What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[WittyUsername]

As Mr. Locust already said: Japan cares. In fact, fuck them in some theoretical universe where they do not care. Showing children sexual content is abuse and we should be critical of people who do these things.

Japanese people care about:

1. Child abuse.
2. Racism.
3. Homophobia.
4. Transphobia.

This reminds me that there was quite a stir when Yuragi-sō no Yūna-san was published in Weekly Shonen Jump - quite a lot of talk of "why is such a ecchi series being put into this magazine, this isn't ok"
Came around the same time there was controversy regarding sexism

I truly believe some people think Japan is an apolitical wonderland.... or get too much info on "Japanese culture" from anime

I definitely never suggested that Japan is apolitical. I was simply saying that they have some pretty lax standards when it comes to what’s allowed to be shown to kids. They’re not even necessarily alone in that either. Even American entertainment for kids can be like that at times. That’s why Jessica Rabbit was allowed to exist. Hell, Animaniacs had this joke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xmAC9Qu908).

[JulieYBM]

As Mr. Locust already said: Japan cares. In fact, fuck them in some theoretical universe where they do not care. Showing children sexual content is abuse and we should be critical of people who do these things.

Japanese people care about:

1. Child abuse.
2. Racism.
3. Homophobia.
4. Transphobia.

This reminds me that there was quite a stir when Yuragi-sō no Yūna-san was published in Weekly Shonen Jump - quite a lot of talk of "why is such a ecchi series being put into this magazine, this isn't ok"
Came around the same time there was controversy regarding sexism

I truly believe some people think Japan is an apolitical wonderland.... or get too much info on "Japanese culture" from anime

I definitely never suggested that Japan is apolitical. I was simply saying that they have some pretty lax standards when it comes to what’s allowed to be shown to kids. They’re not even necessarily alone in that either. Even American entertainment for kids can be like that at times. That’s why Jessica Rabbit was allowed to exist.

Going to go ahead and submit that such an Obviously Horny Character being handled the way she was should have made the film R-rated and it is worth criticizing the people responsible for the child-friendly marketing of the film.

Sure would be nice to get that uncensored version of the movie in HD, too...

Like, the film just barely passes a "We're making fun of perverts" when that Weasel sexually assaults Jessica but even then...like...really? Showing a person with breasts being unwillingly touched in a kid-friendly film? Eeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhh, that's pretty bad.

[Locust]

I definitely never suggested that Japan is apolitical. I was simply saying that they have some pretty lax standards when it comes to what’s allowed to be shown to kids. They’re not even necessarily alone in that either. Even American entertainment for kids can be like that at times. That’s why Jessica Rabbit was allowed to exist.

My statement about apoliticalness was a general statement, not specifically directed at you

Yes, it is absolutely true that there is some lax standards - which is why there is Japanese people talking out against it
So, tbh, your previous statement of "It doesn’t seem like Japan particularly cares" is a bit... nonsensical

I posted an article regarding sexism within a shounen magazine - I suspect a lot of this laxness comes from the fact that, the same kinds of people keep getting hired as editors and such over and over
I suspect if younger generations, people with a bit more diverse backgrounds, were hired - things would change

As it stands.... it's the same old, same old

[WittyUsername]

I definitely never suggested that Japan is apolitical. I was simply saying that they have some pretty lax standards when it comes to what’s allowed to be shown to kids. They’re not even necessarily alone in that either. Even American entertainment for kids can be like that at times. That’s why Jessica Rabbit was allowed to exist.

My statement about apoliticalness was a general statement, not specifically directed at you

Yes, it is absolutely true that there is some lax standards - which is why there is Japanese people talking out against it
So, tbh, your previous statement of "It doesn’t seem like Japan particularly cares" is a bit... nonsensical

I posted an article regarding sexism within a shounen magazine - I suspect a lot of this laxness comes from the fact that, the same kinds of people keep getting hired as editors and such over and over
I suspect if younger generations, people with a bit more diverse backgrounds, were hired - things would change

As it stands.... it's the same old, same old

I never doubted that there are people in Japan who are concerned about that stuff, but whatever the Japanese equivalent of standards and practices is, they don’t seem to be listening. Not sure why you assumed I was putting every single Japanese person under an umbrella.

