Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Yep, this actually seems like the only reasonable explanation.

It's in line with Piccolo's jump in the Android arc as well, where he's on par with SS Goku and might've grown stronger if could train with, say, a hypothetical SS2 Goku.

But still, to think that Piccolo was just a good training partner away from surpassing Cell and Buu sounds crazy.

My man, you are talking about the character that grew dozens of times stronger twice in the series before. It's not crazy.

[DestructoDisc]

17 beat up 7-3 (Moro), he was fighting Moro's real power not just his techniques, it depends on how strong Moro was when he let 7-3 grab him, I guess it happened sometime during those two months before the final invasion, because 7-3 should've ran out of Moro's juice.

So 17 has to be at least stronger than Moro from the 1st invasion.

That 7-3 was already beaten up by Gohan and Piccolo before 17 started fighting him.

[Dragon Wukong]

17 beat up 7-3 (Moro), he was fighting Moro's real power not just his techniques, it depends on how strong Moro was when he let 7-3 grab him, I guess it happened sometime during those two months before the final invasion, because 7-3 should've ran out of Moro's juice.

So 17 has to be at least stronger than Moro from the 1st invasion.

My assumption was that Seven-three wasn't actually using the strength Moro installed in him as a back-up, only the energy absorption ability. That's what it seemed like to me anyhow. I could be wrong however.

My man, you are talking about the character that grew dozens of times stronger twice in the series before. It's not crazy.

To be fair, both of Piccolo's more massive jumps in strength after the Saiyan saga came from absorption, and by the Buu saga it definitely seemed as though he had hit his limit in the original series.

[Miracles]

The dialogue stated through Moro that Goku reached his limit. Merus pointing out the fact that Goku can't make the most out of UI with sheer power has nothing to do with the fact that he was at his limit. You are again trying to conflate separate issues.


They aren't separate issues, they're entirely dependent on each other. Goku couldn't make the most out of UI because he was trying to finish the fight with sheer power because he was at his limit.

That was stated after it was already revealed that Goku was at his limit due to Moro.
Goku using raw power instead of UI to it's utmost is due to his non discipline.

It's not ambiguous at all. Your reason for even thinking Goku talking about surpassing Vegeta in tech and not strength is invalid.
Since the tech doesn't work on Goku but only on those who absorb and fuse. You are putting your own thoughts into the story.


Really? Am I now?

Exhibit A:



Aaaaaaand Exhibit B:



Hm. Sure looks like spirit fission can work on a lot more than just a fusion or absorption, doesn't it? But what do I know, maybe these pages don't actually exist. Anyhow, that ultimately doesn't matter in my argument anyways. Goku can't maintain Ultra Instinct very well right now. Vegeta's technique is what got closest to saving the day, and his Super Saiyan Blue got stronger. It's an entirely plausible interpretation that Goku won't consider himself as having "surpassed" Vegeta until he can finally use Ultra Instinct properly and not struggle to maintain it. After all, there's no point in Ultra Instinct Sign being stronger than Vegeta if he slips out of it like during the fight with Moro in the end.

I'm gonna be honest, it sounds a lot less like I'm putting my own thoughts into the story and more like you blatantly ignoring valid points to suit your narrative. Please, pull up the page where Vegeta says it doesn't work unless the opponent's power is absorbed/fused. Feel free to try and back up your words with dialogue or imagery to prove that I'm somehow just being biased with everything I say, and that the level of evidence to what you're proposing makes it true beyond a reasonable doubt.

How about you quit being so smug and dismissive about this topic when it's possible you're wrong. I'm not even saying it's impossible that I'm wrong, but it's awfully presumptuous to say what you're saying given only a single chapter, and when there's plenty of prior evidence to the contrary.

Those images you posted have no context to them. That's reaching.
It does not usurp what the story already stated about Vegeta's tech working on fusion/absorbers.

[ZombieVito]

To be fair, both of Piccolo's more massive jumps in strength after the Saiyan saga came from absorption, and by the Buu saga it definitely seemed as though he had hit his limit in the original series.

