"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

I still don't see what was lacking in how the relationship of Goku and Merus was portrayed. Seriously, what else do you guys think we should've gotten? aside of more training, which would've been redundant, would've slowed down the arc even more, not to mention spoiler alert.

Goku bonds with people through fighting, he fought alongside Merus before, he fought him on the Galactic Patrol ship, and then he spent months with him, who was also behaving as a mentor and teaching him the most powerful technique there is. Then this little fella jumps in to save him from Moro, and sacrifices himself in order to give him the final push to achieve UI. Why would Goku not suffer after seeing this?

---

On another note, The Grand Priest said to Whis, when he offered himself to deal with Merus, that he didn't want to lose an angel, and it was he who sent Merus to U7. And Beerus let him die, so could this be a set up for Beerus getting into trouble? like big trouble?

[emperior]

Are we sure Merus is completely Toyo’s OC? The one thing we know that Toriyama came up for this arc was the Merus was an Angel. Perhaps everything else about Merus is all Toyo but at the very least I don’t think we can say that for certain.

Considering how Toriyama came up with the whole “Merus is an Angel” I would bet he also was the one who wrote that Merus would teach Goku Ultra Instinct and that his sacrifice would then be the trigger for Goku to master it.

Or maybe that was all a collaborative effort between Toriyama and Toyotaro, but if I remember correctly Toyotaro himself credited Toriyama with coming up with a twist for Merus and for other related developments, and it would make sense if this was all mostly Toriyama’s idea because why would he say “yeah Merus is an Angel” without any further motivation? For sure he was the one who decided that Angels vanish when fighting for real, so he surely must have also written exactly why and how Merus would break the Angelic law, and then Toyotaro filled in all the gaps.

[DevilKing99]

I still don't see what was lacking in how the relationship of Goku and Merus was portrayed. Seriously, what else do you guys think we should've gotten? aside of more training, which would've been redundant, would've slowed down the arc even more, not to mention spoiler alert.

Goku bonds with people through fighting, he fought alongside Merus before, he fought him on the Galactic Patrol ship, and then he spent months with him, who was also behaving as a mentor and teaching him the most powerful technique there is. Then this little fella jumps in to save him from Moro, and sacrifices himself in order to give him the final push to achieve UI. Why would Goku not suffer after seeing this?

---

On another note, The Grand Priest said to Whis, when he offered himself to deal with Merus, that he didn't want to lose an angel, and it was he who sent Merus to U7. And Beerus let him die, so could this be a set up for Beerus getting into trouble? like big trouble?

Nothing is going to change the status quo the same thing was said about every other arc.

This hype around merus death is completely unwarranted, Vegeta and Goku caused everybody on earth to die besides a couple of there friends during rof and nobody cared.

Hell, Kid Buu blew up Vegeta and Goku's kid and the only Vegeta reacted, there was a gag scene with old kai and Goku right after it.

Merus really does seem like an oc character.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It's narrative suicide to think Vegeta would out due Goku.

People didn't say that before the fight between Vegeta and Moro. Because the story was setting up for bigger role from Vegeta

And to make it worse, Merus’ death is treated with more emotional weight than Future Trunks’ timeline being erased. Heck, Goku is more distressed about Merus dying than Future Trunks was over his mother‘a murder and his timeline being erased. So you have this disconnect where every other emotional moment in the Super manga is treated like a footnote, including U6 being erased and the deaths of several fan-favorite characters, but Toyo’s personal OC gets to be mourned and honored to the point that Goku mimicked his rage pose on Namek is just.....not right for the lack of better words.

Even if the manga hasn't spent several pages exploring the relationship between Goku and Merus, it's easy to imagine why Goku got so attached to him. That's how it is with all the new strong guys he met, in which case the two spent 6 months together. Merus is a nice guy with a good heart, obviously Goku would feel his death. Trunks' context was different

[Miracles]

It's narrative suicide to think Vegeta would out due Goku.

People didn't say that before the fight between Vegeta and Moro. Because the story was setting up for bigger role from Vegeta

The only roles the story gave Vegeta was to counter Moro's absorption. As well as to atone for his Namekian sins. He fulfilled them.

