"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[emperior]

I wonder what will happen now that Goku masters Ultra Instinct once and for all.

Even Merus said that no one would be able to stand against Ultra Instinct Goku, and now we have confirmation that Angels are basically programmed to disappear into nothingness as soon as they get serious about fighting and thus they will never be Goku’s foes unless something happens and things change. By the way, props to those who figured it out in advance a few pages back! GodVegetto in particular:

The way I took it is that when an Angel “breaks the code” no external being erases them (since they can’t be erased, they have absolute immortality), they simply self destruct... It’s part of their internal mathematical coding. It’s their nature! It’s reason itself that made it to be this way!

I actually believed that Grand Priest wss the one enforcing the law. This makes me super curious about Angels’ origin and what they exactly represent and why they exist.

But now, the question is, who exactly can be a worthy opponent to Goku now? Will we finally get to End of Z so that Goku can train Uub and in the meanwhile some other mortals can train and get even stronger than before (such as Jiren and Broly, for example)? Or will Beerus too master UI and have a rematch with Goku? Maybe they will actually introduce the Demons to oppose Angels, considering how the manga said that Angels can’t revive someone killed by a Demon?

Of course they will find someone who can surpass Goku, but it will be increasingly difficult now because Ultra Instinct has been treated as the pinnacle of power, and both Merus and Whis now have said that mastering the state would grant Goku the ultimate strength.

[UpFromTheSkies]

He said the power that was returned to him has no limit, which is the back up of his powers he put in 73, not Piccolo and Vegeta's abilities. 73 could only use Moro's powers for so long, but since they are originally Moro's, he doesn't have that limit.

No, he said all the copied abilities had no time limit, which is BS without an explanation.

Go back and read those chapters again, Moro said he had a complete back up of HIS powers stored in 73 and regained them when he absorbed 73. Gohan thought the back up of Moro's powers would only last 30 minutes like they did when 73 used them, but Moro says there is no time limit on them because they've returned home to him. He then says, "In fact, I've also gained his copy ability", so he is referring to the copy ability and the back up of his power separately and they both aren't limitless.

Spoiler:

Although none of this matters at this point since Merus destroyed his copy abilities

[TheSaiyanGod]

This is the same thing that happened to Gohan in the Boo saga and I don't see anyone saying that his role was fantastic in that arc. A lot of build up that leads to nothing. The only difference is that Vegeta may or may not have a role in Moro's defeat with the Spirit Fission, but what happened to Vegeta in chapter 61 was no different than what has already been done several times in the series

I think Gohan's role in the Buu arc is very underrated. He may not have gotten the kill, but that doesn't change anything about what he did get, just as Vegeta not (possibly) getting the kill shouldn't change anything about what he got.

The problem is that theoretically, he got nothing. What he did was exactly what happened in the Cell Saga, when he destroyed 2nd form Cell and then let him achieve his perfect form, or when Gohan beat Buu and it just made the enemy even stronger. Vegeta could have been removed from the battle on Earth and everything could have happened in the same way, with Merus appearing and triggering Goku's MUI.

[ZombieVito]

Go back and read those chapters again, Moro said he had a complete back up of HIS powers stored in 73 and regained them when he absorbed 73. Gohan thought the back up of Moro's powers would only last 30 minutes like they did when 73 used them, but Moro says there is no time limit on them because they've returned home to him. He then says, "In fact, I've also gained his copy ability", so he is referring to the copy ability and the back up of his power separately and they both aren't limitless.

Spoiler:

Although none of this matters at this point since Merus destroyed his copy abilities

Take your own advise and reread the chapter.

After Moro uses Piccolo's regeneration, he says he has access to all of the abilities 7-3 copied and without a time limit on them which doesn't make sense. It's never explained why the 30 time limit is not applied to Piccolo's abilities along with the other ones.

I'm not talking about Moro's back up power in 7-3.

