What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Okay. Sorry for putting words in your mouth like that. It was an honest mistake.

[JulieYBM]

You've continually countered my posts criticizing Dragon Ball's practice of exposing children to that kind of content with "Creators should be allowed to do whatever and not listen to 'critics'!" What the hell else am I supposed to derive from that? Do you want to admit to moving the goal posts, then? Say you've just been fucking with me and I will 100% believe you.

I'm talking about general criticisms, what you're talking about is obviously the exception to my rule, which is what I said.

"You have to be able to differentiate between those groups being written badly, and not being written how you want."

There are cases of minorities being written badly for racist purposes, unfortunately, which I'm completely against. I just think it's important to be able to identify what's being written for those purposes, and not mislabel something that isn't that as such because you wanted something else out of it.

Alright. Tell you what. This is me 100% sincerely approaching your argument in this post as if it is/was the only point you are trying to make: casual bigotry is still casual bigotry. Only queer-coding antagonist characters? That's an issue that needs to be stopped. Randomly using racial minorities as antagonists, let alone 2D characters who are antagonists? That needs to be stopped. Porn magazines being in a kids' comic/cartoon? That needs to be stopped. The Muten Roushi running around sexually assault women in a children's show? That needs to be stopped. It's morally reprehensible to throw that into a series aimed at children.

I haven't made any ridiculous demands. Toriyama (and other artists) want to profit off of marginalized people, our names and our cultures (not quite in the case of Toriyama) then they need to be criticized for how they do it.

"You have to be able to differentiate between those groups being written badly, and not being written how you want."

I know the difference because I'm part of those groups being portrayed poorly in the media. Poor-writing of marginalized groups comes from internalized bigotry and being a bad ally. Every horrible form of bigotry isn't just because of intention, it's because it's so normalized within every fiber and layer of our society that people don't even notice. That's why there needs to be intentional discussion, criticism and affirmative action. Bigotry is a cancer and we don't rid ourselves of it by passively waiting for it to go away.

What I'm about to say is not directly aimed at you, it is simply something your line has reminded me of and something I feel needs to be shared just to draw a better picture of what it's like being part of a marginalized group:

Being part of a marginalized community, I'm continually reminded that members of marginalized communities are not listened to. We're not considered experts on our disabilities. We're not considered experts on trans issues by cis people. Women are not considered experts on womens' issues by men. We're not considered experts on women-loving-women issues because we are bisexual or pansexual, et cetera. We see now with the George Floyd protests (after dozens of others) that Black people are not even considered experts on their own issues. The paternalistic rot runs really deep in society and it drives me up the wall, leaving me only with the feeling of being gaslit.

[Matches Malone]

casual bigotry is still casual bigotry.

Only queer-coding antagonist characters? That's an issue that needs to be stopped. Randomly using racial minorities as antagonists, let alone 2D characters who are antagonists? That needs to be stopped.

Porn magazines being in a kids' comic/cartoon? That needs to be stopped. The Muten Roushi running around sexually assault women in a children's show? That needs to be stopped.

Yes, obviously.

If an antagonist is well written, then I don't care what they look like or what their gender is, same as with the protagonist. If they aren't well written, then they either shouldn't be in the story, or the author should go back to the drawing board.

Yes, I agree that both need to stop.

I haven't made any ridiculous demands. Toriyama (and other artists) want to profit off of marginalized people, our names and our cultures.

I don't see how Toriyama's profiting off that when DB is by far consumed for its fighting. There are outdated and inappropriate depictions here and there, but that's by no means a selling point for the franchise.

Bigotry is a cancer and we don't rid ourselves of it by passively waiting for it to go away.

I completely agree, and that what we're fighting against today should've been a done deal decades ago. With that said, I think it's worth mentioning that just because a work of fiction doesn't address the issues, it doesn't mean the author behind it agrees with them. DB is simply not the kind of work that gets involved with social issues, which is what this whole topic is asking it to do.

