What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[Jord]

I agree that he's an interesting character from what I've seen and read. The thing is, he would have been way more unique if he wasn't another Spider-Man but a new character with an alternate identity of his own.

[Matches Malone]

I agree that he's an interesting character from what I've seen and read. The thing is, he would have been way more unique if he wasn't another Spider-Man but a new character with an alternate identity of his own.

I might agree if we were talking about someone else, but Spider-man at this point is known for the countless versions he's got running around the multiverse, so Miles being another one isn't an issue at all, at least not for me.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah....if committing suicide depends on representation in a cartoon show you have deeper problems which you should get examined.

Media: "You're a monster!"
Family: "You're a monster!"
Friends: "You're monster!"
Education: "We're not allowed to talk about you."
Queer people, in particular kids: *Endless suffering*

I don't know how .

I am the only atheist in my muslim familiy, we are berber from morocco(a mostly arab country) and we now live in denmark.

I don't care about being represented in moroccan(which is mostly arab) or danish medie, why? because we all live on this planet as a HUMAN RACE, everyone is human, the lgbt+, the blacks,the whites and the asians, everyone should be treated with respect, that's what i was trying to say but english is my third language .

You know, people should be mad at Dragon ball for not representing the human race right .

Very happy you aren't abused for being you every single day of your life or chased after by cis men who fetishize you.

I wish more people thought like this. Like I said in my previous respond to you, I watch anime for story and characters, not politics. If I or any other minority (by American standards) is to be represented in a show, then it should only be done if the character is going to be a real character and serve the story, not a random box that needs being checked off.

Everything is political, including the stories and characters in your cartoons. You're actually just upset that you have to learn about the manner in which the less privileged have to suffer in our irresponsible media landscape.

I mean, holy fucking shit, you keep insisting people don't want good stories just because we suggest media act more responsibly with its representation of minorities.

[Matches Malone]

You're just upset that you have to learn about the manner in which the less privileged have to suffer in our irresponsible media landscape.

You keep insisting people don't want good stories just because we suggest media act more responsibly with its representation of minorities.

Define privileged.

That's not what I said at all. What I'm saying is that I don't want minorities (which I'm considered by Western standards) to be boxes that need checking off for political points. If my "representation" is going to be limited to Freeza solder #70098, then they might as well not bother.

[Jord]

I agree that he's an interesting character from what I've seen and read. The thing is, he would have been way more unique if he wasn't another Spider-Man but a new character with an alternate identity of his own.

I might agree if we were talking about someone else, but Spider-man at this point is known for the countless versions he's got running around the multiverse, so Miles being another one isn't an issue at all, at least not for me.

Oh it's not a Miles specific thing for me. I dislike other versions of existing heroes in general. Too me it often shows a lack of originality.

I am glad you enjoy it though.

[LoganForkHands73]

I agree that he's an interesting character from what I've seen and read. The thing is, he would have been way more unique if he wasn't another Spider-Man but a new character with an alternate identity of his own.

I might agree if we were talking about someone else, but Spider-man at this point is known for the countless versions he's got running around the multiverse, so Miles being another one isn't an issue at all, at least not for me.

Oh it's not a Miles specific thing for me. I dislike other versions of existing heroes in general. Too me it often shows a lack of originality.

I am glad you enjoy it though.

Him living up to the Spider-Man mantle is hugely important to his development, though. The character simply wouldn't have worked if he went by a different codename or whatever. He was originally introduced in the "Ultimate" universe (Earth-1610 if I remember rightly), full of all the younger and edgier versions of Marvel's heroes where death actually had lasting consequences. In the Ultimate universe, Peter Parker was just flat-out killed off (alongside most of the mainstream heroes), so Miles had a huge legacy to live up to. Peter's death was hugely impactful, mainly since he was really one of the only likeable Ultimate Marvel characters they had. But by golly, they actually did a good job with Miles. Unfortunately, Miles is lumped in with the succession of poorly written minority characters that followed. And the problem wasn't so much that these characters were minorities, just that they were mostly incredibly bland and followed the same formula of living up to a previous hero. That's where it started to feel cheap and insincere. Especially with that laughably crap New Warriors pitch which was perhaps the one good cancellation caused by COVID that was a borderline parody caricature of queers and minorities that appealed to nobody.

