not mean it "effected" Moro.
Both those instances you are trying to compare do not show nor state Moro "effected" at all. Which are false equivalences.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

(doesn't matter HOW he did so and what circumstances were involved, only that he did)

It matters because the circumstances we're discussing are exactly the same circumstances that determine whether Vegeta was (or wasn't) accurately gauging his foe's current power. He was inaccurate on maybe one occasion.

There's a vast difference between misreading the strength of opponents and underestimating them based on extra circumstances that would have gone completely unaccounted for. Every character in Dragon Ball is guilty of the latter, so Toyotaro obviously wasn't referring to that.

Even if you could prove that the author's statements are inaccurate in regards to past information, all that really demonstrates is that the author retconned it - not that he didn't intend it. This is more important than "feats".

Vegeta misreads how strong Goku really is. Vegeta misreads how strong Freeza really is. Vegeta misreads how strong 18 really is. Vegeta misreads how strong Cell really is. Vegeta misreads how strong Pure/Kid Buu really is. Nearly every major opponent, Vegeta has misread how strong they really are.

So WHY are statements more important than feats? Already, one can put dialogue into question given the backgrounds of the characters and the authorial intent, as well as how people interpret them.

Just like feats, which are subject to the author getting information wrong and the characters being inconsistent.

Why are statements that much more important? Just because it spells out something in word? Does the action not matter? Why does it matter less if we're supposed to be paying attention to the visual medium? Why do people always accuse things of "always telling and not showing" if telling is the "truer to the text" kind of means of conveying information?

You're going in the exact opposite direction I am, placing an over-emphasis on the statements and not the visuals that accompany them based on some arbitrary measure of "it's truer to authorial intent". But my counter to that is that, given Toyotaro's primary focus being his art and the flow of the art as a manga artist, his scene composition deserves greater emphasis because it's the medium that he's most accustomed to conveying information through and is what he puts the most effort into.

[The Undying]

Vegeta misreads how strong Goku really is. Vegeta misreads how strong Freeza really is. Vegeta misreads how strong 18 really is. Vegeta misreads how strong Cell really is. Vegeta misreads how strong Pure/Kid Buu really is.

Repeating the same things over and over (that several users already addressed) isn't suddenly going to make them true. You needn't look any further than Goku vs. Vegeta for a perfect illustration of that point - Goku multiplied his actual strength, but Vegeta didn't misread his strength. Zarbon was hiding an additional transformation, but Vegeta didn't misread his strength. Freeza had additional forms, but Vegeta was fully aware of his own inferiority.

Even 18, a character that Vegeta misread based on his lacking knowledge of Android physiology, only won because she outlasted Vegeta.

None of these examples besides Cell show that Vegeta ever misread his opponents. Piccolo's statement only becomes inaccurate if you twist his words to more general concepts like "underestimation", but that relies on something he never actually said, so then it just becomes mental gymnastics on your part.

So WHY are statements more important than feats?

Because they're an extension of the author's intent. It's that simple. You also haven't shown any of them to be wrong, but even if you did, it only proves that the author is currently scaling these characters differently than he might have in the past.

You're going in the exact opposite direction I am, placing an over-emphasis on the statements and not the visuals that accompany them based on some arbitrary measure of "it's truer to authorial intent".

Bruh, read what I'm saying before you respond to it.

Again, nobody's contesting that visuals matter. But if those visuals make it ambiguous as to whether character X surpasses character Z, but the author specifically tells me that X is stronger than Z, it's unreasonable to assume he's lying for shits and giggles. That would only make your assumptions completely incongruent with the actual story.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And again, where you find those examples wanting, I don't. I think they're exactly what I was talking about because they, quite literally, show Vegeta misreading opponents' strengths. He misreads how strong they actually end up being compared to what he initially thought, hence that he literally misreads; no ifs ands or buts about it on my end, he misread them flat-out regardless of the circumstances for how he did so.