[ChronoTwigger]

"Gay" evildoers come from ancient eastern myth of eunuchs. They are not modern day gays depictions and SURELY is not a political issue.
Kefka of Final Fantasy 6, for example, was a similar character. A gay individual CAN BE evil, wtf, gays are not angels. Well, they also depict gays with POWER, something that western culture is unable to do without sexual bargains (in western culture gay with success == sexual doll).
That's just an annoying kid rambling going on on socials.

I don't care of Popo. He's not human. At least, NO ONE in my country EVER THOUGHT as Popo as a bad depiction of black people. Sometime it look that evil live in the eye of those spotting evil everywhere...

"Sexual assault" where? You can't ignore that human beings have sexual impulses - Roshi is just an exageration to depict a lewd character - Roshi usually get punished for the tendency so if someone wanna debate the message is "being lewd is a bad thing".


Wanna "modernize" Dragon Ball? Don't watch shows with more complex cultural shades that your age and background can manage. Being conscious is your own responsibility.

[Locust]

"Sexual assault" where?

The multiple non-consensual gropings he does throughout the entire series - c'mon, don't play dumb

[JulieYBM]

"Gay" evildoers come from ancient eastern myth of eunuchs. They are not modern day gays depictions and SURELY is not a political issue.
Kefka of Final Fantasy 6, for example, was a similar character. A gay individual CAN BE evil, wtf, gays are not angels. Well, they also depict gays with POWER, something that western culture is unable to do without sexual bargains (in western culture gay with success == sexual doll).
That's just an annoying kid rambling going on on socials.

I don't care of Popo. He's not human. At least, NO ONE in my country EVER THOUGHT as Popo as a bad depiction of black people. Sometime it look that evil live in the eye of those spotting evil everywhere...

"Sexual assault" where? You can't ignore that human beings have sexual impulses - Roshi is just an exageration to depict a lewd character - Roshi usually get punished for the tendency so if someone wanna debate the message is "being lewd is a bad thing".


Wanna "modernize" Dragon Ball? Don't watch shows with more complex cultural shades that your age and background can manage. Being conscious is your own responsibility.

Homophobia, sexual assault and the unpunished depiction of those things in children's media is not 'culture'.

[AlexSketchy04]

This whole thread reminded me that i want to make a dragon ball american adaptation (animated)

Now, not sure, but they could censor Mr Popo, and probably Roshi, some of the blood would be edited out to be spit, and that's all i can think

[JulieYBM]

Leave previously created Dragon Ball as being 18+ and then just make new adaptions of Dragon Ball that are actually child-friendly (revamp look and dialogue for offensive characters).

The production committee has really dropped the ball with the modern run these past eleven years.

[Matches Malone]

Leave previously created Dragon Ball as being 18+...

DB is as far away from an 18+ as a show can get, especially modern DB. Comments like this show just how misunderstood DB is in the west.

[JulieYBM]

Leave previously created Dragon Ball as being 18+...

DB is as far away from an 18+ as a show can get, especially modern DB. Comments like this show just how misunderstood DB is in the west.

No, minors just shouldn't be watching a show or reading a comic with uncensored pornographic magazines in plain view, homophobic and racist imagery and attempted rape and sexual assault.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Leave previously created Dragon Ball as being 18+...

DB is as far away from an 18+ as a show can get, especially modern DB. Comments like this show just how misunderstood DB is in the west.

No, minors just shouldn't be watching a show or reading a comic with uncensored pornographic magazines in plain view, homophobic and racist imagery and attempted rape and sexual assault.

What if you teach them that all of those thinks are wrong but they can still watch it? (genuine question).

[JulieYBM]

DB is as far away from an 18+ as a show can get, especially modern DB. Comments like this show just how misunderstood DB is in the west.

No, minors just shouldn't be watching a show or reading a comic with uncensored pornographic magazines in plain view, homophobic and racist imagery and attempted rape and sexual assault.

What if you teach them that all of those thinks are wrong but they can still watch it? (genuine question).

Cool, should still be age restricted until they are adults.

Like, y'all, willing showing kids porn is fucking grooming. It's sexual harassment.

