When all is said and done, who was stronger: Super Perfect Cell or SSJ2 Gohan?

[Kaboom]

Could it be that Gohan's hesitation and the loss of his confidence prompted the decrease? Mindset and fortitude are described as being aspects of ki according to one Toriyama interview iirc.

Yeah, I'd definitely say that's a big part of it. Ki is just as much of a mental power as it is physical. While I'm sure Gohan's injury really was holding him back to some degree, his defeatist mindset was also just as responsible. But through effort and determination, he managed to make up for the injury and momentarily regain his full power when it mattered.

[Incarnate]

Nothing at all states Gohan healed and got all of his chi back. All he did was use all of the remaining power he had left.

[Hugo Boss]

If Gohan was that much stronger than Cell, as you are implying, he wouldn’t be hurt to that degree in the first place. It’s just not difficult to tell that he managed to use his absolute best in that fight, not the best he thought he could do.

[Ash57]

No, it is confirmed by multiple guidebooks that Gohan's injury did cut his power in half; Goku's encouragement simply allowed him to draw forth some of his dormant anger-power with the final Kamehameha burst. The Daizenshuu 2 confirms this:

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

In the anime, at least four statements are made cementing Cell's superiority over an uninjured Gohan:

Episode: 189
Context: After Cell returns to Earth and kills Trunks
Mr. Popo: Kami-sama, is there something wrong?
Dende: C-Cell came back to life. . . .What's more, he's greatly powered up compared to before. This time, even Son Gohan might not be able to manage anything.

Episode: 190
Context: Shortly after Cell breaks his arm
Gohan: It's no use! I can't win. Cell's power is too tremendous . . . Father, I'm sorry. I couldn't defend the Earth against Cell...

Episode: 190
Context: After Cell powers-up and starts charging his Kamehameha
Dende: Wh-what an incredible power..I've never felt a power like this before.
Mr. Popo: Cell...

Episode: 191
Context: After Gohan is slightly encouraged by Goku and injects more power into his Kamehameha
Krillin: Gohan's power is incredible...
Cell: Miserable fool...I have attained the ultimate, perfect body. I won't be beaten by this level of power! *powers-up and pushes Gohan's burst back*
Goku: Wh-what?!
Gohan: It can't be!

When Gohan and Cell clash for the first time, Dende affirms that Cell is easily overpowering him and also that Gohan can't measure up:

Episode: 191
Context: Immediately after the Kamehameha clash
Dende: Cell is completely overpowering him!...Not even Gohan can stand up against Cell's power, after all. This is the end of the Earth!

The actual feats suggest Cell's superiority, with Cell managing to lethally damage Gohan with a single, easily-fired ki blast; despite the fact Gohan was fully on-guard, looking straight at the blast and with his aura-up, flying towards Vegeta at full-power in order to try and save him. To make things worse for Gohan, Cell wasn't serious with that attack:

Context: After breaking Gohan's arm
Cell: "Hmm...I suppose that was a nice bonus. But enough fooling around with you all. I've let this drag on for too long."

In other words, a nonchalant Cell managed to do lethal damage to Gohan. Simply put, there is no conclusive evidence Gohan was superior to Cell. All statements that can be interpreted like that can be explained away:

* Characters in the Boo Arc mostly hold Gohan's rage-boosted power in high regard, and not his standard power.

* Goku believes Gohan can win, but only by drawing out his dormant power:

Goku: “Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!”

[LoganForkHands73]

No, it is confirmed by multiple guidebooks that Gohan's injury did cut his power in half; Goku's encouragement simply allowed him to draw forth some of his dormant anger-power with the final Kamehameha burst. The Daizenshuu 2 confirms this:

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

In the anime, at least four statements are made cementing Cell's superiority over an uninjured Gohan:

Episode: 189
Context: After Cell returns to Earth and kills Trunks
Mr. Popo: Kami-sama, is there something wrong?
Dende: C-Cell came back to life. . . .What's more, he's greatly powered up compared to before. This time, even Son Gohan might not be able to manage anything.