[Kinokima]

This is the same thing that happened to Gohan in the Boo saga and I don't see anyone saying that his role was fantastic in that arc. A lot of build up that leads to nothing. The only difference is that Vegeta may or may not have a role in Moro's defeat with the Spirit Fission, but what happened to Vegeta in chapter 61 was no different than what has already been done several times in the series

I think Gohan's role in the Buu arc is very underrated. He may not have gotten the kill, but that doesn't change anything about what he did get, just as Vegeta not (possibly) getting the kill shouldn't change anything about what he got.

The problem is that theoretically, he got nothing. What he did was exactly what happened in the Cell Saga, when he destroyed 2nd form Cell and then let him achieve his perfect form, or when Gohan beat Buu and it just made the enemy even stronger. Vegeta could have been removed from the battle on Earth and everything could have happened in the same way, with Merus appearing and triggering Goku's MUI.

But you are still assuming he won’t do anything else when he literally still has a move that will counter Moro

How do people know he won’t do anything else?

Also he did help bring the Namekians back to life so regardless he did do something that has positive results

[Koitsukai]

It was a really nice chapter, we finally got to see an angel fighting to the death(his). He used his skills first and when needed, Merus even went "full" angel to seal off for good Moro's technique.
Toyo found a good way to get Merus into the field and let him do his thang. His bond with Goku was really well done, reminiscing about their time together (the anime has material to give us a 5 star episode right there), and seeing Goku suffer while Merus was sacrificing himself was fantastic. His farewell was just great, you have to be a psychopath to not get the feels.
Not to mention, Goku going in to save his friend and fighting Moro even though he was clearly outmatched, when Merus was actually doing pretty good and needed no help.
Merus was a really nice addition and his participation has been key in this arc, actually much more than Beerus in the entire DBS, lol

Probably we have like 3 more chapters to go, I still think Vegeta will play a part in the win, I thought they would end up fighting together but next to MUI Goku, he would be like Alfred fighting alongside Batman, so we'll see what Toyo comes up with.

And, I can't discard Beerus finally doing something, why did he come back for then?

Also, what's up with Whis being such a dick to Merus at the end of the chapter?

[Magnificent Ponta]

Also, what's up with Whis being such a dick to Merus at the end of the chapter?

It may well be a studied Angelic impartiality/indifference, but I find it interesting that his indifference seems very similar to #18's at #17's apparent self-destruction in the Tournament of Power (the last thing that enabled Goku to access True Ultra Instinct). Toyotarou may be going for a similar sort of 'beat' there.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think Gohan's role in the Buu arc is very underrated. He may not have gotten the kill, but that doesn't change anything about what he did get, just as Vegeta not (possibly) getting the kill shouldn't change anything about what he got.

The problem is that theoretically, he got nothing. What he did was exactly what happened in the Cell Saga, when he destroyed 2nd form Cell and then let him achieve his perfect form, or when Gohan beat Buu and it just made the enemy even stronger. Vegeta could have been removed from the battle on Earth and everything could have happened in the same way, with Merus appearing and triggering Goku's MUI.

But you are still assuming he won’t do anything else when he literally still has a move that will counter Moro

How do people know he won’t do anything else?

Also he did help bring the Namekians back to life so regardless he did do something that has positive results

I didn't assume that, I said in my previous post that Vegeta may or may not have a role in Moro's defeat, but that what happened to him was the same thing that happened to Gohan (and by extension Gotenks) in the Boo arc. And that at this point, he could be removed from the battle on Earth without consequences.

[Peach]

The last few issues have just been... Annoying.

I don't think an on going manga is the best format for Dragon Ball anymore. Why can't they stick to television specials and movies like Lupin the Third?

[Kinokima]

The problem is that theoretically, he got nothing. What he did was exactly what happened in the Cell Saga, when he destroyed 2nd form Cell and then let him achieve his perfect form, or when Gohan beat Buu and it just made the enemy even stronger. Vegeta could have been removed from the battle on Earth and everything could have happened in the same way, with Merus appearing and triggering Goku's MUI.