Besides, the character has a very distinct visual identity to Peter Parker's Spider-Man with his completely unique costume, which is why they can both coexist in the mainstream Marvel universe with no issue. Another great example of a minority hero using an old mantle is the new Ms. Marvel, Kamala Khan. Beyond having a completely unique power-set, what sets her apart is that she has no real connection to the original Ms. Marvel except for sharing the name which is no longer used by Carol Danvers anyway. Her comic was highly successful and proved to be relatable and inspirational for Muslim kids, while also just being a really fun book in its own right. The trope isn't always bad, it's just badly misused sometimes like all tropes. Most of the Robins are white as flatbread, but because they all have very distinct personalities and roles they all have huge fanbases.

I want good, deep and above all human representation of all people of all walks of life, including all kinds of queer people. Sometimes that means "shoving it in our faces", but that needs to happen because that's arguably a fundamental function of what art should do: challenge our outlooks and perceptions of people. I think in order to get better representation, writers and studios need to understand the human part and realise that queer people need to be written three-dimensionally, with struggles and conflicts. If it still makes some people squirm, so be it. Art doesn't have to be liked and digestible to everyone.

Yeah....if committing suicide depends on representation in a cartoon show you have deeper problems which you should get examined.

And yeah, it's been beaten in already, but this comment really is a bad take.

[Matches Malone]

Art doesn't have to be liked and digestible to everyone.

Art also doesn't have to include everything people want. There are authors who are good at specific things, while bad at others. Toriyama is the last writer we should expect to get into social issues, especially in DB.

[LoganForkHands73]

Art doesn't have to be liked and digestible to everyone.

Art also doesn't have to include everything people want. There are authors who are good at specific things, while bad at others. Toriyama is the last writer we should expect to get into social issues, especially in DB.

You say that but Toriyama already created Whis, a character who is very clearly coded as gay but he's also by far the strongest, wisest character in Universe 7. Whis's femininity doesn't hinder him in the slightest, in fact he's written as incredibly cool, funny and entertaining, which is the goal of all of Toriyama's work -- he didn't make it a social issue, he just wrote it like it's normal, which it is, and it's all we can expect. Most minorities and queer people I know just want to be normalised, not put on an artificial pedestal. I'm not saying that Toriyama absolutely has to write a trans character for example if he doesn't want to, it's all in his hands as an artist to write what he wants, I was just making a general point about writers who do want to make minority characters but are afraid to write them as anything but safe cardboard cutouts. But if we're linking it to Dragon Ball, Toriyama's not the only handler of the Dragon Ball franchise at this point. Toei have already given us Caulifla and Kale and there's nothing stopping their writers from going further.

[JulieYBM]

The coding is so thick on Kale and Caulifla that it's practically dripping off of them. Having them kiss before being erased and then kiss after being restored in Episode #131 would have been the icing on the cake at that point.

[Matches Malone]

You say that but Toriyama already created Whis, a character who is very clearly coded as gay but he's also by far the strongest, wisest character in Universe 7. Whis's femininity doesn't hinder him in the slightest, in fact he's written as incredibly cool, funny and entertaining, which is the goal of all of Toriyama's work -- he didn't make it a social issue, he just wrote it like it's normal, which it is, and it's all we can expect.

Whis is indeed a great example of a well written character.

[SupremeKai25]

Another example of a well-written character who is not straight would be Zamasu. He loved only himself (quite literally) and had a creepy obsession with Goku. Yet the fact that he's not into girls does not hold him back, so much so that Toriyama (by his own admission) wanted Zamasu to be the first Dragon Ball villain who was genuinenly good at his core.

