"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ssj3kakarot]

I feel like Dende is dangerously close to the 'character about to be killed off soon' given how close he is to the battlefield.

He' definitely at major risk, but I think he'll manage to get Goku and Vegeta back on their feet, but just barely.

And then, Moro will kill Dende off to prevent him from healing the others cause dramatic effect. Esca can be used to replace him if needed.

Honestly, at least Krillin has senzu's, though he probably isn't going to be showing up for a bit.

I really like the idea of Dende healing Vegeta, brings back some Namek saga vibes.Honestly though, killing Dende might be the last straw for Vegeta. This whole saga is about his atonement for the deaths of Namekians by his hand all those years ago. As he sees Dende's life fade from Dende's eyes, the saiyan princes eyes turn blood red, and Moro suddenly remembers what it is experience fear!

[DiscountDabi]

Ok, so I’ve seen a lot of people complaining about how Moro’s Copy ability simply has no drawbacks for no reason. Its almost like they didn’t read what Moro said. Granted it could have been reflected better but still.

He said “Did I fail to mention that the abilities Seven-Three Copied are now mine forever?”. Now, if he meant all of his abilities then we would have said “The Abilities that I copy are now mine forever” instead of specifying Seven-Three.

I’ve also seen people complaining that Moro can use Regeneration which is a genetic ability and not technique based almost like they haven’t been reading the manga. It was explicitly shown that Seven-Three’s Ability can alter his body if the ability requires it. It was actually the first time we saw it used on that planet of hedgehog like creatures.

Seriously, if you are gonna call plot points idiotic or poorly done at least make sure you know what you’re talking about. There is plenty more to criticize in this arc.

[Dragon Wukong]

Yeah, the implication very much seems to be that only the two other abilities Seven-Three had copied at the time became a part of Moro's default moveset. That would leave Piccolo and Gohan's abilities.

I assume Vegeta's current skillset is on the usual 30 minute timer.

[miguelnuva1]

Can't speak for Vegeta just yet...but Goku's training didn't really mean dick this time around in terms of being able to defeat the villain. All he did was learn to control UIO and then raised his power by a little bit. If he can't break out MUI by the next chapter then Goku will actually remain useless for once and amusingly, we just might see Goku acknowledging how Krillin & Yamcha feel in these situations.
This might have been avoided if Goku & Vegeta had used fusion instead of trying for ambitious, individual results in the first place. Vegetto/Gogeta Blue would have made short work of Moro and been sensible enough not to let him go and absorb 7-3. It also would've prevented Vegeta from learning forced spirit fission thus Moro would never know it either to split their fusion.
It seems that the Saiyan's hubris really fucked them against this foe. Maybe this will finally shake up their philosophy of one-on-one bouts against opponents all the time?

This is a massive flaw from both Goku and Vegeta. They should have attempted Gogeta or vegito several times in the series and they almost lose as a result.

Gogeta with Kid Buu
Gogeta again with Frieza
Gogeta with Jiren
Gogeta with Moro

It's luck that always pulls them out, Frieza ran out of power, Goku got pushed into UI and we'll see how they beat Moro.

Even taking Old Moro and Frieza off the table they should have fused againts Jiren for sure and they should have fused instead of trying to charge ss3 for a minute.

Gogeta wasn’t an option for half of those since Vegeta didn’t know the Fusion Dance. Even in the Broly movie, Vegeta messed up twice and they lost an hour. Unless you mean Vegito for Buu and there was no Potara around for Freeza. Fusion also breeds dependency as seen with Goten and Trunks to the point Vegeta called them out on it.

Fusion was taking off the table in the TOP since as Whis pointed out, if the fusion lost they lose two fighters at the same time. Which is why Beerus veto fusing 17 and 18.

Vegeta said he saw fusion dance from the other world and then Buu went to sleep before they started fighting unless that was anime only.

For the TOP after Jiren powered up and they couldn't touch him they were going to be thrown out anyway. Gogeta would have at least matched Jiren and kept 17 and Frieza safe.

And Vegeta is an idoit. Fusion does not create dependency, Goten and Trunks simply don't train. If Goten and Trunks trained on their own and then used fusion they'd be way more valuable than Goku and Vegeta.