Episode: 190
Context: Shortly after Cell breaks his arm
Gohan: It's no use! I can't win. Cell's power is too tremendous . . . Father, I'm sorry. I couldn't defend the Earth against Cell...

Episode: 190
Context: After Cell powers-up and starts charging his Kamehameha
Dende: Wh-what an incredible power..I've never felt a power like this before.
Mr. Popo: Cell...

Episode: 191
Context: After Gohan is slightly encouraged by Goku and injects more power into his Kamehameha
Krillin: Gohan's power is incredible...
Cell: Miserable fool...I have attained the ultimate, perfect body. I won't be beaten by this level of power! *powers-up and pushes Gohan's burst back*
Goku: Wh-what?!
Gohan: It can't be!

When Gohan and Cell clash for the first time, Dende affirms that Cell is easily overpowering him and also that Gohan can't measure up:

Episode: 191
Context: Immediately after the Kamehameha clash
Dende: Cell is completely overpowering him!...Not even Gohan can stand up against Cell's power, after all. This is the end of the Earth!

The actual feats suggest Cell's superiority, with Cell managing to lethally damage Gohan with a single, easily-fired ki blast; despite the fact Gohan was fully on-guard, looking straight at the blast and with his aura-up, flying towards Vegeta at full-power in order to try and save him, despite the fact Cell wasn't serious with that attack:

Context: After breaking Gohan's arm
Cell: "Hmm...I suppose that was a nice bonus. But enough fooling around with you all. I've let this drag on for too long."

Beyond the fact that they're mostly filler guff, none of those anime quotes are conclusive, definitive statements that point to Cell's superiority either. Cell boasting about his own power and Gohan doubting himself don't count, since that's just their characterisations. Dende says nothing conclusive aside from typical fluffy filler statements. Lastly, most of these quotes are made after Gohan is already injured, i.e. when he lost half of his ki.

You can cherrypick many quotes that support the opposite conclusion. Goku saying Gohan is currently the strongest in the universe, even with his injury, being the most memorable one.

Vegeta's distraction attack was exactly like the Millennium Falcon swooping in to blast Vader's TIE squadron in A New Hope. Narratively, it's a supporting character giving the protagonist an opening, but ultimately our hero Gohan is the only one that can defeat Cell, in the same way that Luke was the only one that could destroy the Death Star in that instant. It doesn't devalue Gohan's feat of strength. Cell was of course incredibly strong - in Gohan's injured state, their stalemate could have gone on a lot longer but I think it's fairly clear that Gohan would have eventually won with or without Vegeta's help. Vegeta just hurried it along.

Simply put, there is no conclusive evidence Gohan was superior to Cell.

Well, Gohan defeated him, so there's that. And not just defeated, completely obliterated to the point where not even Cell could regenerate. I don't think there's a better piece of evidence than that.

[Matches Malone]

According to Gohan himself before the beam struggle, he had less than half his strength due to saving Vegeta, yet he still managed to kill Cell. This shows that Gohan was not only far stronger, but that Ssj2 as a form was in a completely different league than anything that came before.

[Ash57]

Beyond the fact that they're mostly filler guff, none of those anime quotes are conclusive, definitive statements that point to Cell's superiority either. Cell boasting about his own power and Gohan doubting himself don't count, since that's just their characterisations. Dende says nothing conclusive aside from typical fluffy filler statements. Lastly, most of these quotes are made after Gohan is already injured, i.e. when he lost half of his ki.

I. The fact they're filler is irrelevant; the original author has made multiple comments suggesting that, as long as there is no contradiction with the source material, the extra content in the anime can be taken into consideration, seeing as it gives greater insight into the series:

Spoiler:

And so Dragon Ball had become very popular.

It was even adapted for anime, which for me was cause for great joy. I must give many thanks to the entire team who contributed to its creation and who have done such an excellent job despite the difficulties that they must have come across.