But you are still assuming he won’t do anything else when he literally still has a move that will counter Moro

How do people know he won’t do anything else?

Also he did help bring the Namekians back to life so regardless he did do something that has positive results

I didn't assume that, I said in my previous post that Vegeta may or may not have a role in Moro's defeat, but that what happened to him was the same thing that happened to Gohan (and by extension Gotenks) in the Boo arc. And that at this point, he could be removed from the battle on Earth without consequences.

I admit if his role ends here I agree with you it will be unfulfilling but I also don’t think it will. I guess time will tell

[Neon Z]

The last few issues have just been... Annoying.

I don't think an on going manga is the best format for Dragon Ball anymore. Why can't they stick to television specials and movies like Lupin the Third?

Lupin does that because it gives a lot of creative control to different directors and writers, with the only limitation being keeping the core of the franchise (the main gang can't be reduced or expanded). Toei still wants everything Dragonball related to spin around Toriyama since they still seem to fear failure if they don't have his name there.

[GodVegetto91]

I wonder what will happen now that Goku masters Ultra Instinct once and for all.

Even Merus said that no one would be able to stand against Ultra Instinct Goku, and now we have confirmation that Angels are basically programmed to disappear into nothingness as soon as they get serious about fighting and thus they will never be Goku’s foes unless something happens and things change. By the way, props to those who figured it out in advance a few pages back! GodVegetto in particular:

The way I took it is that when an Angel “breaks the code” no external being erases them (since they can’t be erased, they have absolute immortality), they simply self destruct... It’s part of their internal mathematical coding. It’s their nature! It’s reason itself that made it to be this way!

I actually believed that Grand Priest wss the one enforcing the law. This makes me super curious about Angels’ origin and what they exactly represent and why they exist.

But now, the question is, who exactly can be a worthy opponent to Goku now? Will we finally get to End of Z so that Goku can train Uub and in the meanwhile some other mortals can train and get even stronger than before (such as Jiren and Broly, for example)? Or will Beerus too master UI and have a rematch with Goku? Maybe they will actually introduce the Demons to oppose Angels, considering how the manga said that Angels can’t revive someone killed by a Demon?

Of course they will find someone who can surpass Goku, but it will be increasingly difficult now because Ultra Instinct has been treated as the pinnacle of power, and both Merus and Whis now have said that mastering the state would grant Goku the ultimate strength.

Thanks for the headsup! I appreciate that. As for their origin.. I would say it is the system itself (reason) that made them to be. Though ofcourse Dragon Ball is set up in such a way as to usually have another being as their source (much like Abrahamism).

As for Goku’s next enemies, that’s going to be increasingly though to come up with new enemies, ESPECIALLY among MORTALS! They already have surpassed most Gods of Destruction and Angels can’t afford to get into a serious fight..

This is why I have the idea of introducing a NEW type of Angel from the Dark Demon Realm, and simply have their race be called “Evil Angels” They are not allowed to leave their realm, but inside their realm there are no limits and they are allowed to go full out. (These ones are NOT immortal since our heroes need to be able to defeat them) But they ARE as strong as the original ones!

An alternative route they can go is something that they have already done before in GT and is thus unoriginal, but they can use the concept of Evil Shadow Dragons! It always made the most sense to me from a story telling perspective. They’ve been abusing the Dragon Balls for so long now. Not to mention the fact that the show itself is literally called “DRAGON BALL” aswell xD

[CashmanX]

Also, what's up with Whis being such a dick to Merus at the end of the chapter?

It may well be a studied Angelic impartiality/indifference, but I find it interesting that his indifference seems very similar to #18's at #17's apparent self-destruction in the Tournament of Power (the last thing that enabled Goku to access True Ultra Instinct). Toyotarou may be going for a similar sort of 'beat' there.

...

...he's not actually dead, is he? Just using an extremely slow version of teleportation.

"lol I'm phasing out of existence Goku! Please carry on this fight in my stead!"

