What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of queer representation, I’ve been starting to think more about this topic, and I’m kind of just wondering if Dragon Ball is even the kind of franchise that would bother with that in any real capacity, at least when it comes to Toriyama’s Dragon Ball.

Akira Toriyama has of course made it very clear that romance is not one of his strong suits. In the course of the entire manga, the only romance that could maybe be considered to be somewhat fleshed out is Gohan and Videl, with Kuririn and #18 being a distant second. In the case of Goku x Chi-Chi and Vegeta x Bulma, however, those couples pretty much only exist so that characters like Gohan and Trunks could exist.

Still, some people have clearly been desiring the depiction of same sex romance in the series, which isn’t surprising, since same sex couples have become increasingly common in entertainment in the past decade. But is there reason to believe they’ll do it?

So far, the closest Dragon Ball has come to doing so is with the anime versions of Caulifla and Kale. Based on my limited knowledge of anime and manga, the anime seems to play into somewhat common trope in the medium of the schoolgirl lesbian/“yandere” (is that the right word for it?) trope, but it hasn’t explicitly said so. It should also be noted that the manga doesn’t have any of this subtext whatsoever. In the manga, it’s clear that Kale views Caulifla specifically as an older sister who she respects. By all accounts, their closeness in the anime is Toei’s doing, not Toriyama’s.

Anyway, what I’m getting is something I’ve said before, which is that Toriyama is not a sentimental writer. He generally doesn’t write stories about the bonds between people, and the power of friendship, or anything like that, which is why Minus is so jarring. That’s why people have a tendency to view Goku as an aloof and generally apathetic individual. With that in mind, it’s not surprising that he doesn’t do well writing romance. That brings me back to my earlier point, would the franchise even bother with depicting an actual same sex romance that isn’t just subtext that Toei chose to throw in for one reason or another? And no, Tenshinhan and Chaotzu are definitely not intended to be seen as a couple.

[JulieYBM]

Hopefully I don't come across as being pissy and bitchy in this post, considering I feel like I actually managed to write half-way clearly.

On the subject of queer representation, I’ve been starting to think more about this topic, and I’m kind of just wondering if Dragon Ball is even the kind of franchise that would bother with that in any real capacity, at least when it comes to Toriyama’s Dragon Ball.

You're asking the wrong question. You need to ask "how do we push Dragon Ball to be better?" not whether it's the 'type' of franchise to 'bother'¹ with queer representation. Besides, the franchise very much does have queer representation already, it just needs to be better.

¹'Bother' is more than a little dismissive, considering how we're talking about real human lives here and the media that influences our children to better people than the previous generation.

Akira Toriyama has of course made it very clear that romance is not one of his strong suits. In the course of the entire manga, the only romance that could maybe be considered to be somewhat fleshed out is Gohan and Videl, with Kuririn and #18 being a distant second. In the case of Goku x Chi-Chi and Vegeta x Bulma, however, those couples pretty much only exist so that characters like Gohan and Trunks could exist.

Toriyama Akira isn't the only creator involved with the franchise. Allowing a strong vision to guide the franchise--and not just the comparatively yesman-esque Toyo-tarou--would facilitate this.

Still, some people have clearly been desiring the depiction of same sex romance in the series, which isn’t surprising, since same sex couples have become increasingly common in entertainment in the past decade. But is there reason to believe they’ll do it?

We don't desire same-gender couples because others are doing it--it's not a fad--we desire same-gender couples because same-gender couples are just as 'normal' as differing-gender couples and positive depiction of queer characters educates people on us and let's us get seen for being more than their pre-conceived notions.

So far, the closest Dragon Ball has come to doing so is with the anime versions of Caulifla and Kale. Based on my limited knowledge of anime and manga, the anime seems to play into somewhat common trope in the medium of the schoolgirl lesbian/“yandere” (is that the right word for it?) trope, but it hasn’t explicitly said so. It should also be noted that the manga doesn’t have any of this subtext whatsoever. In the manga, it’s clear that Kale views Caulifla specifically as an older sister who she respects. By all accounts, their closeness in the anime is Toei’s doing, not Toriyama’s.

Anyway, what I’m getting is something I’ve said before, which is that Toriyama is not a sentimental writer. He generally doesn’t write stories about the bonds between people, and the power of friendship, or anything like that, which is why Minus is so jarring. That’s why people have a tendency to view Goku as an aloof and generally apathetic individual. With that in mind, it’s not surprising that he doesn’t do well writing romance. That brings me back to my earlier point, would the franchise even bother with depicting an actual same sex romance that isn’t just subtext that Toei chose to throw in for one reason or another? And no, Tenshinhan and Chaotzu are definitely not intended to be seen as a couple.

Kale is played loosely as 'yandere'--the 'creepy' aspects are comparatively toned down in comparison to how we see the archetype in other franchises but Dragon Ball Super as a whole is very bland so I wouldn't read into that. Kale evolves throughout the Tournament of Power, gains self-esteem and then learns to stand beside Caulifla not as a subordinate but more of an equal. It's a relationship that evolves from an unbalanced form to a more balanced form. The subtext of them being a couple is right there, too.