[CashmanX]

Wait, if Moro copied Vegeta's abilities

Spoiler:

doesn't that mean he knows instant movement too?

[Psajdak]

Wait, if Moro copied Vegeta's abilities

Spoiler:

doesn't that mean he knows instant movement too?

It's possible, although teleportation wasn't a big deal for a while now, and most opponents were able to learn it just by seeing it.

In battle, characters are now usually fast enough to keep up with teleporting opponents just fine.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Comparing Vegeta “talking too much” and letting Moro get away is the same as what happened with Perfect Cell is just ridiculous. It’s only the fandom that faults Vegeta for talking too much NOT the narrative. In the Cell arc Vegeta’s decisions In that fight were directly responsible for Perfect Cell. The dialogue here was Toyo just fleshing out the chapter.

People also keep forgetting Vegeta’s words to Moro about not being able to fight with his own power that he can only fight by stealing power from others. Which is exactly what Moro did to beat Vegeta.


Also saying Vegeta’s role is done is just as stupid as people who said he was definitely going to beat the main villain this time. The arc isn’t over yet. And again Vegeta still has a move that can separate 7:3 from Moro which they still may need to use. People need to stop jumping to conclusions based on the ending of every chapter.

Hell last month everyone was so sure Merus was going to kill Moro and were saying it was too predictable.

Same results, both times Vegeta fights was used as set up for the villain to grow stronger so that Goku can fight after, how it lead to that conclusion doesn't matter when the results are the same and Vegeta role was just to make the villain stronger

And Vegeta doing anything out of the norm of DBS is over in general. He is going to do the same as what he did against Zamasu or Jiren or Frieza after Goku had fought with them, pick up the scrapes from the floor after Goku had a back and forward fight with them, burns out cause of some backfire with the power he is using or gets cheap shot, which then would lead Vegeta to come in and do something against a broken down enemy.

And it was predictable, Merus ain't just going to come in and win, hell everyone I talked too know Merus was their to distract Moro for Goku to recover so that he can either Moro again.

Sure everyone knew Merus was just there to distract Moro when everyone was practically saying something different last month lol

You can go back and read the many replies in this thread that contradict what you are saying. It was the same on Twitter too people complaining that Merus an Angel was going to solve the situation instead of the main characters


I almost guarantee you that Vegeta’s role isn’t over yet and that it will most likely be a joint effort of UI and Spirit Fission. Again Goku failed the first time too with his new “power up” and is now getting a second chance but that is being ignored.


Also Vegeta didn’t make the villain “stronger” the only thing stealing spirit fission from Vegeta did was to write in that Goku & Vegeta can’t fuse which they probably weren’t planning to use anyway this arc. Stealing Vegeta’s abilities isn’t what made Moro more of a threat it was eating 7:3. Which in the end only proved Vegeta’s point.


Anyways I wish people would stop complaining about things that haven’t actually happened yet. You can say you know it’s going to happen exactly like this all you want but the fact is you don’t know until it does. You could be wrong and so could I. But criticizing something that hasn’t actually happened is counter productive

Bro it was obvious Merus was their to distract when he wasn't in full angel mode.

Vegeta role is to pick up the scraps after Goku starts to overpower an enemy but fades away, just like Zamasu, Jiren, Frieza. Nothing new or out of the ordinary.

Vegeta did make him stronger, as I said, how they lead up to it doesn't matter to the overall conclusion cause they used Vegeta is set up bait for Goku to have his moment against a stronger foe.

Buddy I can predict 3 things right now and I got a 99% chance of being correct lol that how predictable this whole show is

[FishermanJohnWest]

Right...

I can't wait for Vegeta to steal this arc from Goku.

[Ziegander]

Look, I like Vegeta as much as the next guy, and I was thoroughly insulted by the way Toyo pulled a bullshit bait and switch on the audience with how he built Vegeta's training up for months like it was going to mean something only for him to use it and then Moro just get even stronger than ever before and one-shot Vegeta like he was nothing.

But...

