Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[ArmenianPepsi]

Yes, but this seems to be a more recent thing with Modern DB due to how low quality its been, both in terms of writing and production. Instead of calling it out for what it is, fans not only dismiss any criticisms, but go as far as to try and convince critics that the original had the same problems, which is factually wrong. Not only does modern DB not live up to the standards of today's anime, it doesn't even live up to its predecessor's standards.

This video here really digs into that kind of mindset of "Well you think modern X is bad? Well the old X had the same issues too!"
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH-wD-wMx54

Obviously it's mostly directed at the fans of Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who, but the same kind of thing can be applied to DB

[Matches Malone]

This video here really digs into that kind of mindset of "Well you think modern X is bad? Well the old X had the same issues too!"
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH-wD-wMx54

Obviously it's mostly directed at the fans of Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who, but the same kind of thing can be applied to DB

This perfectly describes a lot of modern DB fans. There's nothing worse than trying to bring down the classics in order to justify the poor quality of today's modern remakes. If classic DB had the same (many) issues as modern DB, it wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it did, much less turn into a timeless classic that inspired countless other manga. Don't get me wrong, you can enjoy modern DB, but please don't spread false information about it being just as good as what came before, or what came before having the same issues.

I think all changes are possible, what will get you is how these changes come/happen.

It's not that it can't happen, but rather fans being afraid of change.

I like Goku and Vegeta together. They play off each other well.

I do as well, but not all the time. This is all we've gotten since modern DB began. Why not separate them and show us how they'd act around different people ? Give us an arc where Goku needs to rely on Gohan and Piccolo for example, while they themselves have to find a way to bring themselves up to his level to be useful. How would Vegeta handle a situation where he's completely separated from the people he knows ? How would he deal with someone where under normal circumstances Goku would be there to help ? That's the kind of changes I'm talking about, taking these well established characters out of their comfort zone and putting them in situations they're not used to.

DB has had its day. It's not about the quality of the writer.

It is actually. A writer may not recapture what made DB a hit back in its day, but they can still do things to justify its return. Look at RF, are you going to tell me that it was the best thing they could've come up with to follow BOG ? I think any writer could've come up with a better follow up than that.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

Agreed. Doing Dragon Ball without Goku would be like doing Transformers but without Optimus Prime. Coincidentally though both franchises both had a stint where they tried to forgo their star character.

[Matches Malone]

Doing Dragon Ball without Goku would be like doing Transformers but without Optimus Prime.

I personally wouldn't remove Goku from the picture, but I'd like to see him and the other cast members in different situations. If a franchise like DB is going to continue (seemingly) indefinitely, then why not take the characters out of their comfort zone and try new things with them ?

[Psajdak]

FighterZ (sort of) showed Goku and Vegeta in different situations, and they stayed same.

In one of the recent Super manga chapters Piccolo said something about Goku not needing to change, or something like that - something that I already noticed before, as in "good, old same old - same old"...

I guess Japanese people like when things don't change, much.

[Matches Malone]

FighterZ (sort of) showed Goku and Vegeta in different situations, and they stayed same.

In one of the recent Super manga chapters Piccolo said something about Goku not needing to change, or something like that - something that I already noticed before, as in "good, old same old - same old"...

I guess Japanese people like when things don't change, much.

Even if they don't change themselves, different situations will help keep things fresh. Vegeta for example can always count on Goku when things get bad, but how would he act if Goku wasn't there ? Goku has gotten used to Vegeta always being by his side, as he can rely on him for teamwork, backup, or fusion, but what if he's not around ? How would the dynamic change for Goku if he had to rely on Piccolo or Gohan instead ?

[KBABZ]

I still cannot believe that Dragon Ball fundamentally falls apart when you take the super strong fight-happy country bumpkin out of the picture, resulting in a total collapse of its plot, world, characters and villains. There are several points in the story, notably the Namek arc, where Goku isn't present for an extended period of time and it never feels like "BOY WHEN IS GOKU GONNA GET HERE THE STORY SURE ISN'T WORKING WITHOUT HIM".

[ABED]

I still cannot believe that Dragon Ball fundamentally falls apart when you take the super strong fight-happy country bumpkin out of the picture, resulting in a total collapse of its plot, world, characters and villains. There are several points in the story, notably the Namek arc, where Goku isn't present for an extended period of time and it never feels like "BOY WHEN IS GOKU GONNA GET HERE THE STORY SURE ISN'T WORKING WITHOUT HIM".

The story is still building towards the final battle between Goku and Freeza regardless of how much Goku is involved in the plot. The plot didn't involve Goku but the story is still very much about him.

And you can't point to a part of DB where Goku is not as involved in the plot but still part of the story as evidence of what DB would be like without him. Regarding the last sentence is not what the story is going for. It's going for "boy I can't wait for Goku to arrive and kick some ass!" The story is building towards his arrival. Toriyama is going for catharsis.

