What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[Matches Malone]

No one at Toei is as creative as Toriyama.

the two movies after BOG was a success and Super was a success.

Toyotaro is failing now.

Nothing in this franchise is less creative than Minus and RF, both of which came from Toriyama. Broly was just 3 older stories (by Toei, who aren't "creative")connected into one. 2 of Super's 3 original arcs were just tournaments, and boring ones at that.

The transformers movies are also financially successful, that doesn't make them creative.

In what regard ? his tracing has been an issue, but it's one that's improved over time. His current Moro arc is by far the best thing this revival has done since 2013's BOG. I don't know if you're aware of this, but everything Toyotaro does goes through Toriyama first, so if he's a failure, then so should Toriyama for approving his content. I think what you mean by "failing" is that he's simply not Toriyama, so by default anything he or others do is a failure.

[Locust]

his tracing has been an issue, but it's one that's improved over time.

I think people would be shocked at the amount of tracing in the manga industry.

I don't agree with him tracing from that Marval artist - that's not ok, because he's profiting off another artists work without permission.

But I have seen people point out that he's traced (though to me it more looks like referenced) older Dragon Ball art - I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that Toriyama gave him the ok to do it. A lot of manga artists trace their OWN older work from time to time.
When you're making manga in a fairly short time period, shortcuts are vital - it's not uncommon for mangaka to go out, take photos, and then trace over those photos to make backgrounds quickly, for example.

I'm mainly bringing this up because - it's something I see Toyotaro being critiqued about a lot. Again - the Marvel thing? Not ok. But the other stuff? More seems like some people don't understand the finer details of what goes into making a manga, and I guess I just wanted to share some info since I DO make manga for a living, and idk, I guess I can give some insight?

(Not saying you don't know, just, speaking generally)

[Matches Malone]

(Not saying you don't know, just, speaking generally)

Actually I didn't, so thanks, that's very insightful. Although I've never been vocal about it, but I've questioned how Toriyama's allowed him to trace as much as he has, so this clears that up.

[Locust]

(Not saying you don't know, just, speaking generally)

Actually I didn't, so thanks, that's very insightful. Although I've never been vocal about it, but I've questioned how Toriyama's allowed him to trace as much as he has, so this clears that up.

No prob - it's never ok to trace other artists work without permission, but your own art (or art you've been given permission to use), photos you've taken, stock photos (that are ok to use commercially) - these are all used widely in manga and are fair game

Making chapters weekly.... those guys in particular have it the toughest! All the respect to them, and they've earned the right to (ethically) use shortcuts as much as they want

[Jiren The Alpha]

In what regard ? his tracing has been an issue, but it's one that's improved over time. His current Moro arc is by far the best thing this revival has done since 2013's BOG. I don't know if you're aware of this, but everything Toyotaro does goes through Toriyama first, so if he's a failure, then so should Toriyama for approving his content. I think what you mean by "failing" is that he's simply not Toriyama, so by default anything he or others do is a failure.

I thing Toriyama likes Toyotaro personally, thats the only reason i can thing of why he just approve of everything he makes, Toyotaro is a fanfic
writer that should never work on a official product, his drawings are shit and are just copypaste and the same poses every time, his dialogues are shit and he clearly don't undestand the characters.

As i said, i thing Toriyama is too nice or he don't care(properly the later) about telling Toyotaro that he can not write Dragon Ball and just fire him, he's clearly a fish out of water.

[Locust]

As i said, i thing Toriyama is too nice or he don't care(properly the later) about telling Toyotaro that he can not write Dragon Ball and just fire him

That's not really how this works

Toriyama and Toyotaro are both under contract from Shueisha - Toyotaro is the artist, not just some random assistant that can be fired
If Toyotaro became incapacitated in some way and couldn't work, or breached his contract - then Shueisha would let him go

[Jiren The Alpha]

As i said, i thing Toriyama is too nice or he don't care(properly the later) about telling Toyotaro that he can not write Dragon Ball and just fire him

That's not really how this works

Toriyama and Toyotaro are both under contract from Shueisha - Toyotaro is the artist, not just some random assistant that can be fired
If Toyotaro became incapacitated in some way and couldn't work, or breached his contract - then Shueisha would let him go

I know, but Toriyama can still go to Shueisha and ask to fire him if he wanna to, if they said no he could just walk off (Shueisha need him more then Toyotaro), but he's either a nice guy or he don't care.

