"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

This chapter made me wonder what would happen if Beerus ordered Whis to fully power up and fight him.

If I remember correctly, Whis told Merus that angles can't act without the OK of their destroyer, so I don't think they'd be erased.

[Hugo Boss]

No absorbing 7-3, no unnecessary ass pull powers.

What’s the problem with absorbing 73? Which ass pull powers?

[Grand Marshal 1]

This chapter made me wonder what would happen if Beerus ordered Whis to fully power up and fight him.

If I remember correctly, Whis told Merus that angles can't act without the OK of their destroyer, so I don't think they'd be erased.

I mean, from a out-of-universe standpoint, since the Angel is a neutral Attendant to the GoD, I think the Destroyers have every right to bypass said law since they are chosen by the Omni king to fill that role.

But Merus, an angel Trainee with orders to monitor and learn from the mortals, would def count as a violator.

I imagine it like a teacher telling a kid to leave the class during lesson, with no penalties received whatsoever, but if a kid doesn't enter class on its own, they get some form of punishment.

Although the GoD being the 'teacher' figure is pretty much titular.

[Galan007]

GP stated that maintaining neutrality is the one law that all Angels must abide by... But I can also follow the logic that a Destroyer's order can essentially override that law, given that serving a Destroyer's every whim is one of the Angels' primary functions.

But in the same vein, where does it stop? I mean, could Beerus conceivably order Whis to kill Moro, without Whis subsequently being erased for violating the Angel Code?

[DiscountDabi]

No absorbing 7-3, no unnecessary ass pull powers.

What’s the problem with absorbing 73? Which ass pull powers?

The fact that the moment Vegeta gave Moro trouble with his magic he just threw it away and took 7-3’s he hasn’t used his magic in a fighting sense in a long time, and now that Merus sealed his copy ability its seen as a “Yes that ability is finally gone” even though his magic has basically been forgotten.

Lets be honest, Vegeta beat moro. Toyotaro just replaced him with a Cell Faced Generic Variant.

[goku the krump dancer]

Aside from Merus literally be a talking plot device, I really liked this chapter.

On the whole I think Moro was pretty fun to watch, I mean, save from Freeza and maybe Vegeta, how many villains actually have any sort of real "personality" outside of "Bwahaha I'm evil"? I think what Moro was missing is that Toriyama charm that allows rather one noted characters like Daimao and Cell to be overall fun to watch, granted that's subjective in of itself but personally I don''t think Moro's formula is all that different from Boo's honestly ( as far as constant random power ups to keep the threat up ), though now that I think about it, I do wish more was done with the whole Boo/Daikaoshin thing.

Black and Zamasu? Even Fat Buu who was more of a misguided child than evil and Kid Buu was closer to a force of nature.

And even Moro does pretty much everything he does because "Bwahaha I'm evil". He doesn't have any other personality other than being an evil wizard who eats planets. Moro is basically a walking Dragon Ball villain checklist with no irony.

Zamasu was just all Freeza and Vegeta's vanity cranked up to 11, his whole supposed morally gray shtick is a way to grab easy heat from viewers, personally I had a hard time buying any sort of inner turmoil, a lot of what made him who he is felt forced to me which is partly why i'm not a fan.

Being a "Force of Nature" isn't really a personality trait either, Kid Boo is my favorite incarnation of the character because I like the mindless murder machine thing but that doesn't mean he has much of the way of personality but he does have a charm to him that makes him fun to watch, with the zaney goofy antics.

Fat Boo probably is them most interesting because he was literally able to be convinced that killing was wrong simply by having someone present the idea to him, witch led to the evil inside of swelling to the point where he forced himself out and ultimately assimilating the now "Good" Boo into himself but I don't see how that was any less random than Moro eating 7-3.

[HeroR]

Aside from Merus literally be a talking plot device, I really liked this chapter.

On the whole I think Moro was pretty fun to watch, I mean, save from Freeza and maybe Vegeta, how many villains actually have any sort of real "personality" outside of "Bwahaha I'm evil"? I think what Moro was missing is that Toriyama charm that allows rather one noted characters like Daimao and Cell to be overall fun to watch, granted that's subjective in of itself but personally I don''t think Moro's formula is all that different from Boo's honestly ( as far as constant random power ups to keep the threat up ), though now that I think about it, I do wish more was done with the whole Boo/Daikaoshin thing.