[Locust]

Not sure why you assumed I was putting every single Japanese person under an umbrella.

I can only go by what you comment - you did make a comment that seemed to be making generalizations, so I responded as such

Now that I understand more what you meant - yeah I don't particularly disagree that there's some laxness going on in the industry

[emperior]

[*]Women-creating the series. Toei Animation has access to plenty of female creators, lets see them have even more prominent roles in creating Dragon Ball! Heck, let's see if any non-binary people are also on hand that can be involved more heavily in the creative process. Let's see what kind of work people other than men can make![/list]

I was reading the thread and, sorry, but I have to stop you here. While your other points are something we could agree on, this is just too wrong to not be addressed.

What you are suggesting is to let the selection of people to handle a possible reboot be influenced by the sexuality and not by the skill of the individuals. Who the heck cares what the creators of DB like when they get intimate? People should be chosen based on their skill, their knowledge of DB, their passion for it etcetera but surely NOT on their sex or sexuality.
What the heck does it have to do with the show? Again, what you are saying sounds as bad as saying “let only men work on DB because only men understand it”. It’s the same principle but reversed. It’s still sexist.

I am all for Megumi Ishitani to be the series director of a new Dragon Ball Super show if it ever comes back, or the director of a new movie. I would also be very happy to see her working on anything Dragon Ball, in any capacity. Because she’s fucking brilliant and has shown to be very capable with her direction of episode 131 of Super.
But I don’t give a damn that she’s a woman. All that matters is that she’s capable. And so I wouldn’t give a damn if the next show was handled by only men, only women, only non-binary people or only *insert sexuality*. As long as they are all capable and chosen on their ability and passion and not on their sex or sexual liking.

So this is not one standard I feel a possible reboot or new show should comply to. That’s a standard Toei Animation have to comply to. They have to hire people regardless of their gender or sexuality. But if those people are then sent to work on various shows because of a myriad of reasons and DB is back to being handled mostly by men, then so be it.
Maybe Ishitani doesn’t want to work on DB anymore, and that’s fine. Let she work on something she likes more.

As for the main thread question: why is it even a question in the first place? We already have Dragon Ball Super as an example of a DB show which complies to today’s international standards. So, almost to no gore and blood, no caricatures of gay people (ex. Blue or the guy at the 28th Budokai Tenkaichi), no characters which could be seen as caricaturing black people (lipless Popo, less black face guys), toned down sexual jokes and no poking by Kame Sennin and surely no naked Bulma and Goku pat-patting. Let’s just ignore episode 89, which was a fail by Toei and in fact it wasn’t aired in some countries, and those scenes of Kame Sennin training with Puar.

[Matches Malone]

What you are suggesting is to let the selection of people to handle a possible reboot be influenced by the sexuality and not by the skill of the individuals. People should be chosen based on their skill, their knowledge of DB, their passion for it etcetera but surely NOT on their sex or sexuality.

Some people's solution to fighting racism and sexism is to unfortunately become what they're fighting against. When it comes to Megumi Ishitani, I'd pay good $$$ to see her take over DB, as episode 131 was nothing short of amazing.

[Jord]

Doesn’t Japanese entertainment for kids still have sexual content to this very day? It doesn’t seem like Japan particularly cares about any ethical concerns regarding exposing kids to that stuff.

As Mr. Locust already said: Japan cares. In fact, fuck them in some theoretical universe where they do not care. Showing children sexual content is abuse and we should be critical of people who do these things.

Japanese people care about:

1. Child abuse.
2. Racism.
3. Homophobia.
4. Transphobia.

It's not that I don't believe you but do you have some statistics to back that up? I was always under the impression that the Japanese people care less about these issues than Europe/America, especially when it comes to racism regarding foreigners. I would be glad to be proven wrong on this.