No they were not.

[TheSaiyanGod]

.

We have literally zero context for these pages. The description of the technique is clear enough to assume that it works only against characters who use the power of others, this is reinforced when Vegeta says he could separate Piccolo and Nail.

And even if it worked against any opponent, it would be OOC for Vegeta to use against characters that don't use absorption or fusion. He specifically says that he only used Spirit Fission because he wanted a fair fight with Moro using his own power, because absorption and fusion do not represent someone's true power.

And maintaining the Ultra Instinct only became a problem against Moro because the goat was too strong for Goku, that does not fit the equation of the "Vegeta surpassed Goku" statement. This and things like "Goku was talking about the technique" are not circumstances or interpretations used in the narrative, it is you letting your thoughts interfere in the analysis of what is actually said by Goku, which was simple and direct

[DBZ Macky]

When did we get explanations for 17? I don't think that's true. With Frieza, yes (because of him being a prodigy alien that doesn't train). But 17 never got any explanation whatsoever in both manga and anime about his insane gains. All he has is pure speculation from people who just give claims so that 17's power up makes some sense (even though it doesn't). He is that strong because the plot needed him to be. Just like how Piccolo is that strong in the Moro Saga because the plot needed him to be at that strength.

You're right, we never did get anything explaining how 17 got that strong. But it's in line with how the androids didn't train before just like Freeza so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

After discussing it with you guys, I actually think Zombievito's simple explanation makes sense. But yeah, it definitely feels like a "the plot dictates for him to be that strong" moment.

To be fair, both of Piccolo's more massive jumps in strength after the Saiyan saga came from absorption, and by the Buu saga it definitely seemed as though he had hit his limit in the original series.

Piccolo's jump from just the 3 year training was arguably much greater than either of the boosts he got through fusion. And then there's his whole "I feel like I can fight Freeza now, so use the second wish to bring me on Namek" moment on Kaio's planet. But yeah, it definitely seemed like he plateaued by the time Cell became perfect.

[dragonball0900]

You're right, we never did get anything explaining how 17 got that strong. But it's in line with how the androids didn't train before just like Freeza so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

After discussing it with you guys, I actually think Zombievito's simple explanation makes sense. But yeah, it definitely feels like a "the plot dictates for him to be that strong" moment.

I mean, even if that reasoning for 17's gains makes sense (and I agree, it does make a lot of sense), the story never explained it, not even in a single line (both anime and manga). I really wish there was some explanation regarding his big gains, because it's clear that it was just an asspull so that he could be relevant in the story.

And yeah, Piccolo training with a much stronger partner gives a very good explanation on why he is that strong. Training with SSJ Goku made him reach close to that level according to Krillin. Training with Ultimate Gohan made him unrecognizable according to Goku. Meanwhile, training by himself barely did anything good to him as shown in the Buu Saga or in the early arcs from Super.

[The Undying]

You're right, we never did get anything explaining how 17 got that strong.

Not entirely true. In Volume 8's bonus chapter, Kuririn overtly suggests that 17's monster taming (including training with the surviving Cell Juniors) is what made him so strong. That might not be everyone's favorite explanation, but it's something. The manga tends to elaborate on these things more than the anime.

As for Vegeta outright being stronger than Goku, even if that's not specifically said in the dialogue, there are more than enough statements that would naturally lend to that conclusion. Occam's Razor suggests that he did surpass him in strength; again, Moro "best meal" comment should refer to all of his prospective meals unless the reader posits extra assumptions that seem contextually misplaced.

[Dragon Wukong]

That was stated after it was already revealed that Goku was at his limit due to Moro.
Goku using raw power instead of UI's to it's utmost is his undisciplined emotions.

Ok? Either way Goku's attacks started being less effective against Moro. Goku was still originally able to damage him and push him back in a clash that used Moro's full strength.

Those images you posted have no context to them. That's reaching.
It does not usurp what the story already stated about Vegeta's tech working on fusion/absorbers.