And, again, who cares about Toriyama? He's not out there personally writing every script and drawing every storyboard of every Dragon Ball story, he's a glorified casual observe whose comments are more likely to be paid heed to simply because that's the ingrained practice.

Also, Tenshinhan and Chaozu are super duper man-loving-men.

[ZodiacBeast]

Yeah, even as a kid who knew nothing about homosexuality, I knew Tien and Chiaotzu probably had a "special relationship". I didn't care if they did or not, it just was a thought that always crossed my mind.

I didn't care if Frieza was effeminate then and I still don't care.

Otokosuki made me very uncomfortable, not because he's gay, but because he's attracted to Kid Trunks and Goten. Pedophilia is what's wrong, not homosexuality.

Roshi was also super creepy and annoying. It doesn't matter what sex or gender a person is, trying to grope and spy on them is disgusting.

I also hated the "big lips" style that appears so often in Japanese works. It just looks so damn stupid. I had no idea that it was tied to a racist stereotype until I got older. I always wondered why Popo was so damn dark.

Anyways, if I were to remake Dragon Ball (for whatever god-forsaken reason), these would be what I would change. Take Otokosuki for example - why was it "necessary" for him to be a pedo? He could just be a fighter who happens to be gay. Make Popo lighter and not have big lips. Tone down Roshi a lot - maybe after getting smacked a few times he sticks to his magazines and aerobics on TV or something.

On a side note, I feel like some people get caught up on there being a necessity for a certain number of a type of person being in a work. Diversity is cool, but forcing it into a work is just as bad as excluding it. If you had a choice between an inexperienced group of diverse people and a group of people trained for the task at hand, no matter who they are, which would you pick? Maybe not the best example for "character design", but I believe my point still comes across. Toriyama designed (mostly) white male characters because Japan is like 99% white and many Shounen characters, especially the main ones, are male.

[MasenkoHA]

Otokosuki made me very uncomfortable, not because he's gay, but because he's attracted to Kid Trunks and Goten. Pedophilia is what's wrong, not homosexuality.

Trunks would have been at least 18 at that point and I haven’t watched past Namek in forever but I don’t recall him hitting on Goten?

The problem was the depiction of predatory homosexual stereotype than anything.

[Locust]

Toriyama designed (mostly) white male characters because Japan is like 99% white and many Shounen characters, especially the main ones, are male.

Asian people aren't white

[ZodiacBeast]

Otokosuki made me very uncomfortable, not because he's gay, but because he's attracted to Kid Trunks and Goten. Pedophilia is what's wrong, not homosexuality.

Trunks would have been at least 18 at that point and I haven’t watched past Namek in forever but I don’t recall him hitting on Goten?

The problem was the depiction of predatory homosexual stereotype than anything.

Oops, forgot what tournament he was in. My mind put him at the tournament before Buu appears. Been forever since I've seen Buu/EoZ.

And yeah, the predatory homosexual stereotype is disgusting.

[WittyUsername]

The idea that Tenshinhan and Chaozu were ever written as a couple is definitely reading too far into it. Those characters appeared in an 80s manga series. I know Japan has traditionally been more lenient about depicting gay characters in children’s media than America, but this was before stuff like Sailor Moon. Somehow, I don’t think Toriyama was ever the kind of progressive writer who would just casually have a gay couple as part of the cast, without even making any jokes about it, or giving them any stereotypical traits. Besides, Chaozu looks and behaves just a tad bit too much like a child for something like that to not be awkward.

Hell, even TeamFourStar didn’t depict them as a couple, and they went all in with Yaijrobe x Karin/Korin.

[KBABZ]

Hell, even TeamFourStar didn’t depict them as a couple, and they went all in with Yaijrobe x Karin/Korin.

Not that I disagree on Tien/Chaiotzu (which I always read as a big brother/little brother relationship), but I think TFS went with Yajirobe/Korin because they are literally associated with each other when before they weren't. It's weird specifically for Yajirobe considering he was previously a drifter samurai before he met Goku so the lifestyle change makes NO SENSE! And it makes one wonder why he would stick around with Korin for so long? And I'd imagine TFS riffed off of that line of thinking.

[WittyUsername]

Hell, even TeamFourStar didn’t depict them as a couple, and they went all in with Yaijrobe x Karin/Korin.

Not that I disagree on Tien/Chaiotzu (which I always read as a big brother/little brother relationship), but I think TFS went with Yajirobe/Korin because they are literally associated with each other when before they weren't. It's weird specifically for Yajirobe considering he was previously a drifter samurai before he met Goku so the lifestyle change makes NO SENSE! And it makes one wonder why he would stick around with Korin for so long? And I'd imagine TFS riffed off of that line of thinking.

