Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

The gap between sign and MUI in the anime wasn't that great

SSJ to Ssj2 was far greater tbh

[Koitsukai]

17's power is something that needs to be addressed. Not just by the fandom but by Toyo, because it's so up in the air it seems like they don't even care.

His feats:
- more than a match for SS3
- strong enough to wear down Dyspo but not strong enough to ring him out (who was shown to be stronger than SS2)
- beating up 7-3(Moro's power)

He is clearly above the SS forms, probably on God level, depending on what Moro 7-3 was using he might be even stronger.

[ankokudaishogun]

The gap between sign and MUI in the anime wasn't that great

SSJ to Ssj2 was far greater tbh

in the anime, Goku went, with the 3rd Omen, from somehow managing to contrast Jiren while being forced on the defensive to completely dominate him like he was toying.

The gap was GIGANTIC

[FishermanJohnWest]

The gap between sign and MUI in the anime wasn't that great

SSJ to Ssj2 was far greater tbh

in the anime, Goku went, with the 3rd Omen, from somehow managing to contrast Jiren while being forced on the defensive to completely dominate him like he was toying.

The gap was GIGANTIC

SSj to SSj2 was better

Gohan went from losing to crushing Cell in a couple of hits, he also caught Cell destructo disk barehanded and overpowered it, and made him spit out 18

Omen to MUI isn't special in terms of performance

[UI Peter]

Nothing says it works different lol

And nothing says it works the same. This isn't a Super Saiyan transformation.

Feats says Goku got insanely stronger sine he crushed Sangabo and sanganbo is >> TOP Blue Goku based on feats against a much stronger Gohan and Piccolo and 17 and 18.

I know Blue Goku got stronger. That doesn't mean Ultra Instinct is any stronger. It also doesn't quantify to what extent. Also again nothing to say how Saganbo really compares to ToP Blue Goku.

UI is a multiplier of base like all the other transformations, not a fixed level of power. So to makes no sense to argue that current UI isn't stronger than ToP UI.

[UI Peter]

The gap between sign and MUI in the anime wasn't that great

SSJ to Ssj2 was far greater tbh

SSJ to SSJ2 is only a 2x boost.

There's no way the boost between Omen and MUI was less than that. Feats and statements say it was much bigger than that.

[FishermanJohnWest]

The gap between sign and MUI in the anime wasn't that great

SSJ to Ssj2 was far greater tbh

SSJ to SSJ2 is only a 2x boost.

There's no way the boost between Omen and MUI was less than that. Feats and statements say it was much bigger than that.

The feats are meh, he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129 but Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130, and blocking many of his hits and still kept on fighting.

Gohan domination over Cell was better honestly, dropped him in a couple of hits, caught Cell destructo disk and blew them away like Goku did to Jiren attack but Gohan was consistently more dominate, and SSj2 to SSj3 gaps is much better as well seeing how Kid Buu can crush Ssj2 Vegeta in a couple of hits alone.

Omen to MUI isn't that big of an increase

[UI Peter]

The gap between sign and MUI in the anime wasn't that great

SSJ to Ssj2 was far greater tbh

SSJ to SSJ2 is only a 2x boost.

There's no way the boost between Omen and MUI was less than that. Feats and statements say it was much bigger than that.

The feats are meh, he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129 but Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130, and blocking many of his hits and still kept on fighting.

Gohan domination over Cell was better honestly, dropped him in a couple of hits, caught Cell destructo disk and blew them away like Goku did to Jiren attack but Gohan was consistently more dominate, and SSj2 to SSj3 gaps is much better as well seeing how Kid Buu can crush Ssj2 Vegeta in a couple of hits alone.

Omen to MUI isn't that big of an increase

Jiren was clearly winning against Omen Goku in 129, what are you talking about?

Goku dominated Jiren throughout all of 130 as soon as he unlocked MUI, even after Jiren broke his own limits. Its no contest which was the bigger boost.

[FishermanJohnWest]

SSJ to SSJ2 is only a 2x boost.

There's no way the boost between Omen and MUI was less than that. Feats and statements say it was much bigger than that.

The feats are meh, he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129 but Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130, and blocking many of his hits and still kept on fighting.

Gohan domination over Cell was better honestly, dropped him in a couple of hits, caught Cell destructo disk and blew them away like Goku did to Jiren attack but Gohan was consistently more dominate, and SSj2 to SSj3 gaps is much better as well seeing how Kid Buu can crush Ssj2 Vegeta in a couple of hits alone.

Omen to MUI isn't that big of an increase

Jiren was clearly winning against Omen Goku in 129, what are you talking about?

Goku dominated Jiren throughout all of 130 as soon as he unlocked MUI, even after Jiren broke his own limits. Its no contest which was the bigger boost.