[Locust]

As i said, i thing Toriyama is too nice or he don't care(properly the later) about telling Toyotaro that he can not write Dragon Ball and just fire him

That's not really how this works

Toriyama and Toyotaro are both under contract from Shueisha - Toyotaro is the artist, not just some random assistant that can be fired
If Toyotaro became incapacitated in some way and couldn't work, or breached his contract - then Shueisha would let him go

I know, Toriyama can still go to Shueisha and ask to fire him if he wanna to, if they said no he could just walk off (Shueisha need him more then Toyotaro), but he's either a nice guy or he don't care.

No, he can't. This isn't how the manga industry or contracts work.

[Jiren The Alpha]

No, he can't. This isn't how the manga industry or contracts work.

What happens if he said he don't wanna work with Toyotaro?

[Locust]

No, he can't. This isn't how the manga industry or contracts work.

What happens if he said he don't wanna work with Toyotaro?

So, I obviously don't know what kind of contract he and Toyotaro specifically signed, but being in this industry - I can have some of an idea of what it might have been like
Likely Toriyama would simply be told to "work it out" - to be frank, unless there is major issues (and I mean REALLY major issues) - manga magazine publishers are quite stubborn - that's how the industry is, it's quite brutal in a lot of ways

Consider this - if Toyotaro is fired, Toriyama would need to find an artist that can imitate the DB style, that can ALSO draw manga, and quickly get them up to date with everything that is going on: what is happening in the manga, what is going to happen later in the manga, etc etc - it's a lot of details to put on a new artist
And this is all while keeping up with the agreed publishing schedule, in keeping with most manga contracts which state essentially "you must complete promised work"

I don't think Toriyama wants to - or perhaps even CAN, he is getting up there in years, and creating manga is stamina draining, I don't know what his health is like - draw manga like this anymore

It's just not going to happen, manga magazines really, really do not like delays or hiatuses - even when artists NEED to take hiatuses for their health, a lot of publications are very grudging of letting them do it

[JulieYBM]

I remember in Bakuman. How the second editor that the main characters worked with was a really stubborn guy who basically forced them to draw gag comics. If that's just a soft-ball representation I'd hate to see how it is in real life.

[Locust]

I remember in Bakuman. How the second editor that the main characters worked with was a really stubborn guy who basically forced them to draw gag comics. If that's just a soft-ball representation I'd hate to see how it is in real life.

I keep meaning to read that manga at some point

There's quite a bit of truth to this - it'll of course vary with the individual editor/publication, but editors have a fair bit of power
They can tell you to add things, take things out, redraw something, rewrite something, etc etc ...

When you start publishing a manga within a magazine, in many ways, it's no longer just your creation - you're not always fully in control
That's the exchange you make when you get your work published like this

[JulieYBM]

Oof, it's pretty BS. We need worker-owned magazines.

[Locust]

I don't want to seem like I'm throwing all editors under the bus, so I'll quickly add - there's a lot of very talented editors, who's input into manga have only improved them, and that while they may ask for changes, it's all ultimately for the benefit of the original creator

[LoganForkHands73]

Oof, it's pretty BS. We need worker-owned magazines.

Fanzines/doujinshi got ya covered.

[JulieYBM]

Oof, it's pretty BS. We need worker-owned magazines.

Fanzines/doujinshi.

I'm aware, but the system is still structured to the advantage of corporate-controlled workplaces. Those need to be crushed and converted to being worker-owned and democratically operated so that workers aren't thrown into working conditions that they have no say over.

