Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ankokudaishogun]

UI Peter was talking about the ANIME, not the manga.

[Magnificent Ponta]

UI Peter was talking about the ANIME, not the manga.

Ah, apologies - missed that crucial word.

[Miracles]

I've heard many fans debate whether or not Kale & Caulifla in the ToP anime were stronger than the Black arc unfused Saiyans (as crazy as that sounds). What do you guys think?

Kale definitely is stronger than FT arc Goku/Vegeta.
Kale owns TOP Blue Goku and even walks through his Kamehameha.

[Hugo Boss]

Kale is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, but Caulifla is not even close. She probably needs god/berserker forms.

[ZombieVito]

I'm reading the question again and I thought he said in base lol.

Neither Kale or Caulifla are stronger then. Not even close, even base Goku Black (after episode 50) defeats Kale at her strongest.

[UI Peter]

If SSJ2 Kefla was indeed stronger than Black arc Vegito, then it would by default mean that Kale in general and maybe even SSJ2 Caulifla are indeed stronger than the Black arc SSBs, SSJ Rage Trunks & even Rose Black at his peak (as ridiculous as it sounds) lol. Especially when you consider that Kefla is merely using SSJ2 while Vegito was using SSB.

[ZombieVito]

If SSJ2 Kefla was indeed stronger than Black arc Vegito, then it would by default mean that Kale in general and maybe even SSJ2 Caulifla are indeed stronger than the Black arc SSBs, SSJ Rage Trunks & even Rose Black at his peak (as ridiculous as it sounds) lol. Especially when you consider that Kefla is merely using SSJ2 while Vegito was using SSB.

Kefla is not using a normal Super Saiyan 2 transformation.

[GodVegetto91]

So how much stronger than Goku and Vegeta do you guys think Merus is now?? From that short little exchange between Moro and Merus in the leaked draft pages it seems Merus is still a great deal above Goku and Vegeta.. Considering he no diffed Moro with just his own power pole AND without using his full Angel powers yet....

[Magnificent Ponta]

I think that, at this stage, when Angels use their true powers - Merus included - they're more powerful than Goku and Vegeta by such an extent as to resist meaningful quantification.

When Goku achieves true Ultra Instinct and starts to master it, the difference in sheer power will probably become less of an issue, but right now, I'd say there probably isn't any comparison between Goku and Merus.

[FishermanJohnWest]

If SSJ2 Kefla was indeed stronger than Black arc Vegito, then it would by default mean that Kale in general and maybe even SSJ2 Caulifla are indeed stronger than the Black arc SSBs, SSJ Rage Trunks & even Rose Black at his peak (as ridiculous as it sounds) lol. Especially when you consider that Kefla is merely using SSJ2 while Vegito was using SSB.

Kefla is not using a normal Super Saiyan 2 transformation.

Doesn't really matter considering she wasn't using normal SSJ forms and yet she wasn't that much greater then Blue despite her base form was > SSJG Goku (weakened)

[DBZ Macky]

So how much stronger than Goku and Vegeta do you guys think Merus is now?? From that short little exchange between Moro and Merus in the leaked draft pages it seems Merus is still a great deal above Goku and Vegeta.. Considering he no diffed Moro with just his own power pole AND without using his full Angel powers yet....

I think currently he's on the same tier as UI Goku, Vegeta and Moro, except he's at the top of that list.
I don't think he's above Beerus from what we've seen for now, though.

Caulifla is definitely stronger than them after episode 113. I have no idea about Kale.

I'm still unsure how strong the Universe 6 Saiyans are supposed to be, but I think I'm leaning more towards them still being below Buu.

Since we don't really see them fight any of the guys we know other than Goku and Vegeta in Super, I think it should be acceptable to look at other official material. Long story short, here's something from Dragon Ball Legends.


Base Cabba is stated to be much weaker than this Cell.


This Cell is stated to be weaker than the Cell that Gohan fought during the Cell Games.

I know there's an argument to be made that "the video game is not canon", but it's in line with some stuff in the actual story as well.
Combine this with the fact that Goku still displays confidence in Buu's abilities despite seeing Frost, Magetta and Cabba in the Universe 6 tournament, and it seems pretty clear to me that they are not supposed to be stronger than Gotenks as we would be lead to believe.

