Unpopular DB opinions

[Planetnamek]

I feel like the problem with Z's ending is that it feels very arbitrary. I get what it's going for with Goku finding his successor and training him, but the way it's done there's not really any finality to it. Goku's not retiring from fighting, he's not going somewhere far away, we know exactly what he's gonna be doing for the next few years. It feels like it's setting up a time skip instead of the beginning of a new, different journey.

Compare that to GT, where Goku literally leaves the living realm; his adventures are over, because everything that comes afterwards will be fundamentally different, it's beyond the reach of the story being told and so the show must end.

It suffers too much from the trope Status Quo is God, it feels like Goku didn't really develop much at the end, if I saw that ending as a kid and then nothing next week i'd just be horribly confused. It has similar problems as the Teen Titans finale "Things Change", it isn't nearly as bad, but leaves me with a similarly empty and unsatisfied feeling.

But it’s not even close to “Status Quo is God” Goku is a grandfather, his two sons are grown, his friends are all pretty much settled down, even his most prominent rival is now settled and content as a family man. He’s left to train his handpicked successor.

I haven’t seen Teen Titans finale since it aired (2006?) but from what I recall the entire message of the episode was to let go of the past and move on (which ironically from what I’ve seen the fandom went the exact opposite direction) it was an episode about looking through nostalgia glasses (remember when you were happy with us? Even though you were a spy the entire time you were on the team and I’m having selective memory and only remembering the good) and realizing that things weren’t always as great as we remembered and its time to let go

Abed’s example with Angel is a good one because it ends at the start or a big battle but you know what? It doesn’t matter what the outcome was.

Conversely Buffy had a more definitive ending and I always found the ending to be sub par.

This video perfectly sums up why "Things Change" is so bad:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK6OQr8iU8Q

[MasenkoHA]

I can’t stand Mr.Enter so I’m not even going to bother watching it.

[Scsigs]

I was thinking to ask when someone would bring up that that video's by Mr. Enter, then say they don't care for him.

[Planetnamek]

I can’t stand Mr.Enter so I’m not even going to bother watching it.

Any particular reason why? If it's because of his early videos, he's changed a lot since then.

[Scsigs]

I can’t stand Mr.Enter so I’m not even going to bother watching it.

Any particular reason why? If it's because of his early videos, he's changed a lot since then.

To explain how he's changed, he's stopped getting more overtly angry, has a few editors, tells his audience not to go after writers of a bad thing, & other things. He took a LOT of criticisms to heart & changed for the better.

[Planetnamek]

I can’t stand Mr.Enter so I’m not even going to bother watching it.

Any particular reason why? If it's because of his early videos, he's changed a lot since then.

To explain how he's changed, he's stopped getting more overtly angry, has a few editors, tells his audience not to go after writers of a bad thing, & other things. He took a LOT of criticisms to heart & changed for the better.

Right, he also took down almost all of his journal entries on Deviant Art(some of which said some ignorant stuff)and took down some of his original videos.

[TheGodfather93]

I didn't like either the manga or GT endings.

The manga ending I didn't like because I hated seeing Goku just abandon his granddaughter like that.

The GT ending I didn't like because it was so vague and made little sense, and also consisted of Goku abandoning everyone yet again.

Goku's recklessness, battle junkie nature and willingness to leave his friends and family to go off and fight strong opponents, is the main reason I dislike him as a character. I think he's a shit parent, and an even shittier husband. I get that it's part of Saiyan nature to prioritise fighting over everything else, but Vegeta, the literal prince of the Saiyans, evolved enough as a character to put his family first. Even Super showed that, when he initially refused to fight in a tournament consisting of the strongest fighters across the multiverse, just so he could be with his pregnant wife.