*Proceeds to yuck it up with the Grand Priest while Goku snaps back on Earth*

Toyo pls.

[Koitsukai]

Even though I've been cheering for Geets to get the W, with the build up MUI Goku just got, Merus even said Goku would stomp anybody, I'm not so sure I want a shared victor. Nor I think it would be good either.

If Goku masters UI, he should fuck Moro up. If not, then what was Merus going on about then? could he be so wrong even after learning where Moro caps at?
If he doesn't master UI, then fuck it, what the hell was all that about?

The only way I see Vegeta needing to intervene is if Moro gets another pass from Toyo and asspulls some other thing. Or if UI runs out, but we've already seen that to favour teamwork in the ToP, it would be boring to keep the same template, and the point of this whole Merus thing was for Goku to reach that level and get the win once and for all. Plus, this arc has been dragged long enough to still not be witnessing the final fight.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Also, what's up with Whis being such a dick to Merus at the end of the chapter?

It may well be a studied Angelic impartiality/indifference, but I find it interesting that his indifference seems very similar to #18's at #17's apparent self-destruction in the Tournament of Power (the last thing that enabled Goku to access True Ultra Instinct). Toyotarou may be going for a similar sort of 'beat' there.

...

...he's not actually dead, is he? Just using an extremely slow version of teleportation.

"lol I'm phasing out of existence Goku! Please carry on this fight in my stead!"

*Proceeds to yuck it up with the Grand Priest while Goku snaps back on Earth*

Toyo pls.

"So Dad, you know that trick you showed me? About how to teleport out of existence and phase out? Everyone fell for it! LOL!"

If that happened, Merus has 10/10 acting skills for faking death lol.

[Omgzord]

There is something inherently wrong with Beeru's portrait in this story. Isn't his job to deal with threats like Moro?
For f*ck sake, he got almost erased the last arc because he sucked at his job and had a low rate mortals
The manga version of Beerus and Whiss are so emotionless and lack any sort of empathy toward any of the cast even after spending so much time with them.

What is even the point of him in-universe? He does absolutely nothing and I mean nothing at all.
Surely Beerus just coming in and Hakai'ing Momo would be boring but Toyotarou's story lacks so much continuity within its own setting.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

There is something inherently wrong with Beeru's portrait in this story. Isn't his job to deal with threats like Moro?
For f*ck sake, he got almost erased the last arc because he sucked at his job and had a low rate mortals
The manga version of Beerus and Whiss are so emotionless and lack any sort of empathy toward any of the cast even after spending so much time with them.

What is even the point of him in-universe? He does absolutely nothing and I mean nothing at all.
Surely Beerus just coming in and Hakai'ing Momo would be boring but Toyotarou's story lacks so much continuity within its own setting.

Problem is they want to keep Beerus's character stagnant. You'd think the TOP would at least make Beerus question why the fuck Moro is alive and what purpose he serves other than causing mindless destruction. Beerus should've at least stepped up to the plate when Moro became Perfect and nearly killed everyone. Beerus sucks at his job and honestly they need a new destroyer, because Merus's death only happened due to their negligence in dealing with threats like these.

The point is for Beerus to basically be a standing stick for strength. Though it would help if he actually did something....They should've at least had Beerus fight Moro, because honestly its just stupid for Beerus not to intervene. What will it take for Beerus to step in? Someone fucking threatening to kill Shin? Does someone need to hold Shin at gun-point for Beerus to step up?

Also, what the hell is with Beerus's goals? Wasn't Beerus's reason for waking up to find strong opponents who might be worth his time? But whenever these threats show up and actually show to be a threat to his position, he just....does nothing.

[WittyUsername]

There is something inherently wrong with Beeru's portrait in this story. Isn't his job to deal with threats like Moro?
For f*ck sake, he got almost erased the last arc because he sucked at his job and had a low rate mortals
The manga version of Beerus and Whiss are so emotionless and lack any sort of empathy toward any of the cast even after spending so much time with them.