Black and Zamasu? Even Fat Buu who was more of a misguided child than evil and Kid Buu was closer to a force of nature.

And even Moro does pretty much everything he does because "Bwahaha I'm evil". He doesn't have any other personality other than being an evil wizard who eats planets. Moro is basically a walking Dragon Ball villain checklist with no irony.

Zamasu was just all Freeza and Vegeta's vanity cranked up to 11, his whole supposed morally gray shtick is a way to grab easy heat from viewers, personally I had a hard time buying any sort of inner turmoil, a lot of what made him who he is felt forced to me which is partly why i'm not a fan.

Being a "Force of Nature" isn't really a personality trait either, Kid Boo is my favorite incarnation of the character because I like the mindless murder machine thing but that doesn't mean he has much of the way of personality but he does have a charm to him that makes him fun to watch, with the zaney goofy antics.

Fat Boo probably is them most interesting because he was literally able to be convinced that killing was wrong simply by having someone present the idea to him, witch led to the evil inside of swelling to the point where he forced himself out and ultimately assimilating the now "Good" Boo into himself but I don't see how that was any less random than Moro eating 7-3.

He was more than that since unlike most villains he didn't see himself as the villain or evil. The most he would admit to was that his actions were evil, but it were all for a good caused. Frieza nor any other villain in Dragon Ball up until him didn't try to justify their actions or pretend what they were doing was good. They were evil, proclaimed themselves as evil, and was proud of it.

He also wasn't supposed to be 'morally grey'. He was presented as someone who was a self-righteous that we as the audience wasn't supposed to cheer for even if he made some good points. A good example of this in another anime is Light from Death Note. If you read the author's view of Light, he calls Light evil and doesn't present his action as morally grey, especially when he starts killing innocent people who were closed to revealing his identity as soon as Episode 2 or 3. Instead, only Light and his crazy followers see him as good.

It's fine not to be a fan of Zamasu, but the fact is he wasn't 'Bwahaha I'm evil' as you put it.

Force of nature is a personality trait because Kid Buu didn't really have a personality. He had no pride to take advantage of, didn't care about being the strongest or a good fight, he just wanted to destroy everything because that's his nature. The only different is that he had a little more brains than a tornado.

Who said Buu being random was a good thing? People do have issues with how Super Buu could randomly absorbed people, especially with how Toriyama tried to retcon it as something he could always do, although Shin was clearly shocked when Super Buu did it and it's odd that he never thought to warn anyone that Buu could do this despite all the other warnings he gave about Buu.

However, Buu could be slightly forgiven since Toriyama is known for writing out of his ass, so random shit with very little explanation will happened. Toyo doesn't have such an excuse since by all accounts, he not only plans ahead to a degree, but he has an entire month to write each chapter compared to Toriyama's one week. So him taking a page from one of Toriyama's asspulls isn't something he should do.

[SupremeKai25]

Aside from Merus literally be a talking plot device, I really liked this chapter.

On the whole I think Moro was pretty fun to watch, I mean, save from Freeza and maybe Vegeta, how many villains actually have any sort of real "personality" outside of "Bwahaha I'm evil"? I think what Moro was missing is that Toriyama charm that allows rather one noted characters like Daimao and Cell to be overall fun to watch, granted that's subjective in of itself but personally I don''t think Moro's formula is all that different from Boo's honestly ( as far as constant random power ups to keep the threat up ), though now that I think about it, I do wish more was done with the whole Boo/Daikaoshin thing.

Black and Zamasu? Even Fat Buu who was more of a misguided child than evil and Kid Buu was closer to a force of nature.

And even Moro does pretty much everything he does because "Bwahaha I'm evil". He doesn't have any other personality other than being an evil wizard who eats planets. Moro is basically a walking Dragon Ball villain checklist with no irony.

Zamasu was just all Freeza and Vegeta's vanity cranked up to 11, his whole supposed morally gray shtick is a way to grab easy heat from viewers, personally I had a hard time buying any sort of inner turmoil, a lot of what made him who he is felt forced to me which is partly why i'm not a fan.

Being a "Force of Nature" isn't really a personality trait either, Kid Boo is my favorite incarnation of the character because I like the mindless murder machine thing but that doesn't mean he has much of the way of personality but he does have a charm to him that makes him fun to watch, with the zaney goofy antics.