It is actually. A writer may not recapture what made DB a hit back in its day, but they can still do things to justify its return. Look at RF, are you going to tell me that it was the best thing they could've come up with to follow BOG ? I think any writer could've come up with a better follow up than that.

At best we'd get something better but never truly great since the arcs are all concluded. What made BoG work besides the introduction of 2 great new characters is that it thematically very similar to the end of the manga but in a more satisfying manner.

I've grown tired of separating characters. I want to see them interact.

[Skar]

This video here really digs into that kind of mindset of "Well you think modern X is bad? Well the old X had the same issues too!"
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH-wD-wMx54

Obviously it's mostly directed at the fans of Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who, but the same kind of thing can be applied to DB

Great video! It sums up my issue with modern sequels. Like he said, any minor criticism is usually met with false equivalencies or a cop-out that trashes the original series. This always raises the question of why are these considered classics in the first place if they're as bad as these fans make them out to be. Despite their flaws, they have enough merits that they're still appreciated many years later. That's why I think the countless other series within the same genres have been lost or forgotten over the years and no studio is looking to give them a sequel while these have remained timeless classics.

I feel no one involved in these sequels would claim they live up to the originals or believes these will be viewed years from now the same way the original is today. So much time has passed that almost everyone working on them was a fan growing up so I always expect fan service and more of a homage. I can still enjoy some modern sequels for what they are and try to have realistic expectations for them because it's difficult to recapture all the elements that made the original a classic. For example, Terminator 2 is considered one of the greatest sequels of all time. If it was never made back then and James Cameron decided to come out of retirement to make a sequel decades later, it won't be the same T2.

There's a limit to how much they can milk a franchise before it runs dry since a lot of sequels in recent years have failed to breakeven or didn't perform as well as expected . Still most of the top 10 grossing movies in recent years have been sequels or part of a franchise. I don't mind superhero movies as much because they have almost a century of comic book storylines to pull from. I prefer them over remakes an or sequels that continue a series after its end.

[ABED]

Revivals aren't exactly the same thing as sequels. The former often suck because the story was already complete and lightning in a bottle is gone. How many revivals can you think of that were good outside of the Rocky franchise?

[Jiren The Alpha]

This video here really digs into that kind of mindset of "Well you think modern X is bad? Well the old X had the same issues too!"
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH-wD-wMx54

Obviously it's mostly directed at the fans of Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who, but the same kind of thing can be applied to DB

This perfectly describes a lot of modern DB fans. There's nothing worse than trying to bring down the classics in order to justify the poor quality of today's modern remakes. If classic DB had the same (many) issues as modern DB, it wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it did, much less turn into a timeless classic that inspired countless other manga. Don't get me wrong, you can enjoy modern DB, but please don't spread false information about it being just as good as what came before, or what came before having the same issues.

I think all changes are possible, what will get you is how these changes come/happen.

It's not that it can't happen, but rather fans being afraid of change.

I like Goku and Vegeta together. They play off each other well.

I do as well, but not all the time. This is all we've gotten since modern DB began. Why not separate them and show us how they'd act around different people ? Give us an arc where Goku needs to rely on Gohan and Piccolo for example, while they themselves have to find a way to bring themselves up to his level to be useful. How would Vegeta handle a situation where he's completely separated from the people he knows ? How would he deal with someone where under normal circumstances Goku would be there to help ? That's the kind of changes I'm talking about, taking these well established characters out of their comfort zone and putting them in situations they're not used to.

DB has had its day. It's not about the quality of the writer.

It is actually. A writer may not recapture what made DB a hit back in its day, but they can still do things to justify its return. Look at RF, are you going to tell me that it was the best thing they could've come up with to follow BOG ? I think any writer could've come up with a better follow up than that.

The reason DB was popular was because Goku was a goofy character in a edgy shonen jump, Goku MADE Dragon Ball popular, that's why Toriyama and Toei keep using him.

Classic Dragon Ball did have flaws just like modern Dragon Ball, both are popular so i still don't get this "low standards" that people are talking about, this thread title sounds really condescending, it sounds like some people don't like that mordern DB has fans so people shit on the them and say something like "you most have low standards if you like Super" or "you only like Super because of nostalgia" which is really ironic. And why chance something because of a vocal minority?

[Matches Malone]

Classic Dragon Ball did have flaws just like modern Dragon Ball.

I still don't get this "low standards" that people are talking about.

It sounds like some people don't like that modern DB has fans so people shit on the them and say something like "you most have low standards if you like Super" or "you only like Super because of nostalgia" which is really ironic.

If the only way to defend something is to bring something else down, then you've automatically lost the argument. No one ever claimed classic DB, or any other anime/manga franchise was perfect, but they at least lived up to the standards of their time.

I don't see how you couldn't, as Super's quality is nowhere near what the classics are, much less other anime released today. What makes things worse is the fact that modern DB has shown that it can not only be good, but amazing. the BOG movie is a masterpiece, Zamasu is a great villain (in a poorly written arc), and Broly has some of the best animation I've ever seen. Unfortunately, these are few and far between.