And besides that, I think that the visuals are clear enough and the statements vague enough that it supports different interpretations, especially since there is contradicting dialogue as showcased.

But I'm getting tired of this back and forth. You don't believe in my methodology and how I've presented the facts, which is perfectly sound, and I don't believe in yours and how you've presented the facts, which is perfectly sound.

Good day, can we move on please? No more last words? We're clearly not getting anywhere and and not convincing each other of anything beyond thinking ourselves right and the other wrong.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku also said he needed to surpass Vegeta right after he just kicked his ass with KKx3.

Goku's UI Sign and his trainning are not where he wants it to be. Vegeta has a stronger version of Blue and a technique that will drain Goku if they fought.

Another comparison, did Trunks surpass Cell.or Grade 2 Vegeta with Grade 3 just because he was stronger? No.

Even Raditz who was a God to the Z warriors lost that fight because Goku and Piccolo had better skills and techniques.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yeah it's pretty clear to anyone that Goku is still stronger than Vegeta even though the latter had the superior showing just by robbing Moro of his strength.

[The Undying]

I think they're exactly what I was talking about because they, quite literally, show Vegeta misreading opponents' strengths.

They quite literally show the opposite. If I see an empty glass, assess it as an empty glass, then somebody walks over and pours water into it, I didn't suddenly misread the glass.

The literal interpretation is exactly what I've been expounding on the whole time.

In any case, this is a discussion based on methodology; something that we indeed fundamentally disagree on. I haven't yet fully elaborated on my position about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but wanted to address this general topic.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think they're exactly what I was talking about because they, quite literally, show Vegeta misreading opponents' strengths.

They quite literally show the opposite. If I see an empty glass, assess it as an empty glass, then somebody walks over and pours water into it, I didn't suddenly misread the glass.

The literal interpretation is exactly what I've been expounding on the whole time.

In any case, this is a discussion based on methodology; something that we indeed fundamentally disagree on. I haven't yet fully elaborated on my position about Vegeta surpassing Goku, but wanted to address this general topic.

Okay, time to explain why it's fine from my perspective.

A glass isn't a person. And these people actually DO have full access to the strength that they showcase later on to disprove Vegeta's confidence in taking them on. Their lack of showcasing it at the start doesn't invalidate the misreading angle, as they're fully capable of showing it later on without outside influence.

Because this power is fully accessible but simply not shown immediately, Vegeta misreads their strength. A better example going off of your own: there's a hidden compartment of water in a water bottle that I'm not aware of and I think the bottle is empty. However, when I go to dry the inside fully, I instead find myself soaking the cloth and my hand.

I misread how much water was actually in there. The water was always in there, I just wasn't aware and judged it too early,

THIS is how I view the "misread" analogy. You don't have to agree, but this is how I view it.

[The Undying]

A glass isn't a person.

The analogy still holds.

We can even extend that analogy to further reflect what we're talking about - imagine some weird scenario where the glass is sentient and has a self-filling water dispenser that it can activate at any time.

Now imagine the glass is empty at first, I say it's empty, and I'm completely unaware of the water dispenser. How would I be inaccurate by calling it an empty glass if it really was an empty glass?

This is what I mean when I say none of these scenarios call Vegeta's observations into question. If I misjudged the glass from the start, then I can say it was a Perfect Cell situation; Vegeta totally did misread his power in that example.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Since we can't even agree on the analogy, we'll have to leave it at that.

=

Really, I'm left wondering how Goku and Vegeta compare to the likes of other past villains and comaprable characters in the manga.

For example, I'm not sure I can believe that SSBE Vegeta is really so strong as to approach the likes of SSB Vegito, even if it is the one from the Future Trunks Arc. As the latest movie shows, Fusions are still stupidly strong compared to their Fusees. Like, many several times over stupidly strong.

That ain't percentage or addition. That's multiplication to a massive degree.