Fat Boo probably is them most interesting because he was literally able to be convinced that killing was wrong simply by having someone present the idea to him, witch led to the evil inside of swelling to the point where he forced himself out and ultimately assimilating the now "Good" Boo into himself but I don't see how that was any less random than Moro eating 7-3.

The vast majority of villains in fiction are very vain and arrogant (in fact I can't think of any humble villain). To this day Zamasu remains the deepest and most complex villain in all of Dragon Ball.

[GodVegetto91]

This chapter made me wonder what would happen if Beerus ordered Whis to fully power up and fight him.

If Whis obliged, would he still be erased(even though he was just following the orders of his Destroyer), or is a Destroyer's order able to override the one law of the Angel Code?

...or would Whis just refuse the order all together?

Very interesting question. That should be answered by the writers imo.

[HeroR]

Black and Zamasu? Even Fat Buu who was more of a misguided child than evil and Kid Buu was closer to a force of nature.

And even Moro does pretty much everything he does because "Bwahaha I'm evil". He doesn't have any other personality other than being an evil wizard who eats planets. Moro is basically a walking Dragon Ball villain checklist with no irony.

Zamasu was just all Freeza and Vegeta's vanity cranked up to 11, his whole supposed morally gray shtick is a way to grab easy heat from viewers, personally I had a hard time buying any sort of inner turmoil, a lot of what made him who he is felt forced to me which is partly why i'm not a fan.

Being a "Force of Nature" isn't really a personality trait either, Kid Boo is my favorite incarnation of the character because I like the mindless murder machine thing but that doesn't mean he has much of the way of personality but he does have a charm to him that makes him fun to watch, with the zaney goofy antics.

Fat Boo probably is them most interesting because he was literally able to be convinced that killing was wrong simply by having someone present the idea to him, witch led to the evil inside of swelling to the point where he forced himself out and ultimately assimilating the now "Good" Boo into himself but I don't see how that was any less random than Moro eating 7-3.

The vast majority of villains in fiction are very vain and arrogant (in fact I can't think of any humble villain). To this day Zamasu remains the deepest and most complex villain in all of Dragon Ball.

To be fair, that isn't a high water mark. Dragon Ball villains are infamously shallow.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

They better not have Moro escape again and live by the end of the arc. I already disliked how they wrote Merus's sacrifice(even as someone who liked him) but if Moro lives or is allowed to escape again I'm gonna kick something.

Also, wouldn't that require MUI Goku to be utterly incompetent? Like to not kill Moro or at least try?

[Grand Marshal 1]

They better not have Moro escape again and live by the end of the arc. I already disliked how they wrote Merus's sacrifice(even as someone who liked him) but if Moro lives or is allowed to escape again I'm gonna kick something.

Also, wouldn't that require MUI Goku to be utterly incompetent? Like to not kill Moro or at least try?

I think it's possible that 7-3 will survive, but Moro has done way too much to escape death again. He escaped Daikaioshin before. He is dying this time.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

They better not have Moro escape again and live by the end of the arc. I already disliked how they wrote Merus's sacrifice(even as someone who liked him) but if Moro lives or is allowed to escape again I'm gonna kick something.

Also, wouldn't that require MUI Goku to be utterly incompetent? Like to not kill Moro or at least try?

I think it's possible that 7-3 will survive, but Moro has done way too much to escape death again. He escaped Daikaioshin before. He is dying this time.

Moro is too dangerous to be allowed to slip through the cracks. If he lives, everyone will get fucked. Him managing to slip away and find an escape would ruin the saga for me completely, as Merus's badly written sacrifice and reactions to it made it hard for me to like the arc.

[The Undying]

And it does adress the point you made, you say that we got a lot of build up simply because the narrative went "Hey audience, he's gonna sacrifice himself",

Not only did I not say that, I specifically said otherwise.

So, again, address what you're quoting. Address the fact that Merus's hidden strength was a talking point among the arc's main cast. Address the story making the audience question why it was hidden in the first place. Address Whis explaining that Angels are duty-bound to maintain neutrality, address Merus already getting established to have been the least neutral Angel character because of his time spent within the Galactic Patrol's ranks, then address the part where he feels helpless after seeing everyone get stomped and obviously wanting to help, which is exactly how the manga demonstrates his turmoil as a character with conflicting objectives.

None of these things outright say Merus is gonna sacrifice himself, but they lead into Merus sacrificing himself. Because that's what build-up is. Because that's what Toyotaro spent the better part of an entire story arc setting up with nearly every chapter.