Of course, those who have read Dragon Ball have noticed that certain stories that are found in the anime didn't exist in the manga. As one adventure in the manga corresponds to about 10 minutes of animation, and since one episode comprises on average 30 minutes, the entire series of Dragon Ball would have passed by very quickly. The team of animators therefore had to insert some original stories. I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!

Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga!

Spoiler:

Everyone on the staff, who is more knowledgeable about Dragon Ball than a guy like me, and who love it very much, obsessed over [reproducing] the atmosphere of the original comic.

II. The claim that Dende says nothing conclusive is blatantly false. Right off the bat, as soon as Cell arrives all powered-up, Dende asserts that the power he is sensing is so huge that even Gohan would likely be unable to manage anything at all; and then, when Cell powers-up in order to wipe out the Z-Senshi, he affirms that he had never felt a ki that huge -- despite the fact both he and Mr. Popo sensed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's full-power and his Kamehameha against regular Perfect Cell. Both of those statements are conclusive and already provide more evidence than anything the Gohan side of the debate has to bring to bear.

III. Cell doesn't boast about anything. He says he can't be beaten by the level of power Gohan was outputting and he is proven right when his power-up pushes Gohan's back. Every single one of the quotes I posted is referring to Gohan's uninjured full-power.

You can cherrypick many quotes that support the opposite conclusion. Goku saying Gohan is currently the strongest in the universe, even with his injury, being the most memorable one.

There is not a single quote in either the anime or the manga that conclusively supports uninjured Gohan being stronger than Cell. The opposite isn't true. Goku's statements have already been clarified through guidebooks; he is referring to Gohan's dormant anger powers, and not to the current level of power Gohan's putting out.

Cell was of course incredibly strong - in Gohan's injured state, their stalemate could have gone on a lot longer but I think it's fairly clear that Gohan would have eventually won with or without Vegeta's help. Vegeta just hurried it along.

Gohan was mere seconds away from getting wiped out. There's nothing to doubt when it comes to that. Vegeta's distraction saved his life and provided an opportunity for him to draw out his dormant power -- without it, he would have been killed. This much is a fact.

Well, Gohan defeated him, so there's that. And not just defeated, completely obliterated to the point where not even Cell could regenerate. I don't think there's a better piece of evidence than that.

While Cell was off-guard and after receiving a boost in power through rage, yes. Not under his normal power.

[Koitsukai]

-Cell got distracted for a second by a depleted (base?) Vegeta throwing him a blast that did nothing but call his attention.

-Gohan was "distracted" for the entirety of the fight by losing an arm to Super Perfect Cell and being pessimistic while talking to the dead.

And Gohan still won.

[LoganForkHands73]

Beyond the fact that they're mostly filler guff, none of those anime quotes are conclusive, definitive statements that point to Cell's superiority either. Cell boasting about his own power and Gohan doubting himself don't count, since that's just their characterisations. Dende says nothing conclusive aside from typical fluffy filler statements. Lastly, most of these quotes are made after Gohan is already injured, i.e. when he lost half of his ki.

I. The fact they're filler is irrelevant; the original author has made multiple comments suggesting that, as long as there is no contradiction with the source material, the extra content in the anime can be taken into consideration, seeing as it gives greater insight into the series:

Spoiler:

And so Dragon Ball had become very popular.

It was even adapted for anime, which for me was cause for great joy. I must give many thanks to the entire team who contributed to its creation and who have done such an excellent job despite the difficulties that they must have come across.

Of course, those who have read Dragon Ball have noticed that certain stories that are found in the anime didn't exist in the manga. As one adventure in the manga corresponds to about 10 minutes of animation, and since one episode comprises on average 30 minutes, the entire series of Dragon Ball would have passed by very quickly. The team of animators therefore had to insert some original stories. I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!

Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga!

Spoiler:

Everyone on the staff, who is more knowledgeable about Dragon Ball than a guy like me, and who love it very much, obsessed over [reproducing] the atmosphere of the original comic.