"Reaching" is a poor word to use when I have actual images from two separate chapters to back me up, from moments after it's been made clear that Vegeta is trying to learn Spirit Fission. Feel free to also look at the chapter itself and verify the fact that the context is Vegeta is training to use his new technique, and the moment he applies it on Hatska and his clones is the moment elder Pybara feels Vegeta has mastered the technique.

And yes, the story said Vegeta's technique works on fusion/absorbers. Nothing and no one at any point said that was the only application. The technique is extra handy against Moro because due to the added benefit of being able to send that energy back to its original point/state. But there's some evidence (i.e. the evidence I've provided that you wish to dismiss) that the technique can be applied to separating another's own spirit (read: ki/energy) as well.

Y'know what, how about we just end this exchange. It's clear to me that no matter what chapter pages or fights or dialogue or ANYTHING I pull up to counter your arguments you're just going to disagree or say my arguments aren't valid. You are dead firm on being dismissive of any argument I make when it comes to this topic. And I clearly can't convince you otherwise, the same way you can't convince me otherwise. So what's your goal exactly if you keep continuing this debate at this point?

[Hugo Boss]

As for Vegeta outright being stronger than Goku, even if that's not specifically said in the dialogue, there are more than enough statements that would naturally lend to that conclusion. Occam's Razor suggests that he did surpass him in strength; again, Moro "best meal" comment should refer to all of his prospective meals unless the reader posits extra assumptions that seem contextually misplaced.

This sums up this debacle very well. Perhaps the idea has some resistance because feats sometimes misleads one’s judgment, but that’s why I think subtext is a much more reliable way to discuss powerlevels when we don’t have direct statements, even if it’s not perfect. I don’t even think the people debating here have preference over some character or something like that. Just a misconception.

[DBZ Macky]

Not entirely true. In Volume 8's bonus chapter, Kuririn overtly suggests that 17's monster taming (including training with the surviving Cell Juniors) is what made him so strong. That might not be everyone's favorite explanation, but it's something. The manga tends to elaborate on these things more than the anime.

Ah, I was aware of the bonus chapter but didn't know about that. Thanks for sharing but yeah, that's a pretty weird explanation.

As for Vegeta outright being stronger than Goku, even if that's not specifically said in the dialogue, there are more than enough statements that would naturally lend to that conclusion. Occam's Razor suggests that he did surpass him in strength; again, Moro "best meal" comment should refer to all of his prospective meals unless the reader posits extra assumptions that seem contextually misplaced.

It usually would be as simple as that. But the "best meal" line seems more like an afterthought compared to when we actually see in the actual battle. Even if you want to say Moro was still stronger, Goku was close enough to Moro that the battle actually felt like it could go either way.

This is what supports Goku being closer to Moro than Vegeta at the very least:

1. Moro not being able to even take Goku's energy - Goku wouldn't be Goku's "second best meal" if Moro can't even devour his energy.
2. Piccolo commenting on how Goku's clearly faster than Moro.
3. Goku overpowering Moro in their energy clash.
4. Moro actually bleeding when hit by Goku.
5. The general implication that Goku's running on fumes and losing power by the minute - and his Ultra Instinct power being unstable is ultimately what makes him not be able to defeat Moro.
6. Piccolo commenting how the gap between Moro and Vegeta was large enough that the latter would never be able to surpass it through mere training.
7. Moro stating that he would devour Vegeta's energy, implying he isn't fast enough to stop that from happening
8. Vegeta relying on the Spirit Fission technique in general, in fact, the entire narrative of him learning a new skill instead of just focusing on getting stronger etc.

I can see how this discussion can get tiresome, to the point that everyone has posted enough images that you could almost read the entire chapter here, but it's definitely not cut-and-dry enough to just jump to the simplest explanation.

