What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[JulieYBM]

You were literally being dismissive of queer people in your last post. Now you want to placate by saying we're 'okay' while simultaneously dismissing the veracity of our criticism? You're equating queer people to entitled brats simply for being critical of media representation, something that leads to further discrimination?

I simply stated why I watch anime, which may or may not line up with why you and others watch it. What I meant by entitled is that fans in general aren't owned anything by the creators. For example, you've got Vegeta fans crying a river for the past month over how he was written in last month's chapter, and I told them the same thing, Toyotaro doesn't owe you anything. When it comes to discrimination, I fail to see how not being represented in a story leads to that. Discrimination in general will take a lot more than representation in DB to fix, unfortunately.

You didn't just make an innocent comment, you pointedly commented that Japan was free of queer people, which is untrue. Now you're comparing queer fans wanting better representation to something as insignificant as how a character's fucking fight scenes are written?

How a group of people are represented in media matters. It influences how we [as a society] perceive an entire group of people, which may or may not include ourselves. I was lucky that Blue wasn't my first exposure to a gay person but even then, all my first exposures to trans people were negative (Friends, Yuu Yuu Hakusho, The Silence of the Lambs, One Piece, other shit I'm blocking out). How many gay kids watching Dragon Ball saw the only queer characters being evil, jokes or predators? Now, turn around and ask this: how many cishet people see how a queer person is represented in media and see that they're the butt of jokes, bad guys or predators? Go watch Dressed to Kill or Psycho or some other dumbfuck film where a cis man plays a "man in a dress" to represent trans women.

This is a big part of the reason why I argue that the subtext of characters like Kale and Caulifla needs to be brought fully to the surface and addressed directly. You're going to help give a queer kid positive experience or help change the minds of even just one adult on queer folks--rather than just negatively re-enforce shit. Go watch Disclosure on Netflix, it's a great documentary with more examples.

Cishet people have their sexuality and gender re-enforced through media and queer people put up with it because we have a principled belief in not dictating peoples' gender and sexuality. Christ forbid the cishets examine their own principles on the subject and Just Not Say Dumb Shit.

[Matches Malone]

Now you're comparing queer fans wanting better representation to something as insignificant as how a character's fucking fight scenes are written?

It is the same thing, acting as if the creator of a work owes you, when in fact they don't. Based on how a lot of fans act when it comes to their demands, I honestly can't blame creators for completely ignoring them.

[Locust]

I apologize if i have offended you in anyway

I think you've offended a lot of people with that comment. With that said, I completely agree with you, I watch DB and other anime for the story and characters, not the American politics that no one should expect to see in JAPANESE shows.

Queer people aren't politics, we're people, not political talking points. Queer people exist in Japan. This is a strange comment

I keep seeing this on this board, people talking about Japan as if it's some kind of alien planet - that's weird, it's not exactly like America, obviously there is cultural differences, but I do wonder what some people on here think Japanese people are like....

[Cure Dragon 255]

Japan:THE UTOPIA for Racist Assholes.



...It aint that BTW.

[JulieYBM]

Now you're comparing queer fans wanting better representation to something as insignificant as how a character's fucking fight scenes are written?

It is the same thing, acting as if the creator of a work owes you, when in fact they don't. Based on how a lot of fans act when it comes to their demands, I honestly can't blame creators for completely ignoring them.

"Hi, provide positive representation so I don't get murdered or commit suicide because I'm only ever told that how I feel is wrong, thanks!" is not the same as "VEGETA SHOULDN'T LOSE NOOOOOOOOOOO GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING TOYOTAROU!!!"

[Matches Malone]

"Hi, provide positive representation so I don't get murdered or commit suicide because I'm only ever told that how I feel is wrong, thanks!"

If your life is ever threatened, that's terrible, I doubt anyone will argue with that, but being represented isn't going to change that. The issue is far deeper than something as simple as being in a specific show or movie. The same thing applies with suicide, it's a deep psychological issue that requires far more medical treatment than any entertainment media can provide.

[Locust]

"Hi, provide positive representation so I don't get murdered or commit suicide because I'm only ever told that how I feel is wrong, thanks!"