[LoganForkHands73]

Oof, it's pretty BS. We need worker-owned magazines.

Fanzines/doujinshi.

I'm aware, but the system is still structured to the advantage of corporate-controlled workplaces. Those need to be crushed and converted to being worker-owned and democratically operated so that workers aren't thrown into working conditions that they have no say over.

I'm not gonna go all "praise the company", it can certainly be a really shitty system, but there are some advantages to having editors, deadlines, etc. Dragon Ball, Boku no Hero, Kuroko, none of them wouldn't exist in any form without corporate interest and financial incentive. Apologies for playing that card but unfortunately, Toriyama didn't create Dr. Slump or Dragon Ball out of a deep artistic passion, he did it to pay the bills. And we're all still here paying them for him.

The only way the current structures will fall is if everyone simultaneously ceases supporting them. But no one's willing to do that as long as product keeps getting delivered.

[Locust]

Fanzines/doujinshi.

I'm aware, but the system is still structured to the advantage of corporate-controlled workplaces. Those need to be crushed and converted to being worker-owned and democratically operated so that workers aren't thrown into working conditions that they have no say over.

I'm not gonna go all "praise the company", it can certainly be a really shitty system, but there are some advantages to having editors, deadlines, etc. Dragon Ball, Boku no Hero, Kuroko, none of them wouldn't exist in any form without corporate interest and financial incentive. Apologies for playing that card but unfortunately, Toriyama didn't create Dr. Slump or Dragon Ball out of a deep artistic passion, he did it to pay the bills. And we're all still here paying them for him.

Editors, deadlines and all that, I don't really have an issue in theory, just how the industry is run ain't the best

This is pretty old, but a schedule of a weekly mangaka


I will note that not every mangaka can even afford to hire an assistant

I'd like more unionization really, because the anime industry is just as bad, no one should be worked to death because they love making manga
I just love manga so much and I love drawing it but I do worry about my long term health prospects sometimes

[JulieYBM]

Fanzines/doujinshi.

I'm aware, but the system is still structured to the advantage of corporate-controlled workplaces. Those need to be crushed and converted to being worker-owned and democratically operated so that workers aren't thrown into working conditions that they have no say over.

I'm not gonna go all "praise the company", it can certainly be a really shitty system, but there are some advantages to having editors, deadlines, etc. Dragon Ball, Boku no Hero, Kuroko, none of them wouldn't exist in any form without corporate interest and financial incentive. Apologies for playing that card but unfortunately, Toriyama didn't create Dr. Slump or Dragon Ball out of a deep artistic passion, he did it to pay the bills. And we're all still here paying them for him.

The only way the current structures will fall is if everyone simultaneously ceases supporting them. But no one's willing to do that as long as product keeps getting delivered.

None of those are worth the authors' health and lack of power, though.

Better things are possible.

[LoganForkHands73]

I'm aware, but the system is still structured to the advantage of corporate-controlled workplaces. Those need to be crushed and converted to being worker-owned and democratically operated so that workers aren't thrown into working conditions that they have no say over.

I'm not gonna go all "praise the company", it can certainly be a really shitty system, but there are some advantages to having editors, deadlines, etc. Dragon Ball, Boku no Hero, Kuroko, none of them wouldn't exist in any form without corporate interest and financial incentive. Apologies for playing that card but unfortunately, Toriyama didn't create Dr. Slump or Dragon Ball out of a deep artistic passion, he did it to pay the bills. And we're all still here paying them for him.

The only way the current structures will fall is if everyone simultaneously ceases supporting them. But no one's willing to do that as long as product keeps getting delivered.

None of those are worth the authors' health and lack of power, though.

Better things are possible.

Indeed. The workplace culture of Japan has to change -- change everywhere would probably be nice, but in my country the culture is luckily far more lax. Karoshi/workplace death absolutely has to be made a thing of the past.

I second Locust's idea for more unionisation. It could be a good place to start.