[Locust]

It's not that I don't believe you but do you have some statistics to back that up? I was always under the impression that the Japanese people care less about these issues than Europe/America, especially when it comes to racism regarding foreigners. I would be glad to be proven wrong on this.

Stats, I'm not sure what you mean by that, but here are some links relating to what Julie talked about

Black Lives Matter march/March against police brutality against a non-Japanese person, in Tokyo
and in Osaka

Article about Japanese LGBT+ rights activists

Action Against Child Exploitation, Japanese non-profit organization

[Jord]

It's not that I don't believe you but do you have some statistics to back that up? I was always under the impression that the Japanese people care less about these issues than Europe/America, especially when it comes to racism regarding foreigners. I would be glad to be proven wrong on this.

Stats, I'm not sure what you mean by that, but here are some links relating to what Julie talked about

Black Lives Matter march/March against police brutality against a non-Japanese person, in Tokyo
and in Osaka

Article about Japanese LGBT+ rights activists

Action Against Child Exploitation, Japanese non-profit organization

What I meant with stats is things like polls/research for example that shows that a significant part of the Japanese population cares about these issues. There are always people the care about issues, in every country, but unless the percentage of people isn't significant, it won't get much traction and mean much in the long run.

You've shared some interesting articles, thank you, but other than the same-sex marriage article it doesn't exactly show that a large part of Japan cares about these issues. Not saying they don't but a BLM march of 3,500 people isn't that large in a population of around 14 million people. How do the Japanese care about these issues on a national scale, or hell, what's the opinion of just those millions of people living in Tokyo?

[Locust]

What I meant with stats is things like polls/research for example that shows that a significant part of the Japanese population cares about these issues. There are always people the care about issues, in every country, but unless the percentage of people isn't significant, it won't get much traction and mean much in the long run.

You've shared some interesting articles, thank you, but other than the same-sex marriage article it doesn't exactly show that a large part of Japan cares about these issues. Not saying they don't but a BLM march of 3,500 people isn't that large in a population of around 14 million people. How do the Japanese care about these issues on a national scale, or hell, what's the opinion of just those millions of people living in Tokyo?

I get what you mean with regards to stats now, thank you for explaining, I'll have a look around for any research of such things in English when I have the time
I did find this in the meantime, however

3,500 isn't a huge amount, no - but that particular march was organized quickly and very on the fly (mainly concentrated on twitter) while during a pandemic. Taking all that into account, that's a pretty good turn out
Had this been organized for longer, and not during a pandemic, I suspect that there would have been more people - but that is admittedly just conjecture

I'm not gonna pretend there isn't race issues in Japan - there certainly is, some very major issues, we should all strive to be better and learn more about each other

I would say the younger generation (like in the 20s) are a lot more open minded and willing to learn about other people and cultures, as the world becomes more open with the internet, it's just inevitable that we make connections with all different people
(Not to say that all older people are closed minded, but I would by lying if I didn't admit that I do sometimes hear worrying sentiments from elders)

I think there is a gradual shift, this is all anecdotal however and from my own experiences, so not like ... solid evidence? If that's the right term, so understandable if you disregard

I think it will be very interesting to see what happens when the younger generation gets older and moves into political positions and such - I am very optimistic there will be positive changes

[JulieYBM]

I was reading the thread and, sorry, but I have to stop you here. While your other points are something we could agree on, this is just too wrong to not be addressed.

What you are suggesting is to let the selection of people to handle a possible reboot be influenced by the sexuality and not by the skill of the individuals. Who the heck cares what the creators of DB like when they get intimate? People should be chosen based on their skill, their knowledge of DB, their passion for it etcetera but surely NOT on their sex or sexuality.
What the heck does it have to do with the show? Again, what you are saying sounds as bad as saying “let only men work on DB because only men understand it”. It’s the same principle but reversed. It’s still sexist.