What is even the point of him in-universe? He does absolutely nothing and I mean nothing at all.
Surely Beerus just coming in and Hakai'ing Momo would be boring but Toyotarou's story lacks so much continuity within its own setting.

Beerus also apparently couldn’t be bothered to deal with Majin Boo, even though he directly threatened Beerus’ own existence, so I guess we just have to accept that he’s lazy to an almost suicidal degree.

[Kinokima]

Even though I've been cheering for Geets to get the W, with the build up MUI Goku just got, Merus even said Goku would stomp anybody, I'm not so sure I want a shared victor. Nor I think it would be good either.

If Goku masters UI, he should fuck Moro up. If not, then what was Merus going on about then? could he be so wrong even after learning where Moro caps at?
If he doesn't master UI, then fuck it, what the hell was all that about?

The only way I see Vegeta needing to intervene is if Moro gets another pass from Toyo and asspulls some other thing. Or if UI runs out, but we've already seen that to favour teamwork in the ToP, it would be boring to keep the same template, and the point of this whole Merus thing was for Goku to reach that level and get the win once and for all. Plus, this arc has been dragged long enough to still not be witnessing the final fight.

But it would mean Goku’s training meant something but Vegeta’s did not. That’s why I feel it would be extremely disappointing if only Goku’s training means something in the end.

Also Vegeta didn’t just get a power up but a move that literally counters Moro and in fact can take apart 7:3 from Moro. It just seems strange to have him have that ability of separating two characters and not have him use it

If Goku and Vegeta team up it would mean nothing is wasted in the arc

And I think Moro disappearing and saying to Goku your power still won’t be enough wouldn’t have the same ring to it. I do think UI will be enough just with a little assistance.

[Koitsukai]

Even though I've been cheering for Geets to get the W, with the build up MUI Goku just got, Merus even said Goku would stomp anybody, I'm not so sure I want a shared victor. Nor I think it would be good either.

If Goku masters UI, he should fuck Moro up. If not, then what was Merus going on about then? could he be so wrong even after learning where Moro caps at?
If he doesn't master UI, then fuck it, what the hell was all that about?

The only way I see Vegeta needing to intervene is if Moro gets another pass from Toyo and asspulls some other thing. Or if UI runs out, but we've already seen that to favour teamwork in the ToP, it would be boring to keep the same template, and the point of this whole Merus thing was for Goku to reach that level and get the win once and for all. Plus, this arc has been dragged long enough to still not be witnessing the final fight.

But it would mean Goku’s training meant something but Vegeta’s did not. That’s why I feel it would be extremely disappointing if only Goku’s training means something in the end.

Also Vegeta didn’t just get a power up but a move that literally counters Moro and in fact can take apart 7:3 from Moro. It just seems strange to have him have that ability of separating two characters and not have him use it

If Goku and Vegeta team up it would mean nothing is wasted in the arc

And I think Moro disappearing and saying to Goku your power still won’t be enough wouldn’t have the same ring to it. I do think UI will be enough just with a little assistance.

Vegeta did achieve something, he restored the namekians (redeeming himself) and all the energy Moro had stolen was returned back to their rightful owners. Right now he can't touch Moro, he should be just as out of his league as in every other arc where he was left out of the final fight.

I agree that it would be lackluster if that was all he accomplished (althought not small fries at all), but I feel one of them has to get the axe in order to keep the narrative fresh.
We already got the ToP to see them teaming up after the divine trump card failed, against Broly too. And UI has just been built up to a point where Goku should have no match according to Merus' last breath. He trained Goku and defeated Moro, so I must take his statement to heart. Also, it would be OOC for Goku to let Vegeta aid him after mastering UI and seeing his friend fade away.

I'll say this, though, we have yet to see Vegeta separate a fusion. But unless Merus was full of shit, there would be no need for that if Goku masters UI. And I would hope UI doesn't run out, because the simpsons already did that , and it's time for this arc to end.