Tl;dr Base Cabba/Caulifla < Cell < SS2 Trunks < SSR Goku Black

[ZombieVito]

Doesn't really matter considering she wasn't using normal SSJ forms and yet she wasn't that much greater then Blue despite her base form was > SSJG Goku (weakened)

What are you talking about? SS Kefla was even compared to the Genkidama which was way stronger than KKx20 Blue Goku.

I know there's an argument to be made that "the video game is not canon", but it's in line with some stuff in the actual story as well.
Combine this with the fact that Goku still displays confidence in Buu's abilities despite seeing Frost, Magetta and Cabba in the Universe 6 tournament, and it seems pretty clear to me that they are not supposed to be stronger than Gotenks as we would be lead to believe.

Tl;dr Base Cabba/Caulifla < Cell < SS2 Trunks < SSR Goku Black

[DBZ Macky]

Spoiler:

Does the show really need to straight up say that Vegeta was holding back when it's already shown in such a way that anyone could pick it up?

Is Vegeta pretending to get hurt by Cabba's attacks, shrugging off his blasts in literally one fell swoop, and tanking a punch to the face not a good enough visual indicator?

[ZombieVito]

Spoiler:

Does the show really need to straight up say that Vegeta was holding back when it's already shown in such a way that anyone could pick it up?

Is Vegeta pretending to get hurt by Cabba's attacks, shrugging off his blasts in literally one fell swoop, and tanking a punch to the face not a good enough visual indicator?

Vegeta confirmed he and Cabba were equal in base so there really shouldn't be any debate.

And SS Cabba was weakened of course. He got beat by SS Vegeta hard before transforming.

[Jack Bz]

So how much stronger than Goku and Vegeta do you guys think Merus is now?? From that short little exchange between Moro and Merus in the leaked draft pages it seems Merus is still a great deal above Goku and Vegeta.. Considering he no diffed Moro with just his own power pole AND without using his full Angel powers yet....

I think Merus at full strength is a whole realm beyond Goku, Vegeta, Moro and Beerus. I think when Goku masters UI it will be the equivalent of Battle of Gods Goku Super Saiyan God to Beerus: the first toe dipped into a new realm of power but still far off the real thing. The angels are just so OP that even a trainee one is another realm of strength imo.

[ankokudaishogun]

Is Vegeta pretending to get hurt by Cabba's attacks, shrugging off his blasts in literally one fell swoop, and tanking a punch to the face not a good enough visual indicator?

to be fair, most if not all of that can be easily attributed to Vegeta's greater mastery of the transformation.
He's undoubtedly using Grade-4, if possible further perfected, while Cabba's on Grade-1 being his first transformation.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the manga and the anime made very clear that Vegeta saying he was equally matched with Cabba was a “lie”. Even Goku comments that Vegeta didn’t even need to go past Super Saiyan to win that fight.

[UI Peter]

If SSJ2 Kefla was indeed stronger than Black arc Vegito, then it would by default mean that Kale in general and maybe even SSJ2 Caulifla are indeed stronger than the Black arc SSBs, SSJ Rage Trunks & even Rose Black at his peak (as ridiculous as it sounds) lol. Especially when you consider that Kefla is merely using SSJ2 while Vegito was using SSB.

Kefla is not using a normal Super Saiyan 2 transformation.

Yes she is. She was officially only using normal SSJ1 & 2 according to Toei and the manga, not some special form of SSJ.

[UI Peter]

I think the manga and the anime made very clear that Vegeta saying he was equally matched with Cabba was a “lie”. Even Goku comments that Vegeta didn’t even need to go past Super Saiyan to win that fight.

No they didn't. In fact, in the anime Vegeta saying that him & Cabba were equal was a monologue (and he has no reason to lie to himself). Also, Cabba has Plenty of feats in both versions of the ToP proving that he's base is on par with Goku's & Vegeta's.

[ZombieVito]

Yes she is. She was officially only using normal SSJ1 & 2 according to Toei and the manga, not some special form of SSJ.

Normal Super Saiyan forms don't have fucking Green hair.

Come on now.