If your life is ever threatened, that's terrible, I doubt anyone will argue with that, but being represented isn't going to change that. The issue is far deeper than something as simple as being in a specific show or movie. The same thing applies with suicide, it's a deep psychological issue that requires far more medical treatment than any entertainment media can provide.

Representation can absolutely "normalize" (loath to use that term, since LGBT+ person are normal, but for lack of better term) marginalised people
This is of course anecdotal - but I have heard people talk about things like "you know, I grew up not understanding gay people, but seeing [name] in [reality show] kind of opened my eyes a bit."
I would say fictional content can also provide positive impact, because when all you really see is queer coded villains (Disney is pretty bad for this) - it's tiring

It can be affirming to see people like you in media, it feels good
While I would never DEMAND a creator to do anything, I just sincerely do not get why the inclusion of a queer character is, as your previous comment, "political"? The subject of representation can certainly be a political thing, but queer chars (or any other marginalized character) simply being in an anime, isn't always inherently political

[Matches Malone]

I just sincerely do not get why the inclusion of a queer character is, as your previous comment, "political"?

If Toriyama wants to include them, that's fine, I have no issue with that. What I've noticed is some asking for them just to say they're there, rather than them being there for a story reason. This applies to every character for me, if someone's asking for more Gohan for example, I'll say the same thing, is he going to add anything to the story or just be there to tick a box ?

[JulieYBM]

"Hi, provide positive representation so I don't get murdered or commit suicide because I'm only ever told that how I feel is wrong, thanks!"

If your life is ever threatened, that's terrible, I doubt anyone will argue with that, but being represented isn't going to change that. The issue is far deeper than something as simple as being in a specific show or movie. The same thing applies with suicide, it's a deep psychological issue that requires far more medical treatment than any entertainment media can provide.

https://scholars.org/contribution/how-m ... gay-people

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... ling-seen/

https://www.glaad.org/publications/vict ... television

Hey, remember all those old films that portray Black people as sub-human, savage, violent rapists? That's negative media portrayal and it re-enforces how society saw Black people at the time. "Hide the White women so a Black man doesn't rape her!" Same bullshit, infuriating tactics, only now they're using that shit on Black trans women who just want to take a piss in a restroom at the store without a man murdering her. It's propaganda and it works.

I just sincerely do not get why the inclusion of a queer character is, as your previous comment, "political"?

If Toriyama wants to include them, that's fine, I have no issue with that. What I've noticed is some asking for them just to say they're there, rather than them being there for a story reason. This applies to every character for me, if someone's asking for more Gohan for example, I'll say the same thing, is he going to add anything to the story or just be there to tick a box ?

Your examples are in no way equatable and the demeaning manor in which you speak of minorities is really insulting here.

[Locust]

I just sincerely do not get why the inclusion of a queer character is, as your previous comment, "political"?

If Toriyama wants to include them, that's fine, I have no issue with that. What I've noticed is some asking for them just to say they're there, rather than them being there for a story reason. This applies to every character for me, if someone's asking for more Gohan for example, I'll say the same thing, is he going to add anything to the story or just be there to tick a box ?

Thing is - I don't think a queer characters queerness has to be there for a story reason. I don't know if that's what you meant or not, but it is something I see a lot of - "I'm fine with a gay char if there is a reason for him to be gay" EDIT: Ah wait, I think I misunderstood, forgive my poor English skills, sorry about that!

If there are queer chars introduced, their queerness is just a facet of what they are - they should be well written, well rounded characters, with their own motives and goals - as should any character be, really
I don't think anyone wants to be represented by a "box ticking" character

[Matches Malone]

I don't know if that's what you meant or not, but it is something I see a lot of - "I'm fine with a gay char if there is a reason for him to be gay"

I'm fine with any character that brings something to the table. I simply don't think any character should be brought on board if they're not going to be used right. For me, this also applies to straight characters. If Toriyama is someone who doesn't know how to writer a specific character, or isn't interested, then he shouldn't. Look at the current Moro arc, the Z fighters are more or less there to just tick boxes, and you can tell no one's really interested in writing them.

[ABED]

I can definitely see how art has a positive effect on people and our perceptions but artists have no obligation to write stories for any other reason than what they deem interesting. Art has power but that's why I think there needs to be a push for more diverse creators and less trying to make stories all things to all people.