II. The claim that Dende says nothing conclusive is blatantly false. Right off the bat, as soon as Cell arrives all powered-up, Dende asserts that the power he is sensing is so huge that even Gohan would likely be unable to manage anything at all; and then, when Cell powers-up in order to wipe out the Z-Senshi, he affirms that he had never felt a ki that huge -- despite the fact both he and Mr. Popo sensed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's full-power and his Kamehameha against regular Perfect Cell. Both of those statements are conclusive and already provide more evidence than anything the Gohan side of the debate has to bring to bear.

III. Cell doesn't boast about anything. He says he can't be beaten by the level of power Gohan was outputting and he is proven right when his power-up pushes Gohan's back. Every single one of the quotes I posted is referring to Gohan's uninjured full-power.

You can cherrypick many quotes that support the opposite conclusion. Goku saying Gohan is currently the strongest in the universe, even with his injury, being the most memorable one.

There is not a single quote in either the anime or the manga that conclusively supports uninjured Gohan being stronger than Cell. The opposite isn't true. Goku's statements have already been clarified through guidebooks; he is referring to Gohan's dormant anger powers, and not to the current level of power Gohan's putting out.

Cell was of course incredibly strong - in Gohan's injured state, their stalemate could have gone on a lot longer but I think it's fairly clear that Gohan would have eventually won with or without Vegeta's help. Vegeta just hurried it along.

Gohan was mere seconds away from getting wiped out. There's nothing to doubt when it comes to that. Vegeta's distraction saved his life and provided an opportunity for him to draw out his dormant power -- without it, he would have been killed. This much is a fact.

Well, Gohan defeated him, so there's that. And not just defeated, completely obliterated to the point where not even Cell could regenerate. I don't think there's a better piece of evidence than that.

While Cell was off-guard and after receiving a boost in power through rage, yes. Not under his normal power.

Well, take anime stuff as you want it, but there's no point in trying to force its events onto the original manga story where it doesn't occur. The anime adds most of this stuff to artificially ramp up the doubt and drama, as it always does. Regardless, that quote from Toriyama about pacing differences between manga and anime is quite telling. In a comic, you can pace things at whatever rate you want, but Toriyama decided to keep Gohan and Cell's Kamehameha clash in one chapter for a reason. The anime didn't need to drag it out for like four or five episodes, but it did so to save money and make things easier on the animators. In filler, characters gawp and say generic phrases like "Incredible!"/"I've never felt a power like this before!"/"It's the end of the Earth!"/"I hardly even recognise your power!" all the damn time, they hardly mean anything anymore.

In that Dende quote you listed, he says, and I quote, "Even Son Gohan might not be able to manage anything." That is not a substantial, definitive statement. All of the ones you listed except for that one are in fact taken from after Gohan's injury. Anyway, my point is that the whole exchange, especially in the anime, is full of contradictory hype-fuelled quotes from different characters. Piccolo thinks Gohan's ki is too weak, meanwhile Goku has totally unwavering belief in Gohan's power, saying he can win no matter what. In both the manga and anime, Goku says this:

"Slam Cell with your strongest Kamehameha! That'll beat him for sure, I guarantee it! ... Right now, you're the strongest in the whole universe!"

There's a conclusive statement if ever I've seen one. And his assessment proves to be well-made.

Later, he says that the only reason Gohan isn't winning faster is because he's afraid of damaging the Earth and holding back, but reassures him that any damage can be fixed with the Dragon Balls. Goku convinces him to let go of more power, which just so happens to be when Vegeta blasts Cell. In the manga, Vegeta blasts Cell literally four panels after Goku says this to Gohan.

I find it completely arbitrary to draw distinctions between Gohan's "normal" power and his "rage-boosted" power, especially in this discussion since Gohan's rage doesn't play a role in his victory whatsoever. He simply sees an opening, unleashes his full power that he always had stored inside him and wins.

[Ash57]

The anime didn't need to drag it out for like four or five episodes, but it did so to artificially add more drama and tension, plus to make things easier on the animators. In filler, characters gawp and say generic phrases like "Incredible!"/"I've never felt a power like this before!"/"It's the end of the Earth!"/"I hardly even recognise your power!" all the damn time, they hardly mean anything anymore.

