Comparison shots from every single DBZ release

[KBABZ]

I will also say, and this is just my preference, but I think Kai looks really, really good.

I like Kai's colour grade, but I will say that the blur is rather excessive, to the point where a lot of the time you question if it's actually HD.

[SuperSayainSnape]

Really, even on the Blu Ray? Maybe its worth saving money to just go for the DVDs then? (There are some crazy good deals for Kai, but only for the DVDs).

I'm interested in picking up Kai, just to get a fresh take on the show. How tolerable is the misplaced Kikuchi music? Is it worth trying to track down the copies that have the Yamamoto score? I'm not even sure I can guarantee that parts 1-4 (instead of seasons) will contain it since, as far as I understand it, some of the copies were reprinted with the replacement score, regardless of their label.

I've been putting off Kai just because of the soundtrack issues.

Like Faulconer? Well that's not an option.

Like Kikuchi? Well you only get some of the tracks, and they're out of order/misplaced.

Like Yamamoto? Well that score is hard to find and won't cover the whole series.

Without knowing anything about Kai, I suspect Yamamoto would be the best fit, since it was designed for that show specifically. Its a shame about the plagriasm scandal.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Awesome, thanks for including the Funi Single. The singles are the biggest competition against the Black Bricks for me, wanting 4:3 with Faulconer score.

Thanks a lot. I decided to throw in the Funi Single because obviously the Level Sets never got this far, and I wanted atleast 4 different versions of a particular moment to compare. I was going to use the 2014 Season Set but I changed my mind.

Do you actually own the Black Bricks and that is how you are doing your comparison? Not that I'd judge the reliability of the images any less. Just wanted to know if your experience with the Bricks themselves are firsthand or not.

No I do not own the Black Bricks. Don't think I can say specifically how I got the episode, but I'm sure you can connect the dots. I'd rather use 350 dollars as toilet paper than use it to buy that set.

I actually think the Funi Single looks better, despite the significantly lower res. Its those colors on the Black Bricks! Maybe I won't notice it too much watching it in a Bubble.

Actually these singles and the DBox have the same resolution, it's just the bitrate that makes the single look worse than it really should. DBox has a much higher bitrate, so it's able to look better despite the same 480p resolution.

I've debated trying to collect the all of the dvd singles (I can't think of any other way to get 4:3 with Faulconer), but I feel like that would be even more expensive than getting the price gouged Black Bricks, as there are so many to collect and some of them are rare.

I'm not too sure about the market for the old singles. But I could imagine that trying to get all 80+ releases would easily rack up a high price tag. Also there is the fact that the UUE releases were canceled in favor of the Orange Bricks, so for those collecting the singles, there will still be a gap where your only option is the Ocean dub.

I will also say, and this is just my preference, but I think Kai looks really, really good.

Honestly I think until there is a good, complete remaster of DBZ, Kai will be the best the series has ever look in high definition. But besides the video department, Kai is my go to way to watch Z. I like the vastly improved dub, and much better manga-like pacing it brings.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Really, even on the Blu Ray? Maybe its worth saving money to just go for the DVDs then? (There are some crazy good deals for Kai, but only for the DVDs).

I'm interested in picking up Kai, just to get a fresh take on the show. How tolerable is the misplaced Kikuchi music? Is it worth trying to track down the copies that have the Yamamoto score? I'm not even sure I can guarantee that parts 1-4 (instead of seasons) will contain it since, as far as I understand it, some of the copies were reprinted with the replacement score, regardless of their label.

I've been putting off Kai just because of the soundtrack issues.

Like Faulconer? Well that's not an option.

Like Kikuchi? Well you only get some of the tracks, and they're out of order/misplaced.

Like Yamamoto? Well that score is hard to find and won't cover the whole series.

Without knowing anything about Kai, I suspect Yamamoto would be the best fit, since it was designed for that show specifically. Its a shame about the plagriasm scandal.

To answer your soundtrack woes...