Especially when the "simplest explanation" isn't even that simple. "You could be my best meal yet" is much more vague than "I don't believe you can defeat Freeza in that form", and I'm sure all of you might know how many debates the latter statement has resulted in till this day.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Both the themes of Spirit Fission and Vegeta's strength have been misunderstood because of visual feats x What the narrative wants to tell. Although there are scenes where Vegeta apparently uses SF on Hatska, the description of the technique is that it works on people who use other people's powers. And although Goku's performance against Moro looks better, it is said several times in the chapter that Vegeta's strength surpasses that of Goku.

In this case, the narrative will always be above subjective things like visual feats, because it is literally what the author wants to tell and does not depend on personal interpretations

again, Moro "best meal" comment should refer to all of his prospective meals unless the reader posits extra assumptions that seem contextually misplaced.

Add to that the fact that Moro said in Namek that there were no beings as powerful as Goku and Vegeta in his era.

So, any opponent stronger than the pre-invasion Saiyans could be considered Moro's best meal, including UIO Goku, making his statement much less meaningful and a little pointless if that were the case. However, "best meal" being used for a general context of all the sources of energy already found by Moro is much more in line with the way he refers to those meals

[FishermanJohnWest]

This is what supports Goku being closer to Moro than Vegeta at the very least:

1. Moro not being able to even take Goku's energy - Goku wouldn't be Goku's "second best meal" if Moro can't even devour his energy.

He actually was taking his energy



And even commented on Goku power



So he knows about Goku power and was absorbing his energy

2. Piccolo commenting on how Goku's clearly faster than Moro.

That was when both of them were holding back. At full power, neither one of them where faster, but once Goku lost his speed, he got stomped and relied on more pure power which still got him no where






3. Goku overpowering Moro in their energy clash.

Which doesn't mean anything since Moro was playing it safe with Goku and was cautious with him



4. Moro actually bleeding when hit by Goku.

That doesn't mean anything considering Goku hit him multiple times while Vegeta hit him once, pointless comparison, espically seeing how Moro was hurt more from Vegeta punch and reacted to that more in comparison to Goku himself, and goes further to say cause of that 1 punch, Vegeta will make the best meal

5. The general implication that Goku's running on fumes and losing power by the minute - and his Ultra Instinct power being unstable is ultimately what makes him not be able to defeat Moro.

Before he ran out of fumes, he was unable to do anything to Moro, barely able to do damage despite hitting him multiple times, he stood no chance, and once his speed went, he got stomped power wise.

6. Piccolo commenting how the gap between Moro and Vegeta was large enough that the latter would never be able to surpass it through mere training.

Doesn't mean anything when Moro, Goku and Piccolo say Vegeta > Goku

7. Moro stating that he would devour Vegeta's energy, implying he isn't fast enough to stop that from happening

That doesn't imply anything, Moro says he is going to devour everyone energy.

8. Vegeta relying on the Spirit Fission technique in general, in fact, the entire narrative of him learning a new skill instead of just focusing on getting stronger etc.

Yet he got stronger when honing his spirit


Vegeta was smart for relying on spirit fission rather then duke it out with Moro seeing how power wise he was below him anyways

[FishermanJohnWest]

The arguments for why Omen Goku > Vegeta are honestly poor

Just cause Vegeta relied on his technique straight up rather then duking it out, people downplay him by saying Goku did better yet didn't see what Vegeta can do power wise against Moro after the first punch and getting hit by Moro, yet statements from Moro, Goku and Piccolo say it's Vegeta > Goku

People are just ignoring what the series is showing and going by their own head canon

[ZombieVito]

Moro straight up says Vegeta can't beat him with his power (Before Vegeta reveals Spirit Fission or whatever it's called) yet UIO Goku matched this Moro.

Why is there even a discussion about this? UIO Goku > SSBE Vegeta is obvious.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Moro straight up says Vegeta can't beat him with his power (Before Vegeta reveals Spirit Fission or whatever it's called) yet UIO Goku matched this Moro.

Why is there even a discussion about this? UIO Goku > SSBE Vegeta is obvious.

Moro disagrees

And Moro thinks Vegeta will make the greatest meal, proving power wise > Omen. Vegeta doesn't need to match Moro blow to blow to prove he is > Omen

[Miracles]

That was stated after it was already revealed that Goku was at his limit due to Moro.
Goku using raw power instead of UI's to it's utmost is his undisciplined emotions.