[HeroR]

This is a massive flaw from both Goku and Vegeta. They should have attempted Gogeta or vegito several times in the series and they almost lose as a result.

Gogeta with Kid Buu
Gogeta again with Frieza
Gogeta with Jiren
Gogeta with Moro

It's luck that always pulls them out, Frieza ran out of power, Goku got pushed into UI and we'll see how they beat Moro.

Even taking Old Moro and Frieza off the table they should have fused againts Jiren for sure and they should have fused instead of trying to charge ss3 for a minute.

Gogeta wasn’t an option for half of those since Vegeta didn’t know the Fusion Dance. Even in the Broly movie, Vegeta messed up twice and they lost an hour. Unless you mean Vegito for Buu and there was no Potara around for Freeza. Fusion also breeds dependency as seen with Goten and Trunks to the point Vegeta called them out on it.

Fusion was taking off the table in the TOP since as Whis pointed out, if the fusion lost they lose two fighters at the same time. Which is why Beerus veto fusing 17 and 18.

Vegeta said he saw fusion dance from the other world and then Buu went to sleep before they started fighting unless that was anime only.

For the TOP after Jiren powered up and they couldn't touch him they were going to be thrown out anyway. Gogeta would have at least matched Jiren and kept 17 and Frieza safe.

And Vegeta is an idoit. Fusion does not create dependency, Goten and Trunks simply don't train. If Goten and Trunks trained on their own and then used fusion they'd be way more valuable than Goku and Vegeta.

Seeing isn’t the same as learning. And nothing suggests that they would have gotten it right the first time.

TOP could be won by numbers. So they never had to beat Jiren directly. They could just outlast him. And again, nothing suggests that they would have done the dance right.

And they would burn through the Fusion faster. Super Saiyan 3 already only last five minutes.

[miguelnuva1]

Gogeta wasn’t an option for half of those since Vegeta didn’t know the Fusion Dance. Even in the Broly movie, Vegeta messed up twice and they lost an hour. Unless you mean Vegito for Buu and there was no Potara around for Freeza. Fusion also breeds dependency as seen with Goten and Trunks to the point Vegeta called them out on it.

Fusion was taking off the table in the TOP since as Whis pointed out, if the fusion lost they lose two fighters at the same time. Which is why Beerus veto fusing 17 and 18.

Vegeta said he saw fusion dance from the other world and then Buu went to sleep before they started fighting unless that was anime only.

For the TOP after Jiren powered up and they couldn't touch him they were going to be thrown out anyway. Gogeta would have at least matched Jiren and kept 17 and Frieza safe.

And Vegeta is an idoit. Fusion does not create dependency, Goten and Trunks simply don't train. If Goten and Trunks trained on their own and then used fusion they'd be way more valuable than Goku and Vegeta.

Seeing isn’t the same as learning. And nothing suggests that they would have gotten it right the first time.

TOP could be won by numbers. So they never had to beat Jiren directly. They could just outlast him. And again, nothing suggests that they would have done the dance right.

And they would burn through the Fusion faster. Super Saiyan 3 already only last five minutes.

Ss3 lasted 5 minutes in a child body, SSB in the broly movie lasted 30 minutes as far as we knew.

Regardless 17 had to self destruct, Vegeta was knocked from the ring and Frieza had to hide. They wouldn't have done any worse had they practiced fusion and Jiren would have waited considering he let the spirit bomb form and let Vegeta charge the Final Flash.

With all that being said my argument was that it would have been better to fuse not that it was the only solution.

Gogeta would have beaten Jiren.

[DestructoDisc]

Why didn't Moro kill the androids? He said that he didn't kill the other Z fighters because he wants to steal their energies, but he can't do this with the androids and he knows it, so it makes no sense why he decided to keep them alive.

[Lionel]

As commendable as Dende's proactive efforts here are, wouldn't his potential death here cause some enormous setbacks? Namek's Dragon Balls are unusable at the moment and if the kami of Earth dies then those will be made inert as well. Esca would need to be made temporary kami to reconstitute the Dragon Balls. Come to think of it though, Shenron already resurrected the Namekians once, Dende included. They might need to use the Super Dragon Balls then.

Alternatively -- and I would appreciate the nod of remembrance to this idea from Toyotaro -- they could have Elder Kaioshin transfer his life to Moori who then proceeds to reconstitute Namek's Dragon Balls and use them for resurrecting everyone who died, either directly or indirectly (to include Elder Kaioshin here), as a result of Moro's schemes.