[Matches Malone]

I think there needs to be a push for more diverse creators and less trying to make stories all things to all people.

I think this is a very good point. Not only will this give us completely new content, it'll also get more people working in the industry.

[Jord]

Now you're comparing queer fans wanting better representation to something as insignificant as how a character's fucking fight scenes are written?

It is the same thing, acting as if the creator of a work owes you, when in fact they don't. Based on how a lot of fans act when it comes to their demands, I honestly can't blame creators for completely ignoring them.

"Hi, provide positive representation so I don't get murdered or commit suicide because I'm only ever told that how I feel is wrong, thanks!" is not the same as "VEGETA SHOULDN'T LOSE NOOOOOOOOOOO GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING TOYOTAROU!!!"

Yeah....if committing suicide depends on representation in a cartoon show you have deeper problems which you should get examined.

[Jiren The Alpha]

I think you've offended a lot of people with that comment.

I don't know how .

I am the only atheist in my muslim familiy, we are berber from morocco(a mostly arab country) and we now live in denmark.

I don't care about being represented in moroccan(which is mostly arab) or danish medie, why? because we all live on this planet as a HUMAN RACE, everyone is human, the lgbt+, the blacks,the whites and the asians, everyone should be treated with respect, that's what i was trying to say but english is my third language .

You know, people should be mad at Dragon ball for not representing the human race right .

[jjgp1112]

It is the same thing, acting as if the creator of a work owes you, when in fact they don't. Based on how a lot of fans act when it comes to their demands, I honestly can't blame creators for completely ignoring them.

"Hi, provide positive representation so I don't get murdered or commit suicide because I'm only ever told that how I feel is wrong, thanks!" is not the same as "VEGETA SHOULDN'T LOSE NOOOOOOOOOOO GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING TOYOTAROU!!!"

Yeah....if committing suicide depends on representation in a cartoon show you have deeper problems which you should get examined.

At some point you're no longer gonna get away with your incessant baiting.

[Matches Malone]

I don't care about being represented in moroccan(which is mostly arab) or danish medie, why? because we all live on this planet as a HUMAN RACE, everyone is human, the lgbt+, the blacks,the whites and the asians, everyone should be treated with respect, that's what i was trying to say but english is my third language .

I wish more people thought like this. Like I said in my previous respond to you, I watch anime for story and characters, not politics. If I or any other minority (by American standards) is to be represented in a show, then it should only be done if the character is going to be a real character and serve the story, not a random box that needs being checked off.

[Jord]

I agree. I think that if let's say a gay character is introduced it should be a new character or an existing gay dragon ball character. (actually, do we only have Blue and Otokosuki as gay characters? At least the latter got some positive character development)

They shouldn't turn characters gay just for the heck of it. That is where you'll get backlash. And to be honest, it often feels like a rip off to the groups companies are pandering too as well. Instead of getting new super hero, you'll get a second hand version of an existing super hero, something Marvel has done quite a lot in recent years (Look it's Spider-man...but now he's black! Guess what? Ice man is gay now!) Sales and comments from Marvel execs have reflected how this strategy has failed.

Yes a lot of the evergreen Marvel characters are Caucasian males but you're not gonna get new diverse evergreen characters by just using those existing characters as a template.

Also, being gay shouldn't be the character's defining trait. He/She should behave/act like other character and "just" be gay. That being said, they would need help with this since relationships, even straight ones, really aren't well written in Dragon Ball.

[Matches Malone]

Look it's Spider-man...but now he's black!

This isn't completely accurate, as Miles isn't a black Peter Parker, he's a completely new character. If anything, Miles should be the standard of how new characters (minority or otherwise) are handled, as he's become by far one of the best Marvel characters, and he's only been around for a little over a decade. He's got great comics, he got a great animated movie, and is going to get an equally great game later this year.

[Locust]

Yeah....if committing suicide depends on representation in a cartoon show you have deeper problems which you should get examined.

This was unneeded.
Obviously she's not suicidal because of a cartoon, but she's clearly expressed frustration that the majority of media that depicts trans people, depicts them in a negative/stereotypical light.
That's going to cause bad feelings, if that's all you ever see.