In my ideal ending, after reaching an exceedingly high level of strength, Goku would try to get even stronger, only to eventually realise that if he keeps going down this path, there will be no end to it. After an introspective man vs self conflict that I admit would feel completely out of place in this series, he'd eventually decide to retire from fighting, and dedicate the rest of his life to being a good father, husband and grandfather. He'd still train casually of course, but there'd be no more gallivanting around the universe, actively seeking out strong opponents.

[Planetnamek]

I didn't like either the manga or GT endings.

The manga ending I didn't like because I hated seeing Goku just abandon his granddaughter like that.

The GT ending I didn't like because it was so vague and made little sense, and also consisted of Goku abandoning everyone yet again.

Goku's recklessness, battle junkie nature and willingness to leave his friends and family to go off and fight strong opponents, is the main reason I dislike him as a character. I think he's a shit parent, and an even shittier husband. I get that it's part of Saiyan nature to prioritise fighting over everything else, but Vegeta, the literal prince of the Saiyans, evolved enough as a character to put his family first. Even Super showed that, when he initially refused to fight in a tournament consisting of the strongest fighters across the multiverse, just so he could be with his pregnant wife.

In my ideal ending, after reaching an exceedingly high level of strength, Goku would try to get even stronger, only to eventually realise that if he keeps going down this path, there will be no end to it. After an introspective man vs self conflict that I admit would feel completely out of place in this series, he'd eventually decide to retire from fighting, and dedicate the rest of his life to being a good father, husband and grandfather. He'd still train casually of course, but there'd be no more gallivanting around the universe, actively seeking out strong opponents.

Exactly, that's another reason why the ending to DBZ rang so false to me, if Vegeta could develop as a character why couldn't Goku? At that point him going off to fight again just felt lazy.

[MasenkoHA]

SNIP

I think the difference between Goku and Vegeta is Goku genuinely loves fighting and improving himself and a lot of that has to do more with his grandpa raising him than his Saiyan heritage. For Vegeta it’s a pride thing. We have no indication that before Goku he had any desire to be stronger or better himself and he simply assumed his superiority of strength as a “Saiyan Elite”’ it was his failure on earth and then Goku, a low class warrior, surpassing him by becoming a Super Saiyan that drove Vegeta to train harder . Once Vegeta FINALLY let go of his pride he was content to settle down as a husband and father.

And as poorly (non-existent really) as the courtship was written Vegeta genuinely loves Bulma. Goku really doesn’t care all that much about Chi Chi and married her because of a promise he didn’t understand. And I don’t think it makes Goku a bad person to not feel any romantic love for a woman he married because he agreed to what he thought was food when he was 12


Also, I’d argue the mere fact Goku tried to make Gohan his successor and then tried with Goten and Trunks and then settled on Oob indicates he knows he’s not going to be around forever.

[Grimlock]

I didn't like either the manga or GT endings.

What do you think of Dragon Ball Online ending?

[MyVisionity]

Angel ending feels abrupt because it got cancelled when it was really only just getting started. Cordelia had a great farewell episode which was nice considering how she was written out of the series in Season Four. I agree though that the theme of the series was reflected well by the finale and was a fitting ending. Buffy ending feels sub par because not only was there room to grow if SMG had not quit, but also because the final episode could not escape the shit writing that had plagued that entire season.

DBZ ending is fitting but does kind of feel like "that's it?". But it works and I enjoy it. GT has a very strong ending but I can't say that I enjoy it outside of the context of GT. If the Z-ending porridge is too cold then the GT-ending porridge is too hot.

[Planetnamek]

Angel ending feels abrupt because it got cancelled when it was really only just getting started. Cordelia had a great farewell episode which was nice considering how she was written out of the series in Season Four. I agree though that the theme of the series was reflected well by the finale and was a fitting ending. Buffy ending feels sub par because not only was there room to grow if SMG had not quit, but also because the final episode could not escape the shit writing that had plagued that entire season.

DBZ ending is fitting but does kind of feel like "that's it?". But it works and I enjoy it. GT has a very strong ending but I can't say that I enjoy it outside of the context of GT. If the Z-ending porridge is too cold then the GT-ending porridge is too hot.