Ok? Either way Goku's attacks started being less effective against Moro. Goku was still originally able to damage him and push him back in a clash that used Moro's full strength.

Those images you posted have no context to them. That's reaching.
It does not usurp what the story already stated about Vegeta's tech working on fusion/absorbers.

"Reaching" is a poor word to use when I have actual images from two separate chapters to back me up, from moments after it's been made clear that Vegeta is trying to learn Spirit Fission. Feel free to also look at the chapter itself and verify the fact that the context is Vegeta is training to use his new technique, and the moment he applies it on Hatska and his clones is the moment elder Pybara feels Vegeta has mastered the technique.

And yes, the story said Vegeta's technique works on fusion/absorbers. Nothing and no one at any point said that was the only application. The technique is extra handy against Moro because due to the added benefit of being able to send that energy back to its original point/state. But there's some evidence (i.e. the evidence I've provided that you wish to dismiss) that the technique can be applied to separating another's own spirit (read: ki/energy) as well.

Y'know what, how about we just end this exchange. It's clear to me that no matter what chapter pages or fights or dialogue or ANYTHING I pull up to counter your arguments you're just going to disagree or say my arguments aren't valid. You are dead firm on being dismissive of any argument I make when it comes to this topic. And I clearly can't convince you otherwise, the same way you can't convince me otherwise. So what's your goal exactly if you keep continuing this debate at this point?

It's the hope that people understand, Dragonball is a story first. "Feats" are ever rarely used to power scale. It's the same in this instance. My friend, I don't mean to dismiss your arguments. I acknowledge that Goku pushed back Moro more than Vegeta. However, the narration still dictates that does not determine who is stronger between Goku and Vegeta. As the plot stated, Goku is still the one who needs to "surpass Vegeta again."That is a conclusive and clear claim from the intrigue itself.

Now notice that word "again" from Goku. In context, Goku and Vegeta are always trying to outdo each other in battle power. This has been their whole rivalry. Jaco even confirms that Goku is going to achieve supremacy over Vegeta again by training even with no "baddie butt to kick." So, to say Goku was talking about surpassing Vegeta in any other way isn't factual. Vegeta's technique was defined to work on those who rely on the power of others. Yeah, it didn't say that it only works on those types. However, that's all it claimed the technique can do right now. So, to assume Goku was talking about surpassing a technique, the story routinely beat over our heads, for an absorber like Moro, is nothing more than guess work. There is no context to Vegeta's training showing that it works on individuals who don't absorb. All we see is the end results, not knowing the steps taken to get to that point. Goku said he needs to surpass the individual "again." Not the technique of that person, not the way that man beat Moro but the Saiyan himself, Vegeta.

Goku's push back of Moro and making him bleed a little after multiple hits was deemed "weak" and "unable to match" Moro. With UI omen, With UI omen not utilized at it's fullest and no UI Omen. It was all in vain, according to the dialogue. Since the narration authorized it to be so. The point, the conclusive words explain the results of the action. Depicting a guide for the audience, directing us to the path of the battles. Neither led us to Goku being greater than Vegeta but they led us to Vegeta being greater than Goku.

Sorry for the rant...

[miguelnuva1]

Vegwta honing his spirit didn't make him stronger in the traditional sense of Dragonball.

Traditional is what Goku did going from a 10 to a 15 for example.

Vegeta stayed a 10 but now what were are seeing is Vegeta is a 10 and is able to strike like a 10.

Goku as a 15 only fights like an 8 or a 9.

Or after yardrat Goku was able to fight with his full power and Vegeta has being able to out his full power out.

Vegeta's ki didn't increase what he had just got stronger.

[p-hyvo]

How strong is MUI is suppose to be over Omen?

I never expected Omen to return so I never thought about this and I just put it on the ToP very close to MUI.

Imo is x2 in the manga and x5 in the anime