Why does anyone honestly believe Vegeta is going to de-fuse Moro and 7-3 at this point? What would even be the point? Goku is going to activate "mastered" Ultra Instinct (I put "mastered" in quotes because Goku is not actually going to have mastered it yet, in the sense that mastered implies he knows how to and can do it at will). Even if Merus hadn't sealed Moro's copy techniques, MUI Goku ought to have been more than enough to handle 7-Moro-3, but you never know. What if Moro had been able to grab MUI Goku's neck? I think the implication there is that not only did Merus know Goku still hadn't mastered UI yet so he'd need one last push to activate it's purest state, I think Merus also just wanted to seal Moro's copying ability just in fucking case. We don't know if Moro could use it to copy MUI, the fandom's been talking about that for a while, actually. Maybe Merus wasn't so sure Moro couldn't just copy it either, so better safe than sorry. He did refer to the ability as dangerous.

But here's my point. Even with the copy ability, MUI Goku should stomp Moro, right? Without it, it doesn't truly negatively impact Moro's overall "battle power" to put it into Dragon Ball terms, but he can no longer regenerate which makes MUI Goku's job even easier. What would the narrative point of Vegeta de-fusing Moro and 7-3 even serve? 7-3's powers are already completely irrelevant. Hell, if anything, removing 7-3 could make the situation potentially worse, because while Merus has sealed Moro's access to those powers, whose to say if Vegeta defused them, that 7-3's crystals would remain shattered/sealed now that he's no longer part of Moro? Then 7-3 could potentially put hands on Vegeta or Goku's necks!

So... again, why does anyone honestly believe Vegeta is going to de-fuse Moro and 7-3 at this point? What narrative purpose do people think that's going to serve? Why would that even feel satisfying to fans of Vegeta's character?

[Psajdak]

So... again, why does anyone honestly believe Vegeta is going to de-fuse Moro and 7-3 at this point? What narrative purpose do people think that's going to serve? Why would that even feel satisfying to fans of Vegeta's character?

It is more like some people still think that Vegeta will do anything relevant again before this arc is over, and this is pretty much the best thing he can do, anyway.

[Kinokima]

Look, I like Vegeta as much as the next guy, and I was thoroughly insulted by the way Toyo pulled a bullshit bait and switch on the audience with how he built Vegeta's training up for months like it was going to mean something only for him to use it and then Moro just get even stronger than ever before and one-shot Vegeta like he was nothing.

But...

Why does anyone honestly believe Vegeta is going to de-fuse Moro and 7-3 at this point? What would even be the point? Goku is going to activate "mastered" Ultra Instinct (I put "mastered" in quotes because Goku is not actually going to have mastered it yet, in the sense that mastered implies he knows how to and can do it at will). Even if Merus hadn't sealed Moro's copy techniques, MUI Goku ought to have been more than enough to handle 7-Moro-3, but you never know. What if Moro had been able to grab MUI Goku's neck? I think the implication there is that not only did Merus know Goku still hadn't mastered UI yet so he'd need one last push to activate it's purest state, I think Merus also just wanted to seal Moro's copying ability just in fucking case. We don't know if Moro could use it to copy MUI, the fandom's been talking about that for a while, actually. Maybe Merus wasn't so sure Moro couldn't just copy it either, so better safe than sorry. He did refer to the ability as dangerous.

But here's my point. Even with the copy ability, MUI Goku should stomp Moro, right? Without it, it doesn't truly negatively impact Moro's overall "battle power" to put it into Dragon Ball terms, but he can no longer regenerate which makes MUI Goku's job even easier. What would the narrative point of Vegeta de-fusing Moro and 7-3 even serve? 7-3's powers are already completely irrelevant. Hell, if anything, removing 7-3 could make the situation potentially worse, because while Merus has sealed Moro's access to those powers, whose to say if Vegeta defused them, that 7-3's crystals would remain shattered/sealed now that he's no longer part of Moro? Then 7-3 could potentially put hands on Vegeta or Goku's necks!

So... again, why does anyone honestly believe Vegeta is going to de-fuse Moro and 7-3 at this point? What narrative purpose do people think that's going to serve? Why would that even feel satisfying to fans of Vegeta's character?