In fact, I'm surprised no one mentioned Zamasu yet, as an example of a character who was very important to the story and was asexual/gay.

[LoganForkHands73]

The coding is so thick on Kale and Caulifla that it's practically dripping off of them. Having them kiss before being erased and then kiss after being restored in Episode #131 would have been the icing on the cake at that point.

That would've been sweet. Maybe they could've been stuck in the same kiss when they reform? The subtext with those two was basically text.

I'd laugh if Universe 6 Saiyans never discovered kissing -- Goku immediately connects, and of course Vegeta has to bring it to their culture...

[JulieYBM]

The coding is so thick on Kale and Caulifla that it's practically dripping off of them. Having them kiss before being erased and then kiss after being restored in Episode #131 would have been the icing on the cake at that point.

That would've been sweet. Maybe they could've been stuck in the same kiss when they reform? The subtext with those two was basically text.

I'd laugh if Universe 6 Saiyans never discovered kissing -- Goku immediately connects, and of course Vegeta has to bring it to their culture...

Lemme pull something out of my purse:

Spoiler:

The white flash faded and the dangerous duo of Saiyans found themselves in the spectator stands among their teammates. With the realization of their loss behind them and their erasure ahead a mood of gloom permeated. Pulling her eyes from the ground, Kale looked into her ane-san's eyes. Typically strong and vibrant--searing holes into the hearts of those she set her sights on--there was a palpable regret in Caulifla's eyes: not of regret for where they had come from but from where they could no longer go.

Dusting off and straightening her skirt, Kale straightened her posture, inhaled, and then lent over to the other Saiyan's ear. Whispering something none could hear into the pink and purple-clad woman's ear Kale added the slightest hint of a seductive smile. Without even seeing the smile Caulifla straightened up, face dyed a reddening hue and let out a bashful giggle as she turned to lock eyes with her long-time friend and right hand. Incredulous at what she had just heard, thoughts of their impending doom slipped from her mind. Pointing a finger at her face, the slightest change of her expression asked all the questions.

Feeling an uncharacteristic mischievousness, Kale bounced forward and let her lips lock with Caulifla's as a white light bathed the Sixth Universe crew.

Gokuu educating the Sixth Universe on what kissing is would be hilarious, though.

[Locust]

I'd laugh if Universe 6 Saiyans never discovered kissing -- Goku immediately connects, and of course Vegeta has to bring it to their culture...

That's an adorable idea!

[LoganForkHands73]

Another example of a well-written character who is not straight would be Zamasu. He loved only himself (quite literally) and had a creepy obsession with Goku. Yet the fact that he's not into girls does not hold him back, so much so that Toriyama (by his own admission) wanted Zamasu to be the first Dragon Ball villain who was genuinenly good at his core.

In fact, I'm surprised no one mentioned Zamasu yet, as an example of a character who was very important to the story and was asexual/gay.

Interesting point. I think all the Kaioshin are asexual like Namekians since they don't need to reproduce, which makes his bizarre affair with Goku Black all the more strange and endearing. Sexual self-love is a real thing so it makes sense to represent that too, and in many ways, Zamasu's self-love is a huge source of strength in spite of his daffy ideals. But realistically, it's more often presented as creepy and malignantly narcissistic.

But that's all part of what makes him a great, flawed, three-dimensional character.

[SupremeKai25]

Another example of a well-written character who is not straight would be Zamasu. He loved only himself (quite literally) and had a creepy obsession with Goku. Yet the fact that he's not into girls does not hold him back, so much so that Toriyama (by his own admission) wanted Zamasu to be the first Dragon Ball villain who was genuinenly good at his core.

In fact, I'm surprised no one mentioned Zamasu yet, as an example of a character who was very important to the story and was asexual/gay.

Interesting point. I think all the Kaioshin are asexual like Namekians since they don't need to reproduce, which makes his bizarre affair with Goku Black all the more strange and endearing. Sexual self-love is a real thing so it makes sense to represent that too, and in many ways, Zamasu's self-love is a huge source of strength in spite of his daffy ideals. But realistically, it's more often presented as creepy and malignantly narcissistic.