1. If you are willing to do some dirty work, fans HAVE created a complete Faulconer replacement score for Kai. See here ---> viewtopic.php?t=40195 Covers all 167 episodes

2. Kikuchi Kai for what it was, a rushed re-replacement, it turned out pretty alright. Obviously they did not put the effort to matching the original compositions and music placements of the Z episodes 1:1 to Kai, so it is kind of sloppy. Imagine it as an "Alternate Kikuchi Score". Only to EP 98

But to me I still like it. I can't be totally non-biased because I'm a bit of a purist. To me, Kikuchi's score is the only music that belongs in DBZ, no matter what form it is. Any other score to me sounds mis-matched or totally out of place.

3. Again, for Yamamoto score, fans have made a Yamamoto revival. Making custom scores for EP's 96-98 as they never had their scores done before Toei scalped Yamamoto. It will take some work, but it's an option. See here --> viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27787 Only goes to EP 98

4. Sumitomo score for 1-98 --> viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42116

As for Kai TFC, any projects to create replacement scores for them have all teetered off in some way. There is a way to have all 167 episodes with Sumitomo or Faulconer score, but not the other way around. As of now there is no way to have a complete Kai run with Kikuchi or Yamamoto to my information.

[KBABZ]

Really, even on the Blu Ray? Maybe its worth saving money to just go for the DVDs then? (There are some crazy good deals for Kai, but only for the DVDs).

I'm interested in picking up Kai, just to get a fresh take on the show. How tolerable is the misplaced Kikuchi music? Is it worth trying to track down the copies that have the Yamamoto score? I'm not even sure I can guarantee that parts 1-4 (instead of seasons) will contain it since, as far as I understand it, some of the copies were reprinted with the replacement score, regardless of their label.

The general consensus is that Kai is only really worth it as a dub fan simply because the writing and performances are so much more improved from the original dub. Everyone is familiar with their characters and their performances, and Coleen's vocal evolution as Gohan is amazing to see evolve over the course of the show. If you primarily watch in Japanese, Kai isn't worth it because all the VAs are tired and aged, so you may as well watch the original Z for that. The Final Chapters is also a waste of time for similar reasons, but the forced 16:9 crop, green colour grade and some episodes being a 1:1 match of the Z episodes make it even less appealing for Japanese audio viewers.

As for the Kikuchi score, it's fine. The main problem is how the replacement score was done: instead of trying to match the score with Z, it was a replacement of the Yamamoto tracks with their closest Kikuchi equivalents that didn't reprise Head Cha La. So while it's authentically 80s (and technically in better quality than in Z), it's just as repetitive a Yamamoto's score is.

I jumped into Kai as my first proper watch of Z (which I did via the dub), and it was a total blast. The faster pace does wonders for the show where it always feels like something happened in each episode, and it improves Namek immensely by turning it into a super-tense game of chess. You do have to put up with a lot of hastily-redrawn shots however, which were often done simply to get a good 16:9 version for broadcast.

[ArmenianPepsi]

The general consensus is that Kai is only really worth it as a dub fan simply because the writing and performances are so much more improved from the original dub. Everyone is familiar with their characters and their performances, and Coleen's vocal evolution as Gohan is amazing to see evolve over the course of the show. If you primarily watch in Japanese, Kai isn't worth it because all the VAs are tired and aged, so you may as well watch the original Z for that. The Final Chapters is also a waste of time for similar reasons, but the forced 16:9 crop, green colour grade and some episodes being a 1:1 match of the Z episodes make it even less appealing for Japanese audio viewers.

I can agree with you there. Nothing stopping you from watching Kai in Japanese, for example Nozawa and Horikawa could still put on very lively, high energy performances in Kai, but it just won't be the same as listening to them playing Goku and Vegeta in their prime. It isn't a good substitute.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Whipped up another comparison. This one is a character shot of Bulma, Yamcha and Vegeta in Episode 119

Full Gallery --> https://imgur.com/gallery/RXIGIK0

[SuperSayainSnape]

No I do not own the Black Bricks. Don't think I can say specifically how I got the episode, but I'm sure you can connect the dots. I'd rather use 350 dollars as toilet paper than use it to buy that set.

I mean, if I had that literal choice, I'd still take the Black Bricks. But I do get your point. Funimation (when it comes to DBZ) makes me so mad. I know it is somewhat apples and oranges, but without even trying to get a good deal, Batman TAS, the whole series + movies, can be gotten new for 55 bucks. Its 4:3. And its a pretty solid remaster, at least to my untrained eye. But even I can see the problems with the OB and Season Blu Rays.