We don't care what people like, we just don't like seeing people drag classic DB through the mud to make themselves feel better about liking modern DB. We're also not happy seeing these companies and Toriyama give us the absolute bare minimum of what the franchise is capable of.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Classic Dragon Ball did have flaws just like modern Dragon Ball.

I still don't get this "low standards" that people are talking about.

It sounds like some people don't like that modern DB has fans so people shit on the them and say something like "you most have low standards if you like Super" or "you only like Super because of nostalgia" which is really ironic.

If the only way to defend something is to bring something else down, then you've automatically lost the argument. No one ever claimed classic DB, or any other anime/manga franchise was perfect, but they at least lived up to the standards of their time.

I don't see how you couldn't, as Super's quality is nowhere near what the classics are, much less other anime released today. What makes things worse is the fact that modern DB has shown that it can not only be good, but amazing. the BOG movie is a masterpiece, Zamasu is a great villain (in a poorly written arc), and Broly has some of the best animation I've ever seen. Unfortunately, these are few and far between.

We don't care what people like, we just don't like seeing people drag classic DB through the mud to make themselves feel better about liking modern DB. We're also not happy seeing these companies and Toriyama give us the absolute bare minimum of what the franchise is capable of.

So its okay to drag Modern DB through the mud to make Classic DB look good ?, i don't get why fans have to drag anything throught the mud, did people back in the days shit on DBZ because it wasn't like Early Dragon Ball ?, i don't like Toyotaro's manga but i don't go around and say to people that they have low standards for liking it because i feel like that's a little insulting to say.

[Matches Malone]

So its okay to drag Modern DB through the mud to make Classic DB look good ?,

I don't get why fans have to drag anything through the mud.

No one's dragging anything through the mud to make classic DB look good, it's good enough to stand on its own and against other Shonen.

We're just calling it out for its shortcomings because we have high standards and expectations for the franchise.

[VegettoEX]

Folks, don't misconstrue "I'm making comparison points for the sake of comprehensive analysis" as "fuck it burn it all down".

Are you truly reading all of the words someone is using? Are you truly listening to them? Are you truly making an effort to thoughtfully consider another viewpoint?

If the answer is yes, great! If the answer is no, that's not good! If the answer is "yes Mike I truly am I guarantee you I am making this effort but this person is incredibly spiteful and does not appear to have any worthwhile criticism and instead wishes just to be as loud as possible in order to get as much attention as possible to obfuscate the fact that they do not have anything worthwhile to say"... well, do not give them the attention they so crave!

[Psajdak]

As much as original Dragon Ball is glorified, does anyone actually goes to YT to rewatch its iconic scenes?

[VegettoEX]

As much as original Dragon Ball is glorified, does anyone actually goes to YT to rewatch its iconic scenes?

Maybe I'm the anomaly, but I don't use YouTube for anything. I still pop in DVDs if I want to see something. I don't want to be at the whim of draconian copyright control + some rando's selection on cropping/saturation/filtering/audio/subtitles.

I say that, but then I guess I'm wondering based on the way you phrased it: ignoring viewing format entirely, are you asking that, based on this supposed "glorification"(?) of the original material, do the people who "glorify" it effectively put their money where their mouth is and in fact revisit this material often?

[Psajdak]

Maybe I'm the anomaly, but I don't use YouTube for anything. I still pop in DVDs if I want to see something. I don't want to be at the whim of draconian copyright control + some rando's selection on cropping/saturation/filtering/audio/subtitles.

Not sure why would you go through all that trouble in 2020, when all it takes is to type in what you want, and you immediately can see it.

I say that, but then I guess I'm wondering based on the way you phrased it: ignoring viewing format entirely, are you asking that, based on this supposed "glorification"(?) of the original material, do the people who "glorify" it effectively put their money where their mouth is and in fact revisit this material often?

Yeah, I mean exactly that...

I just think that DB nowadays is whole different from what it was even pre Z, and from what I saw, for 99.9% people, original DB is just something to go through, before getting to the real relevant things starting with Saiyan arc.

[MasenkoHA]

As much as original Dragon Ball is glorified, does anyone actually goes to YT to rewatch its iconic scenes?

I usually just rewatch original Dragon Ball

I do what you describe above for Z, only because I rarely revisit Z from start to finish

[Jiren The Alpha]

So its okay to drag Modern DB through the mud to make Classic DB look good ?,

I don't get why fans have to drag anything through the mud.

No one's dragging anything through the mud to make classic DB look good, it's good enough to stand on its own and against other Shonen.

We're just calling it out for its shortcomings because we have high standards and expectations for the franchise.

Do you see Dragon Ball as a perfect series?, if no, then why can't people point out it's flaws?, if yes, then can i also say that you have low standards? its the same thing, if Dragon Ball is good enough to stand on its own then why do the anime community look down on the Dragon Ball fans ?, they thing the fans have a low standards in anime for liking DB.