DB is not better than DBZ

[MasenkoHA]

I don't think preferences regarding DB and DBZ isn't about which is better but rather their differences. People that prefer DB tend to like the adventuring aspects of DB more than the emphasis on fighting a villain who goes through multiple forms. Even when there was fighting in DB, I would say it was more tactics-based than Z.

I prefer Z, but I can see why others wouldn't.

It’s weird that Dragon Ball is seen as the adventure series when that was really only 2 arcs (and more so the Shen Long arc than the Red Ribbon arc which was plenty of action oriented) and there were 3 fighting tournament arcs and 1 Z esque apocalyptic villain take over the world arc.


I guess I just feel Dragon Ball had, somewhat, more variety than Z.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I'd say Goku travelling along Snake Way and the early Namek stuff retain that sense of adventure. The stakes were certainly greater than they had been in OG Dragon Ball, but it was still very much the same series it had been since Pilaf, you could argue by this point it had hit it's climax.

Once we get into the Artificial Humans and Cell arcs it felt like Toriyama had settled into a formula and started to go through the motions. By the Buu arc it was like he had become self-conscious of this fact and tried to rectify it by bringing the series back to its gag roots and playing with the audience's expectations again, although in retrospect the results feel more like happy accidents than reasoned directions for the narrative.

Both Cell and Buu are fun arcs to watch for the fights, particularly the endings, although at their core they do feel more shallow than the endings of any arc in OG Dragon Ball, or even the Saiyan and Freeza arcs so I can absolutely see why some would prefer those earlier parts of the story.

[DBPirate]

I don't think preferences regarding DB and DBZ isn't about which is better but rather their differences. People that prefer DB tend to like the adventuring aspects of DB more than the emphasis on fighting a villain who goes through multiple forms. Even when there was fighting in DB, I would say it was more tactics-based than Z.

I prefer Z, but I can see why others wouldn't.

It’s weird that Dragon Ball is seen as the adventure series when that was really only 2 arcs (and more so the Shen Long arc than the Red Ribbon arc which was plenty of action oriented) and there were 3 fighting tournament arcs and 1 Z esque apocalyptic villain take over the world arc.


I guess I just feel Dragon Ball had, somewhat, more variety than Z.

True. I guess a better way to put it would be that Dragon Ball didn't revolve around the antagonists as much as Z. I can definitely see where you're coming from on the variety.

[Aim]

I do not understand why everyone says that DB is better than DBZ.
I grew up with both series, but I have watched DBZ 6 times in my life, DB only once as a kid.
Now I decided to watch DB again, and I have to admit I'm a little disappointed.

I will now address all the things that are always praised about DB:
"Yamcha was strong, Tien was strong, every character felt relevant, etc"
Wtf did we watch the same show? The side characters are much more useless in DB than in DBZ.
Red Ribbon: Goku is the only character who accomplishes anything.
All other characters only appear after he has already defeated the Red Ribbon army.
Yamcha is weak from the beginning, his only strong moment is his fight against Tien.
He couldn't even defeat the mummy!
Tien was strong for a single saga. After that, he couldn't even defeat Drum, who was defeated by Goku with only one kick *sigh*
And after that he just lay there half dead and did nothing to defeat Piccolo.
Oh, and Yamcha only showed up when it was all over, again.
And the 23rd tournament shows just once more that every character except Goku is absolutely weak and useless.
Bulma also doesn't do anything in the whole series (except in the first saga)
And now let's have a look at DBZ: Goku does not manage to defeat Vegeta alone - Gohan, Kuririn and even Yajirobe all contribute to it. The Freeza and especially the Cell Saga also made very good use of the side characters. Almost every character had his good moments, and even Bulma was useful.