Read what you're quoting before you quote it. Better yet, just pay attention to the narrative.

Lets be honest, Vegeta beat moro. Toyotaro just replaced him with a Cell Faced Generic Variant.

I think a bigger problem is his whole demeanor following the absorption of Seven Three. I liked him more when he wasn't gloating about hijacked abilities, which does come across as very Cell-lite.

One might counter that the comparison to Cell is surface level, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but that's my whole point. He's just a shallow Cell clone now without Cell's more interesting characteristics.

[Kanassa]

Not only did I not say that, I specifically said otherwise.

So, again, address what you're quoting. Address the fact that Merus's hidden strength was a talking point among the arc's main cast. Address the story making the audience question why it was hidden in the first place. Address Whis explaining that Angels are duty-bound to be neutral, address Merus already being established to have been the least neutral Angel character by far because of his time spent within the Galactic Patrol's ranks, then address the part where he feels completely helpless after seeing everyone get stomped and obviously wanting to help, which is how the manga demonstrates his turmoil as a character with conflicting objectives.

None of these things outright say Merus is gonna sacrifice himself, but they lead into Merus sacrificing himself. Because that's what build-up is. Because that's what Toyotaro has spent the better part of an entire story arc setting up with nearly every chapter.

Read what you're quoting before you quote it. Better yet, just pay attention to the narrative.

I did address those points. I'm starting to wonder why you're quoting me if you're not gonna bother to read my post or address it.

[DevilKing99]

They better not have Moro escape again and live by the end of the arc. I already disliked how they wrote Merus's sacrifice(even as someone who liked him) but if Moro lives or is allowed to escape again I'm gonna kick something.

Also, wouldn't that require MUI Goku to be utterly incompetent? Like to not kill Moro or at least try?

Moro being alive anywhere would lower the mortal level, don't know how you can keep a character like him alive.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

They better not have Moro escape again and live by the end of the arc. I already disliked how they wrote Merus's sacrifice(even as someone who liked him) but if Moro lives or is allowed to escape again I'm gonna kick something.

Also, wouldn't that require MUI Goku to be utterly incompetent? Like to not kill Moro or at least try?

Moro being alive anywhere would lower the mortal level, don't know how you can keep a character like him alive.

Freeza is alive....

[DevilKing99]

They better not have Moro escape again and live by the end of the arc. I already disliked how they wrote Merus's sacrifice(even as someone who liked him) but if Moro lives or is allowed to escape again I'm gonna kick something.

Also, wouldn't that require MUI Goku to be utterly incompetent? Like to not kill Moro or at least try?

Moro being alive anywhere would lower the mortal level, don't know how you can keep a character like him alive.

Freeza is alive....

Freeza at least does business with people and wants to rule stuff and not just destroy it.

But if Moro does survive, I wonder where he will go through?

[Koitsukai]

I disagree that Goku and Merus had no relationship. The format of the manga might not be ideal to show it in it's full glory, but they did spend 3 or 6 months training together in a ROSAT. We can whine about not getting more panels about them, but not about them NOT having a bond. To be fair, I prefer it this way, if the manga happened to have many panels showing Goku and Merus laughing and watching Netflix, this arc would be even longer.

GP stated that maintaining neutrality is the one law that all Angels must abide by... But I can also follow the logic that a Destroyer's order can essentially override that law, given that serving a Destroyer's every whim is one of the Angels' primary functions.

But in the same vein, where does it stop? I mean, could Beerus conceivably order Whis to kill Moro, without Whis subsequently being erased for violating the Angel Code?

I think it stops when Whis intervenes because HE wants to. As in, having free will.

Think about it this way, if Beerus fights Moro and loses, and to save the universe from him he calls Whis for help, he would be obliged to act. But if Whis were to act on his own, jumping in to save Beerus, then he might die. Or, if Whis rewinded time in RoF without Beerus' permission.

[Skar]

Moro being alive anywhere would lower the mortal level, don't know how you can keep a character like him alive.

I think mortal level was only relevant for the previous arc and won't ever be brought up again. Beerus went back to his lazy self and wasn't concerned that Moro is cleaning out what few planets they had left in U7. I assumed he would care in the interest of self-preservation at least for when GP or Zeno checked on them. If he did care about maintaining his universe's mortal level, this arc would've been very short .