[Matches Malone]

Minors just shouldn't be watching a show or reading a comic with uncensored pornographic magazines in plain view, homophobic and racist imagery and attempted rape and sexual assault.

It'd make more sense to just remove those scenes, as the vast majority of them can be removed without impacting the story. Considering how far and few between they are, it'd make more sense to do that then label the entire show as an 18+.

What if you teach them that all of those thinks are wrong but they can still watch it? (genuine question).

Personally speaking, I think you can explain why Black people drawn the way they were is an issue, as removing someone like commander Black or Mr Popo can't be done for story purposes, but I'd just outright remove Roshi's "antics".

[Locust]

DB is as far away from an 18+ as a show can get, especially modern DB. Comments like this show just how misunderstood DB is in the west.

No, minors just shouldn't be watching a show or reading a comic with uncensored pornographic magazines in plain view, homophobic and racist imagery and attempted rape and sexual assault.

What if you teach them that all of those thinks are wrong but they can still watch it? (genuine question).

In many countries, purposely showing minors sexual content is considered "child sexual abuse" - so this really wouldn't fly
The 80s were a very different time, for better or worse - but in these modern times - it really just shouldn't be done

[WittyUsername]

Doesn’t Japanese entertainment for kids still have sexual content to this very day? It doesn’t seem like Japan particularly cares about any ethical concerns regarding exposing kids to that stuff.

[Locust]

Doesn’t Japanese entertainment for kids still have sexual content to this very day? It doesn’t seem like Japan particularly cares about any ethical concerns regarding exposing kids to that stuff.

I'm kind of sick of having to keep repeating myself on this

Hi - please note my location

Japanese people do in fact care about this

[JulieYBM]

Doesn’t Japanese entertainment for kids still have sexual content to this very day? It doesn’t seem like Japan particularly cares about any ethical concerns regarding exposing kids to that stuff.

As Mr. Locust already said: Japan cares. In fact, fuck them in some theoretical universe where they do not care. Showing children sexual content is abuse and we should be critical of people who do these things.

Japanese people care about:

1. Child abuse.
2. Racism.
3. Homophobia.
4. Transphobia.

[Locust]

As Mr. Locust already said: Japan cares. In fact, fuck them in some theoretical universe where they do not care. Showing children sexual content is abuse and we should be critical of people who do these things.

Japanese people care about:

1. Child abuse.
2. Racism.
3. Homophobia.
4. Transphobia.

This reminds me that there was quite a stir when Yuragi-sō no Yūna-san was published in Weekly Shonen Jump - quite a lot of talk of "why is such a ecchi series being put into this magazine, this isn't ok"
Came around the same time there was controversy regarding sexism

I truly believe some people think Japan is an apolitical wonderland.... or get too much info on "Japanese culture" from anime

[pepd]

I thought this was about what a hypothetical reboot WOULD have to do to comply today's standards/demands; do you actually think such reboot SHOULD be made? Why not just make a more censored version for the audiences that require it, if not straight ban it?

[JulieYBM]

As Mr. Locust already said: Japan cares. In fact, fuck them in some theoretical universe where they do not care. Showing children sexual content is abuse and we should be critical of people who do these things.

Japanese people care about:

1. Child abuse.
2. Racism.
3. Homophobia.
4. Transphobia.

This reminds me that there was quite a stir when Yuragi-sō no Yūna-san was published in Weekly Shonen Jump - quite a lot of talk of "why is such a ecchi series being put into this magazine, this isn't ok"
Came around the same time there was controversy regarding sexism

I truly believe some people think Japan is an apolitical wonderland.... or get too much info on "Japanese culture" from anime

Yeah, I've seen that sentiment a lot on Twitter. I don't really get it but I suppose that's what happens when your sole source of knowledge on mainstream Japanese politics...is goofy nerd cartoons, comics, games and light novels and not actually looking into these topics.

Sexism? Racism? Homophobia? Transphobia? Child abuse? Regarded as wrong by the residents of Japan? It's more likely than you think.