I am all for Megumi Ishitani to be the series director of a new Dragon Ball Super show if it ever comes back, or the director of a new movie. I would also be very happy to see her working on anything Dragon Ball, in any capacity. Because she’s fucking brilliant and has shown to be very capable with her direction of episode 131 of Super.
But I don’t give a damn that she’s a woman. All that matters is that she’s capable. And so I wouldn’t give a damn if the next show was handled by only men, only women, only non-binary people or only *insert sexuality*. As long as they are all capable and chosen on their ability and passion and not on their sex or sexual liking.

So this is not one standard I feel a possible reboot or new show should comply to. That’s a standard Toei Animation have to comply to. They have to hire people regardless of their gender or sexuality. But if those people are then sent to work on various shows because of a myriad of reasons and DB is back to being handled mostly by men, then so be it.
Maybe Ishitani doesn’t want to work on DB anymore, and that’s fine. Let she work on something she likes more.

As for the main thread question: why is it even a question in the first place? We already have Dragon Ball Super as an example of a DB show which complies to today’s international standards. So, almost to no gore and blood, no caricatures of gay people (ex. Blue or the guy at the 28th Budokai Tenkaichi), no characters which could be seen as caricaturing black people (lipless Popo, less black face guys), toned down sexual jokes and no poking by Kame Sennin and surely no naked Bulma and Goku pat-patting. Let’s just ignore episode 89, which was a fail by Toei and in fact it wasn’t aired in some countries, and those scenes of Kame Sennin training with Puar.

People who are not cishet men have different experiences than cishet men, so yeah. I'm not saying hire someone on the level of Yamamuro Tadayoshi, I'm saying "This sexist fucking studio already has a number of talented women, let's let them handle a franchise that has traditionally not had women in leadership roles and even only just recently has had animation supervisors who are women."

It's not that I don't believe you but do you have some statistics to back that up? I was always under the impression that the Japanese people care less about these issues than Europe/America, especially when it comes to racism regarding foreigners. I would be glad to be proven wrong on this.

Stats, I'm not sure what you mean by that, but here are some links relating to what Julie talked about

Black Lives Matter march/March against police brutality against a non-Japanese person, in Tokyo
and in Osaka

Article about Japanese LGBT+ rights activists

Action Against Child Exploitation, Japanese non-profit organization

Opinions on transgender people in Japan also offer support for them. That last statistic is weird as hell, though.

[Matches Malone]

I'm saying "This sexist fucking studio already has a number of talented women, let's let them handle a franchise that has traditionally not had women in leadership roles and even only just recently has had animation supervisors who are women."

How is the studio sexist when you yourself are admitting that not only do they hire talented women, they're even beginning to give them bigger roles within the franchise ? A term such as sexist shouldn't be used so casually, as it'll eventually start losing its weight and when there is a real issue, people might not take it seriously.

It's also worth mentioning that maybe the reason not many women have worked on DB (I could be wrong, I'm not familiar with the staff) is because they're not interested in it ? You do realize that there are things that men are more interested in than women, and vice versa, right ?

[goku the krump dancer]

Aside from toning down Roshi's antics, which can be done in a cool way, I feel like Jiraiya and his pervy antics were a step in the right direction from what I can remember and getting rid of the Broken Speech that Popo speaks with ( which is Toei's fault, not Toriyama's I believe) then we should be Aye Okay!

Oh Also not having General Blue flirt with a little boy. Aside from that though, not much else has to change. It's a lot simpler than some of us are making it out to be.

That said though, conforming for the sake of trying to fit everyone's standards is a huge "No-NO", when telling a story or creating a piece of entertainment, you usually have a core audience in mind and while yes its gonna reach the eyes of folks of other demographics eventually, trying to please everyone will ultimately please no one.

[Matches Malone]

Aside from toning down Roshi's antics and getting rid of the Broken Speech that Popo speaks with then we should be Aye Okay! Oh Also not having General Blue flirt with a little boy.

When telling a story or creating a piece of entertainment, you usually have a core audience in mind and while yes its gonna reach the eyes of folks of other demographics eventually, trying to please everyone will ultimately please no one.