But that's all part of what makes him a great, flawed, three-dimensional character.

By "asexual" I meant that he only enjoys the company of himself. The other Kais are not like that, look at the Old Kai. He very clearly was into girls and was a big pervert, whereas Zamasu immediately rejected Bulma.

I don't even think his self-love was presented in a creepy way. Black and Zamasu often chilled while drinking tea, told each other jokes about mortals, one time even hugged each others, that's a wholesome relationship.

[JulieYBM]

Asexual
without sexual feelings or associations.
"asexual individuals may still experience attraction but this attraction doesn't need to be realized in any sexual manner"

I'm not sure if Zamasu was asexual or not but he didn't appear to be aromantic, either, going by the coding of his interactions with Gokuu Black. I imagine those two sort of hate-fucked, with Zamasu being the bottom. Gokuu Black seemed like the type to top and with Black being part Gokuu now I bet it was a sort of cathartics for him to hate-fuck him. I wonder what actual MLM think of their dynamic, though.

[LoganForkHands73]

By "asexual" I meant that he only enjoys the company of himself. The other Kais are not like that, look at the Old Kai. He very clearly was into girls and was a big pervert, whereas Zamasu immediately rejected Bulma.

I don't even think his self-love was presented in a creepy way. Black and Zamasu often chilled while drinking tea, told each other jokes about mortals, one time even hugged each others, that's a wholesome relationship.

Oh yeah, forgot about Old Kai. Maybe it was a combination of being fused with the old witch and being trapped in a sword for billions of years that can do strange things to a Kai... Or maybe he was just an exception to the rule, like with Jabba the Hutt and his humanoid female slaves... Ugh.

By the way, thanks for the comments on my Universe 6 gag everyone That Caulifla/Kale rewrite was pretty peng.

[Locust]

Asexual
without sexual feelings or associations.
"asexual individuals may still experience attraction but this attraction doesn't need to be realized in any sexual manner"

I'm not sure if Zamasu was asexual or not but he didn't appear to be aromantic, either, going by the coding of his interactions with Gokuu Black. I imagine those two sort of hate-fucked, with Zamasu being the bottom. Gokuu Black seemed like the type to top and with Black being part Gokuu now I bet it was a sort of cathartics for him to hate-fuck him. I wonder what actual MLM think of their dynamic, though.

I fall under that umbrella so -

I do view it as an extreme form of self love - like, I feel Zamasu would reject anyone that wasn't himself, he just seems that narcissistic
Personally I do view him as pretty queer, maybe not perfectly aligning with the traditional definition of "gay" since he seems to just love himself, but - he's interesting. Very interesting, I like his character a lot

[JulieYBM]

Asexual
without sexual feelings or associations.
"asexual individuals may still experience attraction but this attraction doesn't need to be realized in any sexual manner"

I'm not sure if Zamasu was asexual or not but he didn't appear to be aromantic, either, going by the coding of his interactions with Gokuu Black. I imagine those two sort of hate-fucked, with Zamasu being the bottom. Gokuu Black seemed like the type to top and with Black being part Gokuu now I bet it was a sort of cathartics for him to hate-fuck him. I wonder what actual MLM think of their dynamic, though.

I fall under that umbrella so -

I do view it as an extreme form of self love - like, I feel Zamasu would reject anyone that wasn't himself, he just seems that narcissistic
Personally I do view him as pretty queer, maybe not perfectly aligning with the traditional definition of "gay" since he seems to just love himself, but - he's interesting. Very interesting, I like his character a lot

Yeah, he makes me think of a a sort of erotic, anthropomorphic take on masturbation. Kind of makes me jealous that Dragon Ball doesn't have---

Oh, shit?! What if a new enemy was a cloned Blooma? Or an alternate universe Blooma where her poisonous attributes eventually made her into a threat of some sort and let Hisakawa Aya play two different characters who interact a lot?