I'm not too sure about the market for the old singles. But I could imagine that trying to get all 80+ releases would easily rack up a high price tag. Also there is the fact that the UUE releases were canceled in favor of the Orange Bricks, so for those collecting the singles, there will still be a gap where your only option is the Ocean dub.

Yeah I tried shopping around and it quickly got out of hand. I grew up watching DBZ during the Toonami broadcast, so I actually prefer the Ocean dub. I know it is hilariously bad, but as a kid, Brian Drummond solidified Vegeta for me. To this day, I think his performance is legitimately good (not always the script though, obviously). His voice just contained pure scheme and ambition.

To answer your soundtrack woes...

Thanks for this, as I might just give up on the Black Bricks and give Kai a try instead.

But to me I still like it. I can't be totally non-biased because I'm a bit of a purist. To me, Kikuchi's score is the only music that belongs in DBZ, no matter what form it is. Any other score to me sounds mis-matched or totally out of place.

I'm glad to hear that as a purist, you don't dislike the Kikuchi score too much. And if you find that, despite Kikuchi clearly being superior in the original DBZ for obvious reasons, Kai might still be the better experience on account of being faster paced, then that sounds great, too.

I'm about to finish Dragon Ball for the first time and am trying to figure out the best way to re-watch DBZ (then will do Super for the first time after that).

At first I didn't like the Kikuchi score, being used to Faulconer, but it has really grown on me. And regardless of how repetitive it is in Kai, as long as it knows when to back off and be quiet (like in Dragon Ball), then I can see myself managing. Even as a Faulconer fan, I've really enjoyed the more minimalist approach and letting scenes just breathe a bit.

The Final Chapters is also a waste of time for similar reasons, but the forced 16:9 crop, green colour grade and some episodes being a 1:1 match of the Z episodes make it even less appealing for Japanese audio viewers.

Is the Buu saga at least heavily trimmed down like the rest of the show? I only ask because the Buu saga was my least favorite part of DBZ back in the Toonami days (never even finished it). I'll take the 16:9, green tint, etc if I can get it over with more quickly. (No offense to those who do like the Buu saga, its just my own tastes).

[SuperSayainSnape]

Once again the Black Bricks do just fine with the cropping. It actually shows more of the frame on the left than do the DBoxes. And the ground in the background between Vegeta and Bulma actually looks pretty sharp and defined here. At least, it really pops out kind of nice and sharp, even compared to the other frames.

Aside from its usual horribly saturated colors, I think is one of the better Black Brick examples. But the colors are still just a bit too much for me. Maybe I'm pickier than I thought

[KBABZ]

I'm about to finish Dragon Ball for the first time and am trying to figure out the best way to re-watch DBZ (then will do Super for the first time after that).

That depends on what dub you're watching. If it's the Japanese version, you should watch Z and maybe make some smart decisions on skipping through filler episodes between major arcs and story beats. If you're watching dubbed, congratulations you can go through Kai and The Final Chapters!

At first I didn't like the Kikuchi score, being used to Faulconer, but it has really grown on me. And regardless of how repetitive it is in Kai, as long as it knows when to back off and be quiet (like in Dragon Ball), then I can see myself managing. Even as a Faulconer fan, I've really enjoyed the more minimalist approach and letting scenes just breathe a bit.

Kai definitely does a great job on knowing when not to play music. Since you're coming off of Dragon Ball, I'd actually recommend the Kikuchi Replacement score simply because it'll feel more audibly consistent with the style from Dragon Ball. The original Z does an even better job of this though because Kikuchi does still use some OG-DB tracks from time to time, and similar to the original anime it uses the title theme, Head Cha La, as a recurring theme for the show in general (which GT would repeat with Dan Dan). That's the one positive about Yamamoto; he weaves Dragon Soul into some of his tracks.

The Final Chapters is also a waste of time for similar reasons, but the forced 16:9 crop, green colour grade and some episodes being a 1:1 match of the Z episodes make it even less appealing for Japanese audio viewers.

Is the Buu saga at least heavily trimmed down like the rest of the show? I only ask because the Buu saga was my least favorite part of DBZ back in the Toonami days (never even finished it). I'll take the 16:9, green tint, etc if I can get it over with more quickly. (No offense to those who do like the Buu saga, its just my own tastes).