That assessment is driven by your opinion, and not by what is factually implied within the realm of story. When a character states that the ki they're sensing is more incredible than anything else they've sensed before, it means what it means. Of course, it's meant to make the story more dramatic -- the entirety of Dragon Ball's last big battles in every arc are dramatic, be it in the manga or in the anime. That doesn't detract from the statements made during these events. They are dramatic specifically because they are true, and supposed to evoke a sense of despair and helplessness in both the audience and the characters themselves.

In that Dende quote you listed, he says, and I quote, "Even Son Gohan might not be able to manage anything." That is not a substantial, definitive statement.

It is a definitive statement in the sense that it establishes Cell has become powerful enough to at least rival Gohan in power, if not outright surpass him -- which is exactly what the Dragon Books say on the subject.

All of the ones you listed except for that one are in fact taken from after Gohan's injury.

Every single statement I posted references Gohan's full power one way or another. When Dende establishes that Cell's power is more incredible than any other he's sensed, that includes uninjured Gohan. When Gohan himself states that he can't win because Cell has returned with power too tremendous for him to match, that includes his uninjured self.

Context: after getting hit by Cell’s attack while saving Vegeta
Gohan: “Cell’s power has gone up more than I thought…”

Anyway, my point is that the whole exchange, especially in the anime, is full of contradictory hype-fuelled quotes from different characters. Piccolo thinks Gohan's ki is too weak, meanwhile Goku has totally unwavering belief in Gohan's power, saying he can win no matter what.

There are no real contradictions between the statements. I have watched all four episodes of the exchange multiple times -- Piccolo believes Gohan is too weak because he is at the moment, having been reduced to less than half of his power. Meanwhile, Goku believes Gohan can win, but only if he draws out his dormant power. The relevant confirmations have already been cited from the manga and the Daizenshuu. Both are correct assessments. If this is the only contradiction you can cite then it's safe to say there are none.

I find it completely arbitrary to draw distinctions between Gohan's "normal" power and his "rage-boosted" power, especially in this discussion since Gohan's rage doesn't play a role in his victory whatsoever. He simply sees an opening, unleashes his full power that he always had stored inside him and wins.

As confirmed by the guidebooks, Gohan drew extra power from anger during the last moments of the beam clash, and that's what he used to wipe out Cell. There's no arbitrary distinction.

[LoganForkHands73]

snip

No matter what these degenerate guidebooks (which you haven't actually linked to or cited directly outside of out-of-context quotes) have to say, there's nothing in the actual text that states Gohan tapped into "rage-boost" power during the beam struggle or that it in anyway affected the outcome. He was unconsciously holding back during the whole struggle until Goku convinced him not to. Even if this were all true, it's still Gohan's power, whether it's drawn from rage or not. You're admitting that Gohan was stronger one way or another.

EDIT: Apologies for rudeness in this comment, ordinarily I don't get this heated during debates especially on these sorts of topics. The strikethrough is because you did cite Daizenshuu 2 way back but I missed that, that's my bad.

[Grimlock]

I don't think we can come to that conclusion either way, because in the very moment Goku tells Gohan to go all out, Cell was distracted/not going all out. Clearly Goku took advantage of the opportunity Vegeta provided, can't factor that out of the equation. We don't know who was stronger at that very moment.

[Incarnate]

-Cell got distracted for a second by a depleted (base?) Vegeta throwing him a blast that did nothing but call his attention.

-Gohan was "distracted" for the entirety of the fight by losing an arm to Super Perfect Cell and being pessimistic while talking to the dead.

And Gohan still won.

No you don't understand Cell is definitely stronger because uh...

[Magnificent Ponta]

While I think SSj2 Gohan is still stronger than 'Super Perfect' Cell, I do find it an odd feature of the debate that no-one's accounting for the fact that our basis for comparison isn't their actual ki powers, but rather their respective ki concentrations via Kamehameha.