Why didn't Moro kill the androids? He said that he didn't kill the other Z fighters because he wants to steal their energies, but he can't do this with the androids and he knows it, so it makes no sense why he decided to keep them alive.

Was about to bring this up as well. The cyborgs have an artificial energy source. Since Moro only sees others in shades of consumptiveness and potential worth as subordinates, they should have been placed on the chopping block sooner than Jaco. Does Moro hold such little regard for them that he can't be bothered to finish them off? It would have been easy enough for those finger projectiles to be made powerful enough to kill them.

[DestructoDisc]

Was about to bring this up as well. The cyborgs have an artificial energy source. Since Moro only sees others in shades of consumptiveness and potential worth as subordinates, they should have been placed on the chopping block sooner than Jaco. Does Moro hold such little regard for them that he can't be bothered to finish them off? It would have been easy enough for those finger projectiles to be made powerful enough to kill them.

That can't be since Jaco is way weaker than them and Moro was about to finish him off. It's just bad and forced writing that Moro didn't kill the android siblings and it makes no real sense at all.

[Matches Malone]

I really like the idea of Dende healing Vegeta, brings back some Namek saga vibes.Honestly though, killing Dende might be the last straw for Vegeta. This whole saga is about his atonement for the deaths of Namekians by his hand all those years ago. As he sees Dende's life fade from Dende's eyes, the saiyan princes eyes turn blood red, and Moro suddenly remembers what it is experience fear!

I didn't even think of this possibility. Moro killing Dende would without a doubt be the biggest and last mistake he makes.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Honestly, I think they just didn't want to kill off the androids so they just settled for Moro beating them. I have no idea why he didn't kill them given he can't drain them, other than the idea the writers don't have any plans on killing off the androids in this arc.

[emperior]

The Namekian DBs got upgraded on New Namek. They already used those to resurrect all the Earthlings back in the Buu arc. So Dende can die. They will just have to wait for a few months to summon Porunga unless Esca can reactivate the balls earlier like Kami did after he rebuilt Shenron.

Vegeta won’t be able to do shit if Dende dies. Not even at full power. Sure he will be mad but he won’t close the gap with Moro.

[Dbzfan94]

The Namekian DBs got upgraded on New Namek. They already used those to resurrect all the Earthlings back in the Buu arc. So Dende can die. They will just have to wait for a few months to summon Porunga unless Esca can reactivate the balls earlier like Kami did after he rebuilt Shenron.

Vegeta won’t be able to do shit if Dende dies. Not even at full power. Sure he will be mad but he won’t close the gap with Moro.

Who is Esca? What happened to Moori?

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

The Namekian DBs got upgraded on New Namek. They already used those to resurrect all the Earthlings back in the Buu arc. So Dende can die. They will just have to wait for a few months to summon Porunga unless Esca can reactivate the balls earlier like Kami did after he rebuilt Shenron.

Vegeta won’t be able to do shit if Dende dies. Not even at full power. Sure he will be mad but he won’t close the gap with Moro.

Who is Esca? What happened to Moori?

A namekian child. Moori was killed by Cranberry I think...

[Dbzfan94]

we seen this before, over confidence and arrogance leading to the Z fighters being trounced. It's obvious Gohan needs to train a whole hell of a lot more, the kids are lazy, goku doesn't share his techniques and they have a wish granting dragon that can give them anything and not once would they had said "hmmmm maybe we should ALWAYS have senzu beans"

SSB is already an overused and imo ugly form we dont need Gohan, Goten and Trunks having it too. Gohan is fine with Ultimate. They clearly have no intention of even letting Trunks and Goten even grow up, let alone making them strong again. Plus theres other ways to make them stronger with out giving them SSJ with blue hair dye. Yeah, the others getting some of Gokus moves would be good but everyone getting KK, IT and Spirit Bomb ruins the originality and diversity of their abilities. Even Goku just spams Kamehameha and doent really his own moves. The exception was Dragon Fist in the later movies/GT. A few of them fine, but everyone gets all three? No. And sure they always should have Senzu. but thats not the same thing as what you're saying.