Sadly not really. TFC was done to meet a certain episode quota, so it only really cuts out about two-fifths of the original version (compared to half for Kai). Moreover it keeps some rather bizarre filler sections, such as the "He's Always Late" episode that precedes End of Z, much of the Great Saiyaman filler, and even scenes in Hell where the two "HFIL" trolls recognize Goku as "that guy who fell off Snake Way" even though that scene was cut from the original Kai.

There is however a second version of TFC that trims things down even further, but that was done only for Japan so I don't think an English version of it exists. TFC's development history is a bit of a mess. It's also worth noting that The Final Chapters ALSO had its music replaced with Sumitomo's work on BoG, RoF and Super, but similar to Kai there's not nearly enough tracks to offset it feeling repetitive.

[SuperSayainSnape]

I think Kai will be a good fit. If for no other reason than I've never seen it, so it will be more fresh.

Sadly not really. TFC was done to meet a certain episode quota, so it only really cuts out about two-fifths of the original version (compared to half for Kai). Moreover it keeps some rather bizarre filler sections, such as the "He's Always Late" episode that precedes End of Z, much of the Great Saiyaman filler, and even scenes in Hell where the two "HFIL" trolls recognize Goku as "that guy who fell off Snake Way" even though that scene was cut from the original Kai.

At least I'll have the recast and redub still. Maaaaybe I'll even end up liking the Buu saga with the improved dialogue.

How well does the Funi dub for Dragon Ball stick to the original Japanese dialogue? I know the remastered Funi dub is bad at this, the Kai dub is good. Was curious where the Funi dub for Dragon Ball.

1. If you are willing to do some dirty work, fans HAVE created a complete Faulconer replacement score for Kai. See here ---> viewtopic.php?t=40195 Covers all 167 episodes

By dirty work, do you mean technically illegal? If I were to do something like this, do you know if it matters whether I have Parts 1-11 on Blu Ray, or Seasions 1-7 on Blu Ray?

I may just go with Kikuchi anyway, but being able to revisit certain moments or episodes with a different score would be nice.

EDIT: I also somehow missed that there is a Kikuchi revival! So that would be cool.

[KBABZ]

How well does the Funi dub for Dragon Ball stick to the original Japanese dialogue? I know the remastered Funi dub is bad at this, the Kai dub is good. Was curious where the Funi dub for Dragon Ball.

OG-DB is better... but it's still not faithful a lot of the time. The context of several scenes is completely changed, and in several instances this causes contradictions regarding Piccolo being an alien who travelled the galaxy (which clearly didn't happen). It also means that Goku promising Chi-Chi to have a wedding never actually happens; this is corrected in a later Colonel Silver filler scene, but not when they flash back to the Pilaf Arc during their Tournament match later. As usual a lot of the more mystic elements don't appear, but other than that it still carries the core thrust and meaning of the story. This does have the benefit however of obfuscating several of the more raunchy and grossly inappropriate scenes, such as Oolong heading upstairs in the double-decker camper, Blue meeting Obotchaman in Penguin Village, or Roshi asking Bulma for a walk around his island, among others.

Going from the OG-DB dub to Kai is actually a fairly seamless transition: Rial starts leaning towards Vollmer's take on Bulma intentionally, and the only stumbling blocks are Sabat's more considered take on Piccolo and Oolong's complete VO change (which reverts for TFC). Oh and Schemmel going from an unbearably nasally Goku to his much better modern performance.

EDIT: I also somehow missed that there is a Kikuchi revival! So that would be cool.

I plan to, at some point in the future, do a proper Kikuchi Kai + TFC that does accurately replace the music in Kai with the correct tracks from the original Z, but that'll be years away. I do know that it's possible to replace the music, but it will mean the final product will be in stereo rather than surround sound in order to pull it off. Right now my current Dragon Ball projects are The First Chapters (which Kai-ifies OG-DB's Funi dub with various other improvements) and the Harmony Gold dub reconstruction.

[eledoremassis02]

OH! And I almost forgot. Isn't the picture quality on the Black Bricks actually worse than the season set Blu Rays, on account of the added artificial grain? (Unless you subjectively prefer that aesthetic)?