Winning but he wasn't winning by much

And not really dominated cause Jiren still kept up with MUI Goku at the start of episode 130, went punch to punch, blocked his hits etc

MUI was stronger, but it wasn't that much strong

[HeroR]

The gap between sign and MUI in the anime wasn't that great

SSJ to Ssj2 was far greater tbh

SSJ to SSJ2 is only a 2x boost.

There's no way the boost between Omen and MUI was less than that. Feats and statements say it was much bigger than that.

The feats are meh, he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129 but Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130, and blocking many of his hits and still kept on fighting.

Gohan domination over Cell was better honestly, dropped him in a couple of hits, caught Cell destructo disk and blew them away like Goku did to Jiren attack but Gohan was consistently more dominate, and SSj2 to SSj3 gaps is much better as well seeing how Kid Buu can crush Ssj2 Vegeta in a couple of hits alone.

Omen to MUI isn't that big of an increase

That is factually untrue: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=242 (dub, but the point remains)

No where in 129 does Goku beats or blitzes Jiren. At best, he stalemates with Jiren and actually almost gets blasted out of the ring, only saved because he used his Kamehameha as a shield, and then gets trap on a platform where he had to learn to go from defense to offense or else he would have lost there.

As for 130, 'Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130'. Did you watched the episode? The first opening minutes of 130 was Jiren getting his ass kicked as seen here: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=637, unless you mean 'they got into a fist clash, so that counts as going blow-to-blow', which is a stretched.

Then there is Jiren breaking his limits: https://youtu.be/DKrPeyJGw1A

Jiren's power jumped so much that Beerus took note of it, so it wasn't a small increase. And yet, Goku in time not only began to fight even with Jiren, but beat him back even before his rage boost as seen here: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=1107

So, not sure where you got that Goku was beating Jiren in 129 and they even in the beginning of 130 came from.

The feats are meh, he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129 but Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130, and blocking many of his hits and still kept on fighting.

Gohan domination over Cell was better honestly, dropped him in a couple of hits, caught Cell destructo disk and blew them away like Goku did to Jiren attack but Gohan was consistently more dominate, and SSj2 to SSj3 gaps is much better as well seeing how Kid Buu can crush Ssj2 Vegeta in a couple of hits alone.

Omen to MUI isn't that big of an increase

Jiren was clearly winning against Omen Goku in 129, what are you talking about?

Goku dominated Jiren throughout all of 130 as soon as he unlocked MUI, even after Jiren broke his own limits. Its no contest which was the bigger boost.

Winning but he wasn't winning by much

And not really dominated cause Jiren still kept up with MUI Goku at the start of episode 130, went punch to punch, blocked his hits etc

MUI was stronger, but it wasn't that much strong

No you moved the goalpost since you clearly said 'he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129', which he didn't in 129. There is no point in 129 where Goku was winning.

You also said 'Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130', he didn't. He got dominated and could barely defend himself. The best you have is the little hand-to-hand scuffled that he lost both time and Goku wasn't even trying that hard.

[FishermanJohnWest]

That is factually untrue: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=242 (dub, but the point remains)

No where in 129 does Goku beats or blitzes Jiren. At best, he stalemates with Jiren and actually almost gets blasted out of the ring, only saved because he used his Kamehameha as a shield, and then gets trap on a platform where he had to learn to go from defense to offense or else he would have lost there.

First of all, I am talking about UI Goku beating Jiren up when he mastered it -.- obviously the end of episode 129

As for 130, 'Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130'. Did you watched the episode? The first opening minutes of 130 was Jiren getting his ass kicked as seen here: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=637, unless you mean 'they got into a fist clash, so that counts as going blow-to-blow', which is a stretched.

Getting ass kicked ? Yep he was losing but to an extent of course to where Jiren isn't helpless nor is it like what Gohan did to Cell. Jiren swapping hands with Goku and blocking many of his punches, along with going fist to fist with him isn't getting stomped, he is simply losing. And it's far from a stretch cause that's what's happened on screen.

Fact is, what a SSJ to Ssj2 gap can do was way more impressive

Then there is Jiren breaking his limits: https://youtu.be/DKrPeyJGw1A

Jiren's power jumped so much that Beerus took note of it, so it wasn't a small increase. And yet, Goku in time not only began to fight even with Jiren, but beat him back even before his rage boost as seen here: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=1107

So, not sure where you got that Goku was beating Jiren in 129 and they even in the beginning of 130 came from.

He powered up -.- and ? he powered up and started to overwhelm Goku after a back and forward clash, not really a major power increase at all, went from losing in a back and forward clash to winning in a back and forward clash.

No you moved the goalpost since you clearly said 'he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129', which he didn't in 129. There is no point in 129 where Goku was winning.