I think Popo's speech is an English only translation, and Blue's interest in that kid was anime only, meaning they have nothing to do with Toriyama's vision, so they have no business being around in the first place. That's not to say they'd be OK if Toriyama wrote them, I just think it's worth mentioning he didn't. When it comes to Roshi, I agree his antics should've been toned down, as you can still have the woman loving old master without it being presented in an uncomfortable manner.

The problem with trying to please people is that there are too many people to please. By the time you're done catering to every demand and complaint, not only will you end up not satisfying anyone, your vision will more or less be completely lost.

[jjgp1112]

Aside from toning down Roshi's antics, which can be done in a cool way, I feel like Jiraiya and his pervy antics were a step in the right direction from what I can remember and getting rid of the Broken Speech that Popo speaks with ( which is Toei's fault, not Toriyama's I believe) then we should be Aye Okay!

Oh Also not having General Blue flirt with a little boy. Aside from that though, not much else has to change. It's a lot simpler than some of us are making it out to be.

That said though, conforming for the sake of trying to fit everyone's standards is a huge "No-NO", when telling a story or creating a piece of entertainment, you usually have a core audience in mind and while yes its gonna reach the eyes of folks of other demographics eventually, trying to please everyone will ultimately please no one.

I hate the idea that every show has to appeal to every single periphery demographic that might watch it, or that they're obligated to make social statements.

[WittyUsername]

I’m sure that there are plenty of manga/anime that are good in terms of representation and inclusiveness, but Dragon Ball has never been that kind of series, and I don’t think a hypothetical reboot that tries to be like that would fare very well.

[Matches Malone]

I’m sure that there are plenty of manga/anime that are good in terms of representation and inclusiveness, but Dragon Ball has never been that kind of series, and I don’t think a hypothetical reboot that tries to be like that would fare very well.

If any character is introduced to just tick a box, which is what some people seem to want, then they're destined to fail, be that in DB or any other show.

[MyVisionity]

Let's see what kind of work people other than men can make!

Again, what you are saying sounds as bad as saying “let only men work on DB because only men understand it”. It’s the same principle but reversed. It’s still sexist.

There's absolutely nothing sexist about it. Nobody said it should be "women only". Men are different from women and women are different from men. Hiring more women will almost inevitably produce different results in the story and franchise than if it were a male-dominated office.

Does the idea of seeing more women perspectives bother you this much?

What you are suggesting is to let the selection of people to handle a possible reboot be influenced by the sexuality and not by the skill of the individuals. People should be chosen based on their skill, their knowledge of DB, their passion for it etcetera but surely NOT on their sex or sexuality.

Some people's solution to fighting racism and sexism is to unfortunately become what they're fighting against.

I don't think that anyone has suggested using racist or sexist solutions to fight racism and sexism in this thread.

Does the idea of fighting racism and sexism bother you this much?

Aside from toning down Roshi's antics and getting rid of the Broken Speech that Popo speaks with then we should be Aye Okay! Oh Also not having General Blue flirt with a little boy.

I think Popo's speech is an English only translation, and Blue's interest in that kid was anime only, meaning they have nothing to do with Toriyama's vision, so they have no business being around in the first place.

Mister Popo speaks in that manner in the original Japanese, so I don't know what you mean by "English only translation". And, unless I'm mistaken, Toriyama gave him that speech in the manga.

But, either way, to say that they have nothing to do with Toriyama's vision is false. Popo is a racist caricature regardless of his manner of speech. And Blue's character is written as a homophobic stereotype from the beginning. So Toei was only following the path Toriyama laid out himself.

[Matches Malone]

Does the idea of seeing more women perspectives bother you this much?

Does the idea of fighting racism and sexism bother you this much?

Mister Popo speaks in that manner in the original Japanese, so I don't know what you mean by "English only translation".

Didn't you see that both of us would welcome who worked on EP131 getting a bigger role in the franchise ?

Of course not, especially with me being a minority, I just see a lot of people fighting it by becoming it.

I wasn't sure, and in that case I'd change that as well, alongside some of the outdated designs he gave Black people.