"DB had better characters & better story/better written"
The only character that was really better in DB than in DBZ is Master Roshi.
Better story? I find DBZ much better, more exciting and more interesting. The enemies are hyped much more, everything felt more thought out, more dramatic & emotional. For example Saiyan Saga to Freeza Saga, which felt like a good long thought out story.
How can this be compared with these short simple sagas from DB?
The characters in DBZ also behave much more realistic/emotional during sad moments.
Compare how Tien reacts to Chaozu's death in DB, and then in DBZ.
Or how Bulma reacts to Yamcha's death in DBZ.
Better characters? The only thing I have to say: Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks

To be honest, I even find the humor in DBZ better than in DB.
I even like the Z Filler more! Is something wrong with me?
Or maybe it's just the dub. I watch DB/Z in German, and DBZ has a much better Dub than DB. Could that be the reason why I like DBZ so much more? Can a dub make such a huge difference?
I'm just trying to understand why my opinion is so different.

Yes, a dub can make a big difference, watch it in it's original form.

Side characters weren't useless in the first part of DB as a whole, I don't know where you get this from.

The fact that side characters fort hard and died against Piccolo Daimao makes their loses all the more meaningful, it a big impact to see everyone fall, especially when they believe Son Goku was defeated.

Goku defeated Freeza's henchmen with ease, so I don't know why you're trying to compare.

Goku isn't the only character who accomplished something, to me it sounds like you are unable to absorb anything beyond surface level story telling, because most of the points you brought up weren't valid at all.

Sorry if I sound rude, but it seems like you really half assed watching DB to begin with and already had DBZ in favor from the the get go.

[MasenkoHA]

I do not understand why everyone says that DB is better than DBZ.
I grew up with both series, but I have watched DBZ 6 times in my life, DB only once as a kid.
Now I decided to watch DB again, and I have to admit I'm a little disappointed.

I will now address all the things that are always praised about DB:
"Yamcha was strong, Tien was strong, every character felt relevant, etc"
Wtf did we watch the same show? The side characters are much more useless in DB than in DBZ.
Red Ribbon: Goku is the only character who accomplishes anything.
All other characters only appear after he has already defeated the Red Ribbon army.
Yamcha is weak from the beginning, his only strong moment is his fight against Tien.
He couldn't even defeat the mummy!
Tien was strong for a single saga. After that, he couldn't even defeat Drum, who was defeated by Goku with only one kick *sigh*
And after that he just lay there half dead and did nothing to defeat Piccolo.
Oh, and Yamcha only showed up when it was all over, again.
And the 23rd tournament shows just once more that every character except Goku is absolutely weak and useless.
Bulma also doesn't do anything in the whole series (except in the first saga)
And now let's have a look at DBZ: Goku does not manage to defeat Vegeta alone - Gohan, Kuririn and even Yajirobe all contribute to it. The Freeza and especially the Cell Saga also made very good use of the side characters. Almost every character had his good moments, and even Bulma was useful.

"DB had better characters & better story/better written"
The only character that was really better in DB than in DBZ is Master Roshi.
Better story? I find DBZ much better, more exciting and more interesting. The enemies are hyped much more, everything felt more thought out, more dramatic & emotional. For example Saiyan Saga to Freeza Saga, which felt like a good long thought out story.
How can this be compared with these short simple sagas from DB?
The characters in DBZ also behave much more realistic/emotional during sad moments.
Compare how Tien reacts to Chaozu's death in DB, and then in DBZ.
Or how Bulma reacts to Yamcha's death in DBZ.
Better characters? The only thing I have to say: Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks

To be honest, I even find the humor in DBZ better than in DB.
I even like the Z Filler more! Is something wrong with me?
Or maybe it's just the dub. I watch DB/Z in German, and DBZ has a much better Dub than DB. Could that be the reason why I like DBZ so much more? Can a dub make such a huge difference?
I'm just trying to understand why my opinion is so different.

Yes, a dub can make a big difference, watch it in it's original form.

Side characters weren't useless in the first part of DB as a whole, I don't know where you get this from.

The fact that side characters fort hard and died against Piccolo Daimao makes their loses all the more meaningful, it a big impact to see everyone fall, especially when they believe Son Goku was defeated.

Goku defeated Freeza's henchmen with ease, so I don't know why you're trying to compare.

Goku isn't the only character who accomplished something, to me it sounds like you are unable to absorb anything beyond surface level story telling, because most of the points you brought up weren't valid at all.

Sorry if I sound rude, but it seems like you really half assed watching DB to begin with and already had DBZ in favor from the the get go.