Merus broke the ability for Moro to copy new powers but I assume he still has all the powers he copied before which made him pretty much untouchable. I also don’t see why he wouldn’t be able to regenerate. He should still have Piccolo’s powers since 7:3 who copied Piccolo is still a part of him. They still may need to split 7:3 from Moro to fully beat him so it would be a joint effort between Vegeta & Goku’s new powers.


And if 7:3 is still alive after being eaten I kind of doubt he would still be on Moro’s side once separated since you know he kind of ate him alive.


And yes I think a joint effort would ultimately be more satisfying then just UI even if that means UI can’t beat Moro on it own. As I said previously both Vegeta and Goku have been fighting and failing to beat Moro continuously. So from a story perspective having them both beat Moro works better to me than just Goku with UI. And I still think Vegeta’s new power will still come into play again this arc.

[Ziegander]

And yes I think a joint effort would ultimately be more satisfying then just UI even if that means UI can’t beat Moro on it own. As I said previously both Vegeta and Goku have been fighting and failing to beat Moro continuously. So from a story perspective having them both beat Moro works better to me than just Goku with UI. And I still think Vegeta’s new power will still come into play again this arc.

Okay, so that I can understand, you want Vegeta's new power to come into play again, you would be more satisfied with a joint effort than if MUI were used to beat Moro on its own. I get that.

But do you honestly believe MUI Goku is going to have any trouble with Moro? Assuming Moro does still get to keep the powers he had before his crystals were sealed, do you honestly think MUI Goku is going to need Vegeta's help? I don't. The manga as much as said, if Goku goes MUI, then Moro stands no chance against him. And I didn't really need Merus to give it that seal of approval, I knew if Goku went MUI then Moro was toast.

But you seriously think Moro is going to pose a challenge to MUI Goku such that Vegeta's going to need to tear 7-3 out of him for MUI Goku to be able to beat him?

I just don't see that happening. I get why you would prefer that to happen, I just don't see it.

[Kinokima]

And yes I think a joint effort would ultimately be more satisfying then just UI even if that means UI can’t beat Moro on it own. As I said previously both Vegeta and Goku have been fighting and failing to beat Moro continuously. So from a story perspective having them both beat Moro works better to me than just Goku with UI. And I still think Vegeta’s new power will still come into play again this arc.

Okay, so that I can understand, you want Vegeta's new power to come into play again, you would be more satisfied with a joint effort than if MUI were used to beat Moro on its own. I get that.

But do you honestly believe MUI Goku is going to have any trouble with Moro? Assuming Moro does still get to keep the powers he had before his crystals were sealed, do you honestly think MUI Goku is going to need Vegeta's help? I don't. The manga as much as said, if Goku goes MUI, then Moro stands no chance against him. And I didn't really need Merus to give it that seal of approval, I knew if Goku went MUI then Moro was toast.

But you seriously think Moro is going to pose a challenge to MUI Goku such that Vegeta's going to need to tear 7-3 out of him for MUI Goku to be able to beat him?

I just don't see that happening. I get why you would prefer that to happen, I just don't see it.

Merus said something similar to Goku before when he went Omen against Moro the first time and he was wrong then

And yes I think UI won’t be enough on its own to fully beat Moro. I could be absolutely wrong and yes UI Goku could very well beat Moro and that will be the end. My problem is everyone knowing for sure how things are going to end when guess what you really don’t. We both could be wrong in fact.


Last month everyone swore Merus would beat Moro by sacrificing himself

The month before Vegeta would do it because he was Toyo’s absolute favorite character

This month it’s obviously UI Goku and Vegeta will never be relevant again

So please excuse me if I take fandom predictions who are so absolutely sure of how things are going to turn out every month based on how the chapter ends with a grain of salt

[Ziegander]

I'm not saying Vegeta will never be relevant again. I'm saying, if Goku pulls silver-haired UI, then Vegeta's Spirit Fission power is a moot point for this particular showdown. It's just not going to be necessary.

