Unpopular DB opinions

[MasenkoHA]

I remember someone a while back when Kai first started doing an even shorter cut where they tried to get the pacing even more in line with the manga and in the end, it basically cut any sort of beat where "nothing happened". Problem is there's no sense of pacing, it all feels so rushed so no, I have ZERO interest in watching a 12 episode TOP. Generally speaking I'm fine with cutting stuff out to make a story shorter but that is fine to a point.

I think Kai went by too fast for its own good at times

Like Gohan’s turn around from scared mama’s boy to Goku Jr jumping around and chasing dinosaurs literally happened out of nowhere. The Z anime actually gave development to this change

[ABED]

I remember someone a while back when Kai first started doing an even shorter cut where they tried to get the pacing even more in line with the manga and in the end, it basically cut any sort of beat where "nothing happened". Problem is there's no sense of pacing, it all feels so rushed so no, I have ZERO interest in watching a 12 episode TOP. Generally speaking I'm fine with cutting stuff out to make a story shorter but that is fine to a point.

I think Kai went by too fast for its own good at times

Like Gohan’s turn around from scared mama’s boy to Goku Jr jumping around and chasing dinosaurs literally happened out of nowhere. The Z anime actually gave development to this change

Agreed. I think given how new he was to the audience, spending time seeing him grow so we can invest in him was a wise move. And it's not just time, it's quality time. The episodes where Gohan befriends the robot and the dinosaur are heartbreaking.

[Planetnamek]

I remember someone a while back when Kai first started doing an even shorter cut where they tried to get the pacing even more in line with the manga and in the end, it basically cut any sort of beat where "nothing happened". Problem is there's no sense of pacing, it all feels so rushed so no, I have ZERO interest in watching a 12 episode TOP. Generally speaking I'm fine with cutting stuff out to make a story shorter but that is fine to a point.

I think Kai went by too fast for its own good at times

Like Gohan’s turn around from scared mama’s boy to Goku Jr jumping around and chasing dinosaurs literally happened out of nowhere. The Z anime actually gave development to this change

Agreed. I think given how new he was to the audience, spending time seeing him grow so we can invest in him was a wise move. And it's not just time, it's quality time. The episodes where Gohan befriends the robot and the dinosaur are heartbreaking.

That was yet another issue I had with Kai, you need those quieter moments to really develop characters like Gohan and I felt like Kai lost a lot of that in its rush to trim the fat so to speak.

[ABED]

The thing is, we already have Z. Kai wasn't supposed to be a definitive version of that show, it's just supposed to be an anniversary series that gave a better idea of what the show would've looked like had it adhered closer to the manga. If you wanna watch those episodes, go watch them. I was fine with them cutting them out.

The biggest issue I have with Kai is the editing. The show is edited down to meet a certain running length so the episodes often end in weird spots. It's just awkward. It's fine for what it is, but it isn't ideal.

[MasenkoHA]

Kai as a special edition recut is fine, if heavily flawed. “I’ve watched Z a bajillion times and here’s a faster paced alternative to consume the main course and skip out on the side dish” but I don’t think I could ever recommend anyone watch Kai over Z as their first foray into the material.

Honestly ridiculous puritanical enforced censorship and Power Rangers music aside I think the original edited Funi dub had the right idea for the Saiyan saga. They trimmed 9 episodes of fat to get through the story faster (well to meet a 26 episode season restriction) and the story is better for it because we still get Gohan’s character development with the dinosaur and the orphans and get a taste of the Saiyans with the Arlia episode.

Course they also skipped over Mr.Robot which is closed to unforgivable, even if I kinda understand the reasoning

[ABED]

Course they also skipped over Mr.Robot which is closed to unforgivable, even if I kinda understand the reasoning

I understood it as the dinosaur episode is the very next one and it's the very same lesson.

[MasenkoHA]

Course they also skipped over Mr.Robot which is closed to unforgivable, even if I kinda understand the reasoning

I understood it as the dinosaur episode is the very next one and it's the very same lesson.

Yeah that’s why I assumed they skipped over the robot episode because its back to back episodes with the same story beats (Gohan finds a companion and the companion dies and Gohan is stronger for it) and the dinosaur episode was probably more desirable for the 2-11 demo

[Matches Malone]

I have ZERO interest in watching a 12 episode TOP.