Wasn't aware that SMG quit the show. Interesting.

[ABED]

Buffy was 7 seasons in. Most shows only have 5 or 6 good seasons in them. It was NOT just getting started. Buffy was about growing into adulthood. Her story had reached its end and everyone was burned out. The nickname of the show in Hollywood was Buffy the Weekend Killer because it had a notoriously grueling schedule. I like the ending because it's thematically relevant to her journey. She felt trapped by her destiny and for the first time she sees a future. She has hope. What that is we don't know and it doesn't matter.

It's like when people talk about DB like there's something more. It was a decade old at the end of its run. It had already peaked and then reached a very natural conclusion.

I can see why DB's ending doesn't quite work for some. I've grown to appreciate it more over the years but still don't love it. I think ending it with Goku winning the 23rd TB is the most powerful ending. Maybe the ending of BoG because it makes the same point as Z's ending but the story is better. Goku has more places to explore and opponents to face who are far stronger than he thought possible. Some will say it is setting up a multiverse and weak sauce that we don't see it explored but I disagree. Hinting at a future is a great way to end a story. I love endings that essentially say "the characters will go on, we may not see their adventures but we know they'll be okay."

[MyVisionity]

Buffy was 7 seasons in. Most shows only have 5 or 6 good seasons in them. It was NOT just getting started. Buffy was about growing into adulthood. Her story had reached its end and everyone was burned out. The nickname of the show in Hollywood was Buffy the Weekend Killer because it had a notoriously grueling schedule. I like the ending because it's thematically relevant to her journey. She felt trapped by her destiny and for the first time she sees a future. She has hope. What that is we don't know and it doesn't matter.

It's like when people talk about DB like there's something more. It was a decade old at the end of its run. It had already peaked and then reached a very natural conclusion.

I can see why DB's ending doesn't quite work for some. I've grown to appreciate it more over the years but still don't love it. I think ending it with Goku winning the 23rd TB is the most powerful ending. Maybe the ending of BoG because it makes the same point as Z's ending but the story is better. Goku has more places to explore and opponents to face who are far stronger than he thought possible. Some will say it is setting up a multiverse and weak sauce that we don't see it explored but I disagree. Hinting at a future is a great way to end a story. I love endings that essentially say "the characters will go on, we may not see their adventures but we know they'll be okay."

I said that Angel was just getting started, not Buffy. However, seven seasons doesn't necessarily mean that it's time to quit. Buffy was still growing into adulthood, and there were plenty of places for the plot and characters to go. Maybe a big shakeup in the writers room would have done the trick, or a new showrunner. I don't know.

I'm not sure if there even is such a thing as "peaking" and "natural conclusions" in television. Maybe more like "peaks and valleys". Manga/anime on the other hand is a different story.

I agree that the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai might be the better conclusion. It definitely feels like the most natural ending point of the series.

[ABED]

Angel was also at the tail end of its run. 5 seasons is a great run. I'm sure there are places to take Buffy and Angel but well over 100 episodes for each series explored a lot and they learned enough lessons along the way. Neither story was just getting started. Both shows had changes in showrunner. Noxon took over for Joss at some point and David Greewalt left Angel sometime around season 3. Five to seven seasons is a lot, especially for network TV. It gives enough time to explore the world and the characters but not so long that it gets stale.

I don't know why you think there is some fundamental difference between the two mediums that precludes one from having peaks or a natural conclusion.I think every story has a natural end but it's not immediately obvious. Stories end when the characters reach some goal (in OTH it was the characters achieving the goals they set out for since the beginning) or learn some lesson they need to learn (in Cheers it was Sam figuring out who or what was the love of his life). If there isn't some grand lesson or goal, then the ending is likely something that thematically ties it up like in the case of DB. Going past that point is anticlimactic and feels like the story is spinning its wheels.