What I could see happening, and would honestly just be kind of equally annoying in a different way, but that's been at least half of this arc so far, just being really annoying so as to be "unexpected," I could see Goku just not pulling the silver-haired form, Merus' sacrifice as a trigger being in vain, and Goku needing Vegeta's help because he just can't figure it out still, even with all that training and effort and thought put into it from Merus.

If Goku can't properly use UI, then he'll 100% need Vegeta's help. And, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen... I'm just eager to put this arc behind me because I am pretty tired of it at this point.

[FishermanJohnWest]

It's embarrassing that Vegeta is picking up scraps in DBS after Goku gets a large piece of the cake, since it's the same old shit

But if MUI just defeats Moro and Vegeta does nothing, then Vegeta might as well give up and forget being important in DBS other then being like Piccolo and Gohan, which is nothing but side characters being involved so that people don't get sick of Goku being thrown in our face 24/7 just like heroes did.

[HeroR]

It's narrative suicide to think Vegeta would out due Goku.

People didn't say that before the fight between Vegeta and Moro. Because the story was setting up for bigger role from Vegeta

And to make it worse, Merus’ death is treated with more emotional weight than Future Trunks’ timeline being erased. Heck, Goku is more distressed about Merus dying than Future Trunks was over his mother‘a murder and his timeline being erased. So you have this disconnect where every other emotional moment in the Super manga is treated like a footnote, including U6 being erased and the deaths of several fan-favorite characters, but Toyo’s personal OC gets to be mourned and honored to the point that Goku mimicked his rage pose on Namek is just.....not right for the lack of better words.

Even if the manga hasn't spent several pages exploring the relationship between Goku and Merus, it's easy to imagine why Goku got so attached to him. That's how it is with all the new strong guys he met, in which case the two spent 6 months together. Merus is a nice guy with a good heart, obviously Goku would feel his death. Trunks' context was different

There's a major different between Goku being upset that Merus died and Toyo directly referencing Goku’s pose when Krillin died. Especially when no other tragic event in the Super manga causes this amount to grief from anyone, not even Trunks losing his mom and his entire timeline.

And I’m sorry the ‘ it's easy to imagine why Goku got so attached to him’ is an excuse for lazy storytelling. That’s like if Krillin died in the beginning of the King Piccolo, but Toriyama put none of the work to building Goku and Krillin’s relationship outside of two scenes and a flashback. Yeah, you can still infer that Goku and Krillin are closed since they spent eight months together training and Goku would be mad about his death, but that entire scene would be much more hallow and force without us seeing and feeling Goku and Krillin’s bond, which makes us the audience not only to understand Goku’s feelings, but feel with him with Krillin died.

Toyo wanted the emotional payoff, but put in almost no work into earning it.

[Venus]

I have the feeling that Vegeta is sucessfully going to separate Moro and 7:3, Moro will be killed by MUI Goku, but 7:3 maybe survives and becomes a new ally. I am probably wrong though.

[Kagari]

It's embarrassing that Vegeta is picking up scraps in DBS after Goku gets a large piece of the cake, since it's the same old shit

But if MUI just defeats Moro and Vegeta does nothing, then Vegeta might as well give up and forget being important in DBS other then being like Piccolo and Gohan, which is nothing but side characters being involved so that people don't get sick of Goku being thrown in our face 24/7 just like heroes did.

That's the secret: Vegeta always was a side character.

[Koitsukai]

Merus has trained Goku and fought Moro, so I think now his guess should be spot on. His previous miscalculation was due to not knowing Moro's full power. Now he does. Well he did, he is dead now. What other variable could he have missed? he even sealed his technique.

The only scenario I see Vegeta getting involved is if Goku doesn't unlock UI from the get go. Like the chapter starts and still can't do it, so he has to team up with a recovered Vegeta. And then he masters UI by the end of the chapter, ending with the same type of cliffhanger from the past 5 chapters: a new dude/power standing in front of Moro.

It wouldn't surprise me if they keep dragging the final fight, although it'd be hard and stupid to dismiss Merus' sacrifice and find another excuse for Goku to control his emotions.
But the setup is implying it's gonna be UI vs Moro. I really hope the power doesn't run out, it happened to Gotenks, to Vegito Blue, to ToP UI, I'm just tired of that.