I’d say character prominence for the non-Goku characters tended to go up and down but by Z the focus was really on Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan and too a much lesser extent Piccolo and Krillin.

Bulma went from the second most important character (the series ED theme is even essentially her image song) to a minor character by the next arc who occasionally rose from the background at times but never quite the same way as the first story arc.

Tenshinhan was very prominent in the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao arcs and still kind of sort of in the 23rd Budokai and Saiyan arc but a bit player by the Namek and Cyborg arc and essentially a cameo in the Boo arc

[Banduck]

The fact that side characters fort hard and died against Piccolo Daimao makes their loses all the more meaningful, it a big impact to see everyone fall, especially when they believe Son Goku was defeated.

Goku defeated Freeza's henchmen with ease, so I don't know why you're trying to compare..

Yes, but there is a difference. In DBZ the side characters lost too, but at least they had a good fight. Tien vs Drum was anything but a good fight, and he didn't fight Piccolo at all.
Muten Roshi vs Piccolo was good though, probably the best moment from DB.

Sorry if I sound rude, but it seems like you really half assed watching DB to begin with and already had DBZ in favor from the the get go.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I probably just had too high expectations. The first half was about as expected, and I liked it (except muscle tower), but from the Piccolo arc on I couldn't really enjoy it anymore because I kept expecting "Okay, when will it get better than DBZ?" and I expected the side characters to be (almost) as strong as Goku.
I had the same problem with Inception and its huge hype.

Someday I'll definitely watch it again with my gf, I think I'll enjoy it more then.

I’d say character prominence for the non-Goku characters tended to go up and down but by Z the focus was really on Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan and too a much lesser extent Piccolo and Krillin.

I think DBZ had more focus on the side characters than DB, because Goku was always absent for various reasons.

[Matches Malone]

The first half was about as expected, and I liked it (except muscle tower.

From the Piccolo arc on I couldn't really enjoy it anymore because I kept expecting "Okay, when will it get better than DBZ?"

The RRA arc is a lot better if you just skip the first half and start with Korin's tower.

That's an unfair expectation as Z didn't exist when Toriyama was writing the Piccolo arc. A lot of what Z does better is the result of Toriyama learning from his previous arcs.

[MechaTrunks]

DB isn't better than DBZ, and DBZ isn't better than DB, they're both one story. The split was arbitrary for marketing reasons.

Even if the split was a decision on Toei, it's true that Toriyama changed his narrative style a lot starting with the Saiyans saga.
The fights became the DB fights we all love (deep -something 1st part DB lacked-, coherent -much more than the fights in the 1st part- and still much more spectacular) and the plot also went much deeper thanks to it chaning it's tone towards a more serious one (Cell saga timeline puzzle is still much better than what most other shounens have ever produced, Vegeta or Trunks are excellently written characters for a shounen -and even Goku even if he didn't develop as much-).

The only aspect I can think was better in 1st part DB was the comedic one (which was toned down at the Piccolo saga already), but in terms of overall quality Saiyan saga onwards >>>>>>> pre-saiyan saga chapters.

Regards!

[LoganForkHands73]

Someday I'll definitely watch it again with my gf, I think I'll enjoy it more then.

Everyone always says they watch old school DB with their gfs and like it more. Never thought Dragon Ball would be a prime Netflix-and-possibly-chill type show, might have to try it sometime. I'm sure mine would enjoy Dragon Ball's lighter tone more since she's not a fan of violence, which DBZ has plenty of.

Anyway, I find Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z likeable in their own ways. However, I will say Dragon Ball is much slower to get going. I only really started to love it when it started getting into tournament arcs, which are all superb. However, by and large, I usually hanker for DBZ a bit more.

There's the argument in this very thread that they're all the same story anyway so drawing distinctions between the two is somehow splitting hairs and heresy, but it's fine to prefer one over the other, in the same way it's okay to prefer a later season of a show over an earlier one. The anime didn't just distinguish them from an arbitrary story perspective -- there was also a huge turnover in creative staff in between the gaps. You can draw whichever line you want though. You could say that everything after the Baba arc was good, or it all went downhill after the Namek arc, whatever.