Again, talking about end of episode 129 where he got MUI



Goku was trying actually as shown in here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-xhYEPZBT8

2:11

This idea that Goku isn't trying is nonsense

And Goku was winning, I wasn't denying that, but he wasn't dominating like Gohan was to Cell. Which is what the subject was about

FP to LB and Omen to MUI wasn't that big of an increase

[Skar]

FP Beerus was shown in the manga battle royal

The issue is them dumbing down enemies so they won't surpass Beerus or barely surpass him (aka Broly)

Oh yeah I forgot Beerus was already shown at full strength in the manga. I don't mind the last few antagonists still being around Beerus' power. Beerus was their benchmark since BoG so I think it makes sense the story might end when Goku finally surpasses him with a mastered and controlled UI.

[HeroR]

That is factually untrue: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=242 (dub, but the point remains)

No where in 129 does Goku beats or blitzes Jiren. At best, he stalemates with Jiren and actually almost gets blasted out of the ring, only saved because he used his Kamehameha as a shield, and then gets trap on a platform where he had to learn to go from defense to offense or else he would have lost there.

First of all, I am talking about UI Goku beating Jiren up when he mastered it -.- obviously the end of episode 129

As for 130, 'Jiren end up going blow to blow with him in the start of episode 130'. Did you watched the episode? The first opening minutes of 130 was Jiren getting his ass kicked as seen here: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=637, unless you mean 'they got into a fist clash, so that counts as going blow-to-blow', which is a stretched.

Getting ass kicked ? Yep he was losing but to an extent of course to where Jiren isn't helpless nor is it like what Gohan did to Cell. Jiren swapping hands with Goku and blocking many of his punches, along with going fist to fist with him isn't getting stomped, he is simply losing. And it's far from a stretch cause that's what's happened on screen.

Fact is, what a SSJ to Ssj2 gap can do was way more impressive

Then there is Jiren breaking his limits: https://youtu.be/DKrPeyJGw1A

Jiren's power jumped so much that Beerus took note of it, so it wasn't a small increase. And yet, Goku in time not only began to fight even with Jiren, but beat him back even before his rage boost as seen here: https://youtu.be/u22JqSAwkX0?t=1107

So, not sure where you got that Goku was beating Jiren in 129 and they even in the beginning of 130 came from.

He powered up -.- and ? he powered up and started to overwhelm Goku after a back and forward clash, not really a major power increase at all, went from losing in a back and forward clash to winning in a back and forward clash.

No you moved the goalpost since you clearly said 'he was beating and blitzing Jiren in episode 129', which he didn't in 129. There is no point in 129 where Goku was winning.

Again, talking about end of episode 129 where he got MUI



Goku was trying actually as shown in here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-xhYEPZBT8

2:11

This idea that Goku isn't trying is nonsense

And Goku was winning, I wasn't denying that, but he wasn't dominating like Gohan was to Cell. Which is what the subject was about

FP to LB and Omen to MUI wasn't that big of an increase

Except that was completed UI, not Omen. You were saying that Omen wasn't a big jumped from completed UI, so why are you talking about the end of the episode when he completed it?

Jiren couldn't even touch Goku outside of Goku parrying his blows, which he could have easily dodged as he shows. He even stopped Jiren's movements by literally putting his hand on his cheek. It wasn't even or close.

That isn't a fact, that is your opinion. Goku went from being able to do nothing against Jiren in 129 except stalemate and would have lost twice over to basically turning Jiren to Janemba and he was Super Saiyan Gogeta. Even in the beginning of 130, he was so fast that he cut Jiren's cheek before he knew what happened.

Jiren has to power up a lot to even match Goku as noted by the other characters, which for some reason you ignored. And even then, Goku got stronger and was beating Jiren even before he raged boosted. Further showing that the different between Omen and UI isn't a small amount as you claimed.

Look at Goku's face in the beginning of 130 then compare it toward the middle of 130. Goku's expression was blanked and he showed that he was fully able to dodged Jiren's attacks and even stale his movements just by putting a hand on his cheek. When Jiren powered up, Goku was struggling far more since you saw him gimmicking while blocking and dodging.

It was indeed a big increased as shown by characters' comments and how Goku easily handled Jiren in 130 to the point that even after Jiren's powered massively increased Jiren was only slightly stronger before Goku caught up again.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Except that was completed UI, not Omen. You were saying that Omen wasn't a big jumped from completed UI, so why are you talking about the end of the episode when he completed it?

Cause Jiren vs Omen wasn't that big of a difference, and I was talking about UI performance against Jiren at the end of episode 129.

Jiren couldn't even touch Goku outside of Goku parrying his blows, which he could have easily dodged as he shows. He even stopped Jiren's movements by literally putting his hand on his cheek. It wasn't even or close.