DB's peak was around the Saiyan arc. That was when Toriyama was at his best in terms of being both a graphic artist and a storyteller.

[Matches Malone]

The ending to the manga certainly lacks the feeling of finality that the ending for GT has. That much can be said. It’s a very “and the adventure continues” kind of ending, while GT’s ending feels more like an actual farewell.

The biggest issue I have with EOZ is that it didn't feel like an ending, but rather the beginning of a story that never got published. GT, despite its flaws, nailed the ending completely. Both endings happened after time skips, both had a next gen vibe, both had an "the adventures continue" vibe, and both had Goku leaving to "train", but what happened before is why GT's succeeded, while EOZ failed.

After the fight with the dragons, the dragon balls were taken away, and Goku went around saying goodbye to everyone, before he himself was also taken by the dragon. After the fight with Buu however, Goku just returns to his family and things are presented as if there's more to see, only there isn't. When it comes to Goku leaving, both endings have it, but in EOZ it's so out of nowhere and for no reason, unlike in GT.

[MasenkoHA]

I said that Angel was just getting started, not Buffy.

5 seasons and 110 episodes is not “just getting started” like....what?

I’m glad Angel ended when it did. Season 5 was far and away my favorite best to end on a high note

However, seven seasons doesn't necessarily mean that it's time to quit. Buffy was still growing into adulthood, and there were plenty of places for the plot and characters to go. Maybe a big shakeup in the writers room would have done the trick, or a new showrunner. I don't know.

Most shows have a good 3-5 year run. Buffy’s 7th season was thoroughly mediocre and it was good that it ended then. I can think of quite a few shows were descent to mediocrity precedes unwatchability (Xena, Orange is the new Black, Community, and Family Guy come to mind)

I'm not sure if there even is such a thing as "peaking" and "natural conclusions" in television. Maybe more like "peaks and valleys".

There definitely is it’s just a lot of shows don’ know when to quit.

[Planetnamek]

The ending to the manga certainly lacks the feeling of finality that the ending for GT has. That much can be said. It’s a very “and the adventure continues” kind of ending, while GT’s ending feels more like an actual farewell.

The biggest issue I have with EOZ is that it didn't feel like an ending, but rather the beginning of a story that never got published. GT, despite its flaws, nailed the ending completely. Both endings happened after time skips, both had a next gen vibe, both had an "the adventures continue" vibe, and both had Goku leaving to "train", but what happened before is why GT's succeeded, while EOZ failed.

After the fight with the dragons, the dragon balls were taken away, and Goku went around saying goodbye to everyone, before he himself was also taken by the dragon. After the fight with Buu however, Goku just returns to his family and things are presented as if there's more to see, only there isn't. When it comes to Goku leaving, both endings have it, but in EOZ it's so out of nowhere and for no reason, unlike in GT.

Exactly, they present it as though Goku is actually finally getting some much needed character development and maturing, only to suddenly pull the rug out and go "haha fooled ya!" I felt like i'd been tricked.

[ABED]

The biggest issue I have with EOZ is that it didn't feel like an ending, but rather the beginning of a story that never got published.

It's the whole "the characters go onto the next chapter of their life". I never got the sense that there was more to see. He's going off excited for the future. We don't need to see it because we know he's fine. It's not out of nowhere. For a character who is always looking for a new challenge, the reincarnation of the strongest being in the universe is quite the mountain to climb.

And if he reaches maturity what better time is there to end the book? He finally learned the lessons he needed to, time to say goodbye. After 42 volumes, 500+ chapters, and nearly 450 episodes, there's nothing sudden.

[Matches Malone]

It's the whole "the characters go onto the next chapter of their life". I never got the sense that there was more to see. After 42 volumes, 500+ chapters, and nearly 450 episodes, there's nothing sudden.

I'm not saying this was intended, but to me, it came off as the beginning of something that never saw the light of day, despite not being intended as such. GT's ending, despite more or less following the same ideas, didn't have this issue.