12 is definitely too short, but 34 is also too much, there was no reason to have that many episodes of just endless fighting.

The biggest issue I have with Kai is the editing. The show is edited down to meet a certain running length so the episodes often end in weird spots. It's just awkward. It's fine for what it is, but it isn't ideal.

Both Kai and Z aren't ideal, which is why I wish we could get a seasonal remake that covers the entire manga.

I don’t think I could ever recommend anyone watch Kai over Z as their first foray into the material.

I don't see how anyone can get into Z after getting used to so many seasonal anime that cover their material properly. Z is a very outdated model of adapting manga that will turn anyone off who's used to today's standards of pacing.

[ABED]

Course they also skipped over Mr.Robot which is closed to unforgivable, even if I kinda understand the reasoning

I understood it as the dinosaur episode is the very next one and it's the very same lesson.

Yeah that’s why I assumed they skipped over the robot episode because its back to back episodes with the same story beats (Gohan finds a companion and the companion dies and Gohan is stronger for it) and the dinosaur episode was probably more desirable for the 2-11 demo

Ironically, the episode didn't make it to air in syndication despite being produced. It was on the DVD and I think the first time it aired was on Cartoon Network.

12 is definitely too short, but 34 is also too much, there was no reason to have that many episodes of just endless fighting.

That's true but I wasn't bothered by it being 34 episodes of fighting because it wasn't the same enemy. It was a bunch of different battles which works for me. Perhaps 20-25 episodes would be enough.

[MasenkoHA]

I understood it as the dinosaur episode is the very next one and it's the very same lesson.

Yeah that’s why I assumed they skipped over the robot episode because its back to back episodes with the same story beats (Gohan finds a companion and the companion dies and Gohan is stronger for it) and the dinosaur episode was probably more desirable for the 2-11 demo

Ironically, the episode didn't make it to air in syndication despite being produced. It was on the DVD and I think the first time it aired was on Cartoon Network.

I’m pretty sure the dino episode did air in syndication(DBZU had its air date as October 18th, 1996)

It was the Escape from Piccolo episode that was produced for syndication that was skipped because Saban decided at the last minute kids fighting police and child protective services was a bad message and refused to run the episode but it did air on Cartoon Network and was released on home video by Pioneer

[ABED]

Shit, you're right. I don't know why I was thinking it was that one. Thanks. I did remember one episode didn't make it to air, I was just confused about which one.

[WittyUsername]

The problem with the Tournament of Power going on for so long is that it’s just 30+ episodes of constant fighting in a single location that, frankly, isn’t all that exciting to look at. Still, 12 episodes would perhaps be too short. That seems like it would possibly run into the problem the manga version of the arc has, where the whole thing just feels rushed and glossed over.

[ABED]

I don't think that's quite it. It's not the same fight and the location changes over the course of the battle whereas Namek is nearly 80 episode and not even the sky changes. There's very little indication of the passage of time and there is no change until Namek starts to explode towards the tail end.

[WittyUsername]

I don't think that's quite it. It's not the same fight and the location changes over the course of the battle whereas Namek is nearly 80 episode and not even the sky changes. There's very little indication of the passage of time and there is no change until Namek starts to explode towards the tail end.

Namek at least encompasses more than just a single event. It’s not just constant fighting. There’s other stuff happening.

[ABED]

I don't think that's quite it. It's not the same fight and the location changes over the course of the battle whereas Namek is nearly 80 episode and not even the sky changes. There's very little indication of the passage of time and there is no change until Namek starts to explode towards the tail end.

Namek at least encompasses more than just a single event. It’s not just constant fighting. There’s other stuff happening.

I don't mind the constant fighting. I don't need them to do other things necessarily. I just need some sort of difference like different locales, different characters, different match ups. It's a fighting manga so that's what I'm here - the fighting. And the Namek arc is pretty consistent fighting. The issue isn't one of time but one of progress. Things need to feel like their moving towards an end, and in the tournament, the elimination of various fighters, the ticking clock, etc all feel like it's heading towards an endpoint. I get that for many it feels like it takes too long to get to that point, though.

I have a much bigger issue with the Buu arc because it all feels like a ton of padding.

[WittyUsername]

I don't think that's quite it. It's not the same fight and the location changes over the course of the battle whereas Namek is nearly 80 episode and not even the sky changes. There's very little indication of the passage of time and there is no change until Namek starts to explode towards the tail end.