[Matches Malone]

The anime didn't just distinguish them from an arbitrary story perspective -- there was also a huge turnover in creative staff in between the gaps.

The change in staff took place at the start of the 23rd Tenkaichi, not the Saiyan arc. Torishima who played a major role in how the anime turned out said himself that it was done purely for marketing reasons, not story ones.

Even if the split was a decision on Toei, it's true that Toriyama changed his narrative style a lot starting with the Saiyans saga. The fights became the DB fights we all love (deep -something 1st part DB lacked-, coherent -much more than the fights in the 1st part- and still much more spectacular) and the plot also went much deeper thanks to it chaning it's tone towards a more serious one (Cell saga timeline puzzle is still much better than what most other shounens have ever produced, Vegeta or Trunks are excellently written characters for a shounen -and even Goku even if he didn't develop as much-).

If I had to draw a line on where DB became the DB we're familiar with today, it'd be with the 22nd Tenkaichi. Everything mentioned here started with that arc, and just improved as time went on.

[Banduck]

Even if the split was a decision on Toei, it's true that Toriyama changed his narrative style a lot starting with the Saiyans saga.
The fights became the DB fights we all love (deep -something 1st part DB lacked-, coherent -much more than the fights in the 1st part- and still much more spectacular) and the plot also went much deeper thanks to it chaning it's tone towards a more serious one (Cell saga timeline puzzle is still much better than what most other shounens have ever produced, Vegeta or Trunks are excellently written characters for a shounen -and even Goku even if he didn't develop as much-).

Yeah, that's exactly how I see it too. DBZ feels VERY different to me.
In my case it could also be because in germany all voice actors have been replaced with much better ones for dbz.
I also think that the plot in DBZ is deeper but somehow most people don't seem to agree. Well, everyone can have their own opinion.

Someday I'll definitely watch it again with my gf, I think I'll enjoy it more then.

Everyone always says they watch old school DB with their gfs and like it more. Never thought Dragon Ball would be a prime Netflix-and-possibly-chill type show, might have to try it sometime. I'm sure mine would enjoy Dragon Ball's lighter tone more since she's not a fan of violence, which DBZ has plenty of.

I find it is always more fun to watch a show together Especially with DB/Z it's exciting to see the reactions of a person who has never seen it before.

[MechaTrunks]

If I had to draw a line on where DB became the DB we're familiar with today, it'd be with the 22nd Tenkaichi. Everything mentioned here started with that arc, and just improved as time went on.

I wouldn't say you're wrong, but 22nd tenckaichi budokay fights are still clearly written with the same style of the 1st part fights, that's why I draw the line on Raditz because there it's the first saga you can say the full "Z" style is consolidated: deeper fights (thanks to the power levels being quntified), deeper plot (22nd Tenakichi's plot was weak), a more grounded setting (I think that animal-people were still there in the 22nd Tenkaichi arc), etc.

It's a matter of what you think it's more important. For me in a shounen it's the fights, and that's why for me "Z" starts where the anime decided it would start (this may be the first time I agree with the anime XD).

Yeah, that's exactly how I see it too. DBZ feels VERY different to me.
In my case it could also be because in germany all voice actors have been replaced with much better ones for dbz.
I also think that the plot in DBZ is deeper but somehow most people don't seem to agree. Well, everyone can have their own opinion.

Well, a better dub can certainly change the feel of the series (myself for example, being catalan I saw both the catalan and european spanish dubs of the series -being the catalan dub of much, much higher quality-), but when I was comparing Z to normal DB I did it only with the manga on mind.

Those differences (more complex plots, more complex characters and much deeper and coherent fights) which are what in my opinion make DB one of the best shounens ever, were introduced in the Z part of the manga.


Regards!

[MasenkoHA]

I wouldn't say you're wrong, but 22nd tenckaichi budokay fights are still clearly written with the same style of the 1st part fights, that's why I draw the line on Raditz because there it's the first saga you can say the full "Z" style is consolidated:

Not really. The fight between Goku and Piccolo Jr wouldn’t look out of place in Z at all.