Of course he can't touch him, Jiren is fighting someone who has UI + stronger so the fact he can block and go punch to punch is enough to show the gap isn't all that major. And so what, he punched him in the face lol duh

That isn't a fact, that is your opinion. Goku went from being able to do nothing against Jiren in 129 except stalemate and would have lost twice over to basically turning Jiren to Janemba and he was Super Saiyan Gogeta. Even in the beginning of 130, he was so fast that he cut Jiren's cheek before he knew what happened.

WTF you serious ? You think it was like Janemba vs SSJ Gogeta ? Are you joking ?

Gogeta flattened Janemba and tanked him silly, and completely speed blitzed him without even being noticed and destroyed with ease and finished him completely. Jiren actually kept up with MUI Goku and blocked many of his punches and kicks, and actually went punch to punch with him, and despite how many times Goku hit him, he still kept fighting back and getting back up.

That gap ain't any where near Gogeta vs Janemba, you seriously are reaching for the stars here

Jiren has to power up a lot to even match Goku as noted by the other characters, which for some reason you ignored. And even then, Goku got stronger and was beating Jiren even before he raged boosted. Further showing that the different between Omen and UI isn't a small amount as you claimed.

Characters reacting doesn't changed their performance, their performance says it all. And how is SSj to SSJ2 small when it performed better ? Gohan dropped Cell in a couple of hits, tanked Cell punched and caught Cell destructo disk easily and blew them away lol Goku couldn't put Jiren down when he fought him at FP despite hitting him many times.

Don't go saying SSj to Ssj2 is small when it does way better

Look at Goku's face in the beginning of 130 then compare it toward the middle of 130. Goku's expression was blanked and he showed that he was fully able to dodged Jiren's attacks and even stale his movements just by putting a hand on his cheek. When Jiren powered up, Goku was struggling far more since you saw him gimmicking while blocking and dodging.

It was indeed a big increased as shown by characters' comments and how Goku easily handled Jiren in 130 to the point that even after Jiren's powered massively increased Jiren was only slightly stronger before Goku caught up again.

I just showed Goku facial expression in the start of episode 130, he is clearly trying.

Also let's get some gifs of the fight

Jiren having a scuffle


Jiren blocking punches and going punch to punch, and see Goku facials here


Blocking more hits


Goku is winning, but he ain't stomping, and he DEFINITELY ain't doing the same as Gogeta vs Janemba lmfao

[Dragon Wukong]

17's power is something that needs to be addressed. Not just by the fandom but by Toyo, because it's so up in the air it seems like they don't even care.

His feats:
- more than a match for SS3
- strong enough to wear down Dyspo but not strong enough to ring him out (who was shown to be stronger than SS2)
- beating up 7-3(Moro's power)

He is clearly above the SS forms, probably on God level, depending on what Moro 7-3 was using he might be even stronger.

IMO he's most likely just somewhere between God and SS3. Dyspo wasn't ever suggested to be all that strong (certainly not compared to Toppo or Jiren at least) and was even held back by a Super Saiyan Caulifla (who, while strong enough for Frieza to comment on, only made him struggle in his Golden form due to Kale's interference.)

I'd say SSG tier probably makes the most sense given what we've seen. Gohan seems to skirt the line of SSB and with Goku and Vegeta gone he's confirmed to be the strongest man on Earth, yet nothing seems to indicate 17 is near Gohan.

[Xeno Goku Black]

which is what UI multiplies off this Goku has gotten overall stronger.

Yeah that's the bit that's the assumption.

Bro Saganbo belted a stronger Gohan who beat Kefla, also beat 17 who was Blue level or close, Piccolo and 18. He was > Blue Goku TOP easily.

Android 17 wasn't even as strong as Gohan as he was at the ToP who himself was not as strong as Blue Goku. As we don't know how much weaker Gohan was than Blue Goku then you can't quantify much from that.

So it's obvious that Goku now >>> Goku TOP

It's obvious he's stronger, to what extent is completely unknown.

[Xeno Goku Black]

UI is a multiplier of base like all the other transformations, not a fixed level of power.

Where was that stated?

[Dragon Wukong]

UI is a multiplier of base like all the other transformations, not a fixed level of power.

Where was that stated?

It can be inferred. I wouldn't say it's a "multiplier" because that's never been stated, but it's a technique applied to Goku. If Goku gets stronger it's a pretty (99.9%) safe assumption to say it increases in strength with Goku's base form.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I’m also wondering if perhaps Piccolo’s cryptic comments are meant to indicate that UI Sign is a general, relatively static level of power as well? He praises Goku’s SSB as being stronger than before, but when asked about UI Sign, he says it’s hard to tell.

Of course, it’s a bit of a flub that the reason he gives is that he can’t sense Goku's ki, but the authorial intent is still there.