The grain probably isn't a big deal as long as it isn't excessive.

From what i've seen it doesnt look much worse, but at the same time, besides presenting the series in the correct aspect ratio, it looks more or less the same from the 2014 season sets. Just now in 4:3 and fake grain. The colors are still over saturated, finer linework on characters is still made muddy looking, and clouds and backgrounds still often devolve into water-color territory, the works.

TLDR, Funi dropped the dragon ball again

Also if anyone cares i'll have a new comparison coming here soon.

I actually think not zooming in helped it a bit. The DNR isn't as obvious, as my main gripe about the season blurays cropping is making the grain they tried to erase that much more evident (the edge of the clouds and backgrounds jiggle around constantly). The edges of objects and lines do fair better.

[ArmenianPepsi]

1. If you are willing to do some dirty work, fans HAVE created a complete Faulconer replacement score for Kai. See here ---> viewtopic.php?t=40195 Covers all 167 episodes

By dirty work, do you mean technically illegal? If I were to do something like this, do you know if it matters whether I have Parts 1-11 on Blu Ray, or Seasions 1-7 on Blu Ray?

I may just go with Kikuchi anyway, but being able to revisit certain moments or episodes with a different score would be nice.

EDIT: I also somehow missed that there is a Kikuchi revival! So that would be cool.

No, what I mean is that you'll have to rip your blu rays, and manually add in the new soundtrack to each episode with something like MKVToolNix

[Danfun64]

It's also worth noting that The Final Chapters ALSO had its music replaced with Sumitomo's work on BoG, RoF and Super, but similar to Kai there's not nearly enough tracks to offset it feeling repetitive.

What are you talking about? I was under the impression that The Final Chapters (and the Japanese TV version) were always composed by Sumitomo (though some episodes of the Japanese TV version had different track placement), and that Super reused TFC music (while apparently never reusing music from BoG or RoF).

[KBABZ]

It's also worth noting that The Final Chapters ALSO had its music replaced with Sumitomo's work on BoG, RoF and Super, but similar to Kai there's not nearly enough tracks to offset it feeling repetitive.

What are you talking about? I was under the impression that The Final Chapters (and the Japanese TV version) were always composed by Sumitomo (though some episodes of the Japanese TV version had different track placement), and that Super reused TFC music (while apparently never reusing music from BoG or RoF).

Looks like I was slightly mistaken; while Super had not yet come out, Battle of Gods had. Explains a thing or two!

[SuperSayainSnape]

If I want to use other soundtracks (Kikuchi, Faulconer, etc) for DBZ Kai, does it matter if I get the set as 'Parts' (parts 1-8, etc) vs getting the set as 'seasons'? (Seasons 1-4, then Final Chapters)?

[SuperSayainSnape]

Also, KUDOS for even considering replacing the Kikuchi soundtrack with the properly placed Kikuchi soundtrack.

I tried watching a few episodes, in their entirety, back to back for both the original uncut DBZ (remastered Funi/Faulconer) and DBZ Kai (Funi/Replaced Kikuchi) and I found myself really enjoying Kai a lot. All of my concerns (cutting filler I'd actually miss, pace being too fast, etc) went right out the window. Combined with the new script, new performances, new music, seriously different pacing - it was a very welcome fresh take on the show.

I feel like I just need to own both (uncut DBZ and DBZ Kai). But Kai is great stuff.

[BluezaBladeNZ]

Don't have any comparing all but did make this one against the JPN Dragon Box when I was looking at the Buu era episodes. It is a shame the Dragon Box fell in quality (for me) during most of the Buu episodes. Strong green tint and overblown highlights, where I actually preferred the look of the 30th BD set here funny enough (outside the "remastering" they did): http://www.framecompare.com/image-compa ... n/992C1NNU

[kyppk]

Don't have any comparing all but did make this one against the JPN Dragon Box when I was looking at the Buu era episodes. It is a shame the Dragon Box fell in quality (for me) during most of the Buu episodes. Strong green tint and overblown highlights, where I actually preferred the look of the 30th BD set here funny enough (outside the "remastering" they did): http://www.framecompare.com/image-compa ... n/992C1NNU

Yeah, despite all the deserved hell we give the 30th, there are some scenes and frames that do look better than previous releases.