The 22nd Budokai is where most emphasis on ki blast and less gag moves was cemented. Really the only distinction between Z and the 22nd Budokai and Daimao arcs is Goku being a child.

The only REAL change between the 23rd Budokai and the start of Z is the revelation that Goku is an alien and Goku now being a parent.

deeper fights (thanks to the power levels being quntified),

The sudden existence of numbers being associated with strength (which was treated as unreliable in the narrative) does not make the fights deeper. Not sure how you made that connection? Power levels also stopped being a thing more or less after the Captain Ginyu portion of Z. Far more of Z doesn’t even bother with power levels. Like out of 291 episodes it’s really only of any real prominence for the first 74 episodes . It’s never even mentioned again in Z after a Freeza henchman gets a misleading reading off Trunks.

deeper plot (22nd Tenakichi's plot was weak),

What precisely about the plot of the 22nd Budokai was weak ?

a more grounded setting (I think that animal-people were still there in the 22nd Tenkaichi arc), etc.

They were still there in Z...

[MechaTrunks]

Not really. The fight between Goku and Piccolo Jr wouldn’t look out of place in Z at all.

The 22nd Budokai is where most emphasis on ki blast and less gag moves was cemented. Really the only distinction between Z and the 22nd Budokai and Daimao arcs is Goku being a child.

The only REAL change between the 23rd Budokai and the start of Z is the revelation that Goku is an alien and Goku now being a parent.

I disagree.
The fight between Goku and Piccolo is not only full of Gimmicks (food kamehame ha, giant Piccolo, "special" kamehame ha that was never used again -and for a good reason-), but it's also very difficult to pinpoint the power each fighter has at a given moment due to it still not being as well written as the Z fights.
There's that point where both Goku and Piccolo are exhausted, but Piccolo still has strength enough to contain Kami Sama but then is Koed by Goku simply falling from the sky flying towards him.

With Raditz the basic rules that the manga will always respect from then onwards are introduced: Power is lost after each injury and not only that, but TONS of power could be lost after a strong blow -injured Goku managing to immobilize Raditz after Gohan's headbutt is the first prime example of the logic behind the fights chaning compared to preZ-), 10-15% differences in strength are enough to beat your opponent to a pulp if serious, etc. etc.

The fight itself was quite simple (nothing compared to Goku vs Nappa, Goku vs Vegeta, Goku vs Freeza, Vegeta vs A18 or Piccolo vs A17 to name a few that are absolute masterpieces), but the basic rules were introduced there.
It's no coincidence that the power levels were introduced there and not in the 22nd Budokai.

The sudden existence of numbers being associated with strength (which was treated as unreliable in the narrative) does not make the fights deeper. Not sure how you made that connection? Power levels also stopped being a thing more or less after the Captain Ginyu portion of Z. Far more of Z doesn’t even bother with power levels. Like out of 291 episodes it’s really only of any real prominence for the first 74 episodes . It’s never even mentioned again in Z after a Freeza henchman gets a misleading reading off Trunks.

The existence of numbers is not what makes the DBZ fights much deeper (as I said before, some examples of deep fights are from the Cell saga), it's just that numbers where introduced when Toriyama decided to focus the writting of his fights (or maybe he focused the writting of his fights as a result of inventing the battle power system, one never knows with him) and that from then onwards the fights are simply much, much better written.

Goku vs Vegeta for example, of course the numbers help to understand what Toriyama had on mind but you don't have numbers for most of the fight and what makes it so deep is how it develops.

No fight from pre-Z can be compared to even the dumbest fight of Z.

What precisely about the plot of the 22nd Budokai was weak ?

Absolutely everything.
Besides it being a tournament saga that didn't had much time to show us how the characters had really changed (yeah, you saw a somehow more mature Goku but just because he wasn't as silly and he grew tall), and what was it's plot? Piccolo's reincarnation goes to a tournament? LoL
Compare this to Goku being an alien, Piccolo being also an alien with his own backstory (his backstory is better in the Namek saga than in all his DB sagas, even the one when he was introduced) and the relationship of the saiyans with the Freeza empire.
Or the Cell saga, whose timeline-paradox was so complex that even the Daizenshuu guides failed miserably when it came to explain how they worked (despite it being flawlessly written on Toriyama's part, by the way).
The only Z-saga that has a simple enough plot (and it's still more complex) is the Buu saga and it still had much more depth in it's overall plot than any pre-Z saga just because of it's characters (Kid Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan and Goku are excellently written).