I don’t disagree with you. I’m simply saying that the fact that they never went in that direction with Ten and Chaozu seems like a pretty good indication that they are among the people who don’t agree with that particular pairing.

[JulieYBM]

The idea that Tenshinhan and Chaozu were ever written as a couple is definitely reading too far into it. Those characters appeared in an 80s manga series. I know Japan has traditionally been more lenient about depicting gay characters in children’s media than America, but this was before stuff like Sailor Moon. Somehow, I don’t think Toriyama was ever the kind of progressive writer who would just casually have a gay couple as part of the cast, without even making any jokes about it, or giving them any stereotypical traits. Besides, Chaozu looks and behaves just a tad bit too much like a child for something like that to not be awkward.

Hell, even TeamFourStar didn’t depict them as a couple, and they went all in with Yaijrobe x Karin/Korin.

Tenshinhan thinking about his memories with Chaozu, hallucinating the dead Chaozu and using the last of his life force to try and kill the man that killed Chaozu ALL WHILE CHAOZU'S THEME PLAYS IN THE BACKGROUND is very queer.

[jjgp1112]

The notion that a close friendship between male friends is driven by homosexuality arguably further contributes to toxic masculinity.

[KBABZ]

The notion that a close friendship between male friends is driven by homosexuality arguably further contributes to toxic masculinity.

Agreed, it's basically Goku and Krillin if they hung out together all the time.

[LoganForkHands73]

I always interpreted Tenshinhan and Chaozu's relationship as "special" but mainly in the sense that they have an incredibly intense, platonic life-bond, more like brothers. I interpret it that way since Chaozu seems to be permanently stuck with the mind, body and voice of a small child.

[JulieYBM]

The notion that a close friendship between male friends is driven by homosexuality arguably further contributes to toxic masculinity.

I'm not saying that? I'm saying these characters bare heavy coding that implies the bond between these two characters is romantic. I certainly am actively defending that idea that that coding is there and should not be dismissed, however. I've kind of said everything I have to say on the subject at this point, though, and if I didn't think I didn't have to do a little clearing up of details at this point I wouldn't.

Like...I know when two people of the same gender are Actually Just Friends. I'm a WLW (yes, this sounds defensive), there are plenty of women out there I am only close-friends with and don't see them as potential romantic partners. I know men personally, I know when they're Actually Just Friends, too.

[ABED]

But given Toriyama is hardly the most progressive person, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they aren't gay.

[JulieYBM]

But given Toriyama is hardly the most progressive person, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they aren't gay.

Cool? He also isn't the only person making Dragon Ball stuff. Arguing that Toriyama is the only authority on Dragon Ball when he clearly is not the person personally making all of Dragon Ball is...silly?

[ABED]

But given Toriyama is hardly the most progressive person, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they aren't gay.

Cool? He also isn't the only person making Dragon Ball stuff. Arguing that Toriyama is the only authority on Dragon Ball when he clearly is not the person personally making all of Dragon Ball is...silly?

I'm going by Toriyama's manga and since he's the author, I'm going by that.

[WittyUsername]

It’s not like Toei was ever really a progressive company either. We all remember what they did with General Blue. I seriously doubt they ever intended to portray Tenshinhan grieving over Chaozu’s death as romantic. I also certainly haven’t seen modern Dragon Ball going with that interpretation of their relationship either. By all accounts, Tenshinhan is supposed to be a big brother/father figure to Chaozu.

[JulieYBM]

It’s not like Toei was ever really a progressive company either. We all remember what they did with General Blue. I seriously doubt they ever intended to portray Tenshinhan grieving over Chaozu’s death as romantic. I also certainly haven’t seen modern Dragon Ball going with that interpretation of their relationship either. By all accounts, Tenshinhan is supposed to be a big brother/father figure to Chaozu.

"Homophobic until proven otherwise" is a heck of a hill to die on.

I'm definitely willing to call Okazaki, Nishio, Ebisawa, Takenouchi and Inoue homophobic for what they did to Blue in 1987' Episode #56, though. Whether that remained true two years later in Episode #25 I cannot say, thus the interpreting that's going on.

[KBABZ]

It’s not like Toei was ever really a progressive company either. We all remember what they did with General Blue. I seriously doubt they ever intended to portray Tenshinhan grieving over Chaozu’s death as romantic. I also certainly haven’t seen modern Dragon Ball going with that interpretation of their relationship either. By all accounts, Tenshinhan is supposed to be a big brother/father figure to Chaozu.

"Homophobic until proven otherwise" is a heck of a hill to die on.

I'm definitely willing to call Okazaki, Nishio, Ebisawa, Takenouchi and Inoue homophobic for what they did to Blue in 1987' Episode #56, though. Whether that remained true two years later in Episode #25 I cannot say, thus the interpreting that's going on.

Not only that but if you compare the anime to the manga, Toei added WAY more scenes of Roshi being a pervert than Toriyama did in his own!