Given the extent to which moves like the Kamehameha can concentrate (and thereby radically increase the size of) ki, you have a situation where both characters are both concentrating power beyond their ordinary limits (in the end, Gohan explosively so). I don't think it's a safe assumption that there's a proportionately equivalent increase for each fighter's Kamehameha, either - particularly when earlier in the arc, Cell is stated by Piccolo to have an intrinsically abnormally weak Kamehameha (as it's taken from Saiyan arc Goku's cells).

While this is Perfect Cell, and he packs much more ki power behind it, it's by no means certain that the concentration 'multiplier' (for want of a better word) is the same for both fighters - Gohan could easily have a 'better' Kamehameha than Cell and yet still come off the worse, until his power explodes still futher.

So they could still be very close in their 'ordinary' powers. Just thought I'd toss that in.

[theherodjl]

My take is that Gohan & Cell were roughly the same strength. For Cell to damage Gohan like that and then for Gohan to damage him back, they'd have to be quite close for both to be possible. If Gohan had been stronger(therefore, faster) than SPC then he would've been able to not only reach Vegeta but also been able to smack Cell's blast away. The fact that Gohan could only get there in time to shield Vegeta with his own body could imply that Cell was actually stronger but the fact that Gohan killed him in the end tosses a wrench into that.
For compromise, I say that they were the same strength.

[UI Peter]

It basically depends on whether or not Super Perfect Cell is at least a 2x boost over his Perfect form or not. If it is, then SP Cell was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan.

[Cursed Lemon]

I want someone to show me any precedent in DB where Character A is stronger than Character B, but Character B completely obliterates Character A - to the molecular level - at 50% power.

Vegeta's distraction cannot possibly be enough. Gohan was grinning like a madman when Cell came back.

[Incarnate]

It basically depends on whether or not Super Perfect Cell is at least a 2x boost over his Perfect form or not. If it is, then SP Cell was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan.

According to what, your headcanon? SS2 Gohan completely fodderized Perfect Cell and sure, Super Perfect Cell is stronger than Perfect Cell, but Gohan tanked an attack meant to kill while also killing SPC with only 50% of his power, doubting himself, and one arm.

It baffles me that people unironically tell themselves SPC is stronger.

[UI Peter]

It basically depends on whether or not Super Perfect Cell is at least a 2x boost over his Perfect form or not. If it is, then SP Cell was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan.

According to what, your headcanon? SS2 Gohan completely fodderized Perfect Cell and sure, Super Perfect Cell is stronger than Perfect Cell, but Gohan tanked an attack meant to kill while also killing SPC with only 50% of his power, doubting himself, and one arm.

It baffles me that people unironically tell themselves SPC is stronger.

First off, Perfect Cell was stronger than SSJ1 Gohan. Second, SSJ2 is confirmed to be only a 2x boost over SSJ1. Third, Goku himself dismissed Gohan's claim about him losing 50% of his power after getting his arm broken. And fourth, SSJ2 Gohan was clearly losing the beam struggle with SP Cell, and it was Vegeta's assist that gave Gohan the win.

So no, SP Cell being stronger than SSJ2 Gohan isn't farfetched at all.

[Incarnate]

First off, Perfect Cell was stronger than SSJ1 Gohan.

Headcanon. SS1 Gohan never fought Perfect Cell seriously and instead refused to fight because he didn't want to kill, not even someone as evil as Cell.

Second, SS2 is confirmed to be only a 2x boost over SS1.

Of course you're one of those people that see fights as nothing but numbers and powerlevels, when those have never mattered, even in the arc where they were introduced.

Third, Goku himself dismissed Gohan's claim about him losing 50% of his power after getting his arm broken.

Yeah, no. That never happens.

And fourth, SS2 Gohan was clearly losing the beam struggle with SP Cell

Again, that never happens. We are shown Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha and 50% holding back SS2 Gohan's Kamehameha dead even. You're confusing anime filler with what actually happens.

So no, SP Cell being stronger than SS2 Gohan isn't farfetched at all.

Yes it is. You're arguing someone who killed their opponent with only one arm and 50% of their power is actually weaker than the person who died, do you not see how ridiculous that is?