They were still there in Z...

I don't think they're there after the Freezer saga. I should re-check, but they surely didn't have as much presence. That's the less important aspect though, what matured in "Z" was the writting.

Regards!

[Melee_Sovereign]

Is something wrong with me?

No. Its your opinion, and probably one a lot of people share with you.

[Scientist Fu]

DBZ is far more interesting because the villains become much more threatening and the intrigue gets deeper and deeper and we also have more backstory.

The lack of interesting and appealing characters in Dragon Ball is the reason why I prefer DBZ + the lack of background is also a problem for me, everything comes later on in the story line. Things only start to get serious with Red Ribbon and the story gets more interesting with the arrival of Raditz.

[Matches Malone]

The lack of interesting and appealing characters in Dragon Ball is the reason why I prefer DBZ.

Goku, Tien, Krillin, & Roshi weren't interesting ? They didn't have appealing character arcs ?

[Scientist Fu]

The lack of interesting and appealing characters in Dragon Ball is the reason why I prefer DBZ.

Goku, Tien, Krillin, & Roshi weren't interesting ? They didn't have appealing character arcs ?

Aside from Goku, they weren't interesting enough to keep my attention. The design is also a very important part for me and design wise Tien, Krillin and Roshi are all basic looking characters.

[ABED]

I don't agree at all that the fights were better in DBZ with the exception of the first fight against Vegeta.

No fight from pre-Z can be compared to even the dumbest fight of Z.

Goku vs. Piccolo at the 23rd TB says otherwise.

And as a storytelling device, backstory is only so interesting. It's not that necessary to make things interesting.

Things only start to get serious with Red Ribbon and the story gets more interesting with the arrival of Raditz.

Is serious more interesting to you?

[ArmenianPepsi]

Not really. The fight between Goku and Piccolo Jr wouldn’t look out of place in Z at all.

The 22nd Budokai is where most emphasis on ki blast and less gag moves was cemented. Really the only distinction between Z and the 22nd Budokai and Daimao arcs is Goku being a child.

The only REAL change between the 23rd Budokai and the start of Z is the revelation that Goku is an alien and Goku now being a parent.

I disagree.
The fight between Goku and Piccolo is not only full of Gimmicks (food kamehame ha, giant Piccolo, "special" kamehame ha that was never used again -and for a good reason-), but it's also very difficult to pinpoint the power each fighter has at a given moment due to it still not being as well written as the Z fights.
There's that point where both Goku and Piccolo are exhausted, but Piccolo still has strength enough to contain Kami Sama but then is Koed by Goku simply falling from the sky flying towards him.

With Raditz the basic rules that the manga will always respect from then onwards are introduced: Power is lost after each injury and not only that, but TONS of power could be lost after a strong blow -injured Goku managing to immobilize Raditz after Gohan's headbutt is the first prime example of the logic behind the fights chaning compared to preZ-), 10-15% differences in strength are enough to beat your opponent to a pulp if serious, etc. etc.

I can respect your view, but I myself do not agree with this take.

The fight between Goku and Piccolo was great without having power levels bearing over it. Without any sort of rigid, near-mathematical way to tell who would win a fight before it even started, it made it fun to watch.

There was real tension. The outcome of the fight was determined by not only who could hit the hardest, but by cunning, technique, and sheer willpower to keep getting up after being beat down. Not by an arbitrary number.

Both characters are dead set on standing their ground no matter what, and are shown to be fairly matched. As the fight went on and both got more worn out, it was still up in the air who would win. Who would have the final blow? Who would finally give in? How far can they really go? Those are the kind of questions I can imagine a 1st time viewer having when watching. Genuinely suspenseful.

To me it's more fun to watch Goku have real tough battle, winning by the slimmest of margins, than it was to say, watch one sided beatdowns like Buu pummeling Dabura, Gohan and Supreme Kai into the dirt.