As for everyone wishing for regeneration, infinite energy and whatever else, that's just boring and flat out bad writing. You seem more interested in everyone jst being as OP as possible instead of a coherent story.

[Dbzfan94]

The Namekian DBs got upgraded on New Namek. They already used those to resurrect all the Earthlings back in the Buu arc. So Dende can die. They will just have to wait for a few months to summon Porunga unless Esca can reactivate the balls earlier like Kami did after he rebuilt Shenron.

Vegeta won’t be able to do shit if Dende dies. Not even at full power. Sure he will be mad but he won’t close the gap with Moro.

Who is Esca? What happened to Moori?

A namekian child. Moori was killed by Cranberry I think...

Ah right thanks. I havent really kept up with the arc beyond seeing what the spoilers are.

[Kagari]

the ONLY thing i hope for after this arc is the Z fighters train together and learn eachothers techniques and improve their teamwork.

I would like to see the following in no particular order.

1. Goku teaches EVERYONE Kaioken, Instant Transmission & the spirit bomb

2. Gohan obtains SSJ Blue and mixes it with his mystik state

3. Goten and Trunks obtain SSJ Blue and go into Whiz staff for 8 years and become adults

4. Piccolo reads the namek book of legends and implements more magical powers into his arsenal.

5. Androids 17 and 18 learn fusion for them as well as chaozu + kriian and tien and yamcha

6. They use the dragonballs and wish for unlimited stamina, ability to breathe in space, and instant regeneration.

7.

Coming from someone who already doesnt like the direction dbs has gone, I honestly hope none of these happen, except for the Piccolo one.

we seen this before, over confidence and arrogance leading to the Z fighters being trounced. It's obvious Gohan needs to train a whole hell of a lot more, the kids are lazy, goku doesn't share his techniques and they have a wish granting dragon that can give them anything and not once would they had said "hmmmm maybe we should ALWAYS have senzu beans"

Alternatively, Moro didn't need to be jacked up to levels Goku or anyone couldn't touch. Gohan was already stronger than his ToP self, which was SSB level. It's just inflating the power scale more impossibly than it needed to be.

[emperior]

The dumbest thing is that the kids, who are now much older than they were in Buu arc, are intentionally left out of the fight.

In my opinion this is something Toriyama is stubborn about. It seems like he absolutely wants to keep them out of everything. Besides the Beerus arc, U6 tournament and Future Trunks arc (just in Kid Trunks’ case in the manga) they are completely oblivious of everything which has happened in Super.

Considering Toyotaro is writing this arc I wonder whose decision it was to leave the kids out of the fight. Maybe Toyotaro himself felt it would have been useless to feature the kids and decided to leave them out in favor of 17. But to be honest, I would have preferred it if the oblivious one this arc was 17 instead of Goten and Trunks. He’s been useless, and doesn’t feel like the same man who did so well in the Tournament of Power.

The kids could have been a nice change of pace. We barely even know them, as they for sure must have grown mentally since the Buu arc.

[Koitsukai]

Why didn't Moro kill the androids? He said that he didn't kill the other Z fighters because he wants to steal their energies, but he can't do this with the androids and he knows it, so it makes no sense why he decided to keep them alive.

That's a great question. It makes no sense, he was shown several times to not hesitate even with his own men(Saganbo, Tsumorekka, Cranberry), so what gives? why were the non-food androids spared?
We know nobody is staying dead because of EoZ, we know Dende is most likely not letting anybody die next month, and even though Piccolo and Goku -who got the worst treatment- were the ones that stood out when trying to fight Moro, why not kill the androids instead of Piccolo, who we've seen die in DB, DBZ, DBGT, RoF?
If someone could be killed off and leave the manga ending intact, that would be 17(even though they'd probably revive him).

could he be planning on eating them like 7-3? I don't think so, he only ate 7-3 because he was cornered.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I don't get why Moro wasted so much time with the B tier fighters(Androids,Piccolo,Gohan). Why didn't he just drain them instantly? I mean, he can't drain the androids, but Gohan and Piccolo have no counter. He can just beat the androids to death if he felt like it since they are no use to him unless he eats them(Oh god another cell moment, he'll become Perfect Moro truthfully at that point).

I'm still firmly believing Merus is a distraction, and that Whis allowed him to go in under specific instructions so the cast get healed.