Namek at least encompasses more than just a single event. It’s not just constant fighting. There’s other stuff happening.

I don't mind the constant fighting. I don't need them to do other things necessarily. I just need some sort of difference like different locales, different characters, different match ups. It's a fighting manga so that's what I'm here - the fighting. And the Namek arc is pretty consistent fighting.

It’s a fighting series, but 30+ episodes of nothing but fighting in a single dull looking location is more than a bit overwhelming. Plus, Jiren isn’t nearly as interesting an antagonist as Freeza.

[ABED]

It’s a fighting series, but 30+ episodes of nothing but fighting in a single dull looking location is more than a bit overwhelming.

But the location changes constantly over the course of the arc. Namek doesn't change for roughly 55 episodes. The tournament stage deteriorates constantly showing the passage of time and we're reminded of the time limit so there's a definite end always in sight. I love Freeza but 30 episodes of fighting the same guy got boring. The tournament was smart to break the episodes into chunks where the story of a battle might take place over an episode or two and there was a lot of variety.

When you say "nothing but fighting" what else do you want?

Yes, nothing but fighting because unlike a lot of actions, it's steeped in character. It's often funny and clever.

The big issue I have with it is the ending which is the problem with the series as a whole - while there's fun to be had, there's a lot of lateral movement but little forward movement in the story. It gives the appearance of change but without actually changing anything.

[Matches Malone]

When you say "nothing but fighting" what else do you want?

Breathing room. Why not take a break after each universe is erased to let everyone catch their breath and plan their next move ? they could also show how the tournament and universes being erased are impacting the fighters and their outlook on things.

Jiren isn’t nearly as interesting an antagonist as Freeza.

Jiren is as interesting as a rusty nail.

[WittyUsername]

It’s a fighting series, but 30+ episodes of nothing but fighting in a single dull looking location is more than a bit overwhelming.

But the location changes constantly over the course of the arc. Namek doesn't change for roughly 55 episodes. The tournament stage deteriorates constantly showing the passage of time and we're reminded of the time limit so there's a definite end always in sight. I love Freeza but 30 episodes of fighting the same guy got boring. The tournament was smart to break the episodes into chunks where the story of a battle might take place over an episode or two and there was a lot of variety.

When you say "nothing but fighting" what else do you want?

Yes, nothing but fighting because unlike a lot of actions, it's steeped in character. It's often funny and clever.

The Tournament of Power is just not an interesting looking place in general, and I don’t recall there being any real significant changes in it over the course of the arc.

I can’t agree with the notion that the fighting is particularly funny or clever. A lot of it just involves the same gags over and over. The Zen-Ohs will keep remarking on how exciting everything is (which is pretty annoying, by the way), characters will continue talking about how people like Goku keep “breaking past their limits”, Ribrianne will keep doing her magical girl shtick, etc.

[ABED]

When you say "nothing but fighting" what else do you want?

Breathing room. Why not take a break after each universe is erased to let everyone catch their breath and plan their next move ? they could also show how the tournament and universes being erased are impacting the fighters and their outlook on things.

Jiren isn’t nearly as interesting an antagonist as Freeza.

Jiren is as interesting as a rusty nail.

What is there to know? They don't want their universe to end and to cease to exist. The only thing that would change is they possibly get more desperate.

Jiren's not a great antagonist but he's suitable. I find him way more enjoyable than Cell once he reached his perfect form and Buu after the nth transformation.

Fair about catching their breath, but that needs to be kept to a minimum.

I don’t recall there being any real significant changes in it over the course of the arc.

Again, the tournament stage looks progressively worse over each episode.

I can’t agree with the notion that the fighting is particularly funny or clever. A lot of it just involves the same gags over and over.

Then I don't think you're looking enough because there were moments like one of the fighters turning out to be really tiny and difficult to see, thus giving the appearance of invisibility. There was Gohan lifting that one fat yellow fighter off the ground using his punches thus negating his opponent's advantage. And there's a great twist on a classic moment - Freeza gives a near death Goku his energy.

Thing is, I loved seeing Goku continually pass his limits in this context because it wasn't just him transforming. He kept fighting hidden depths because he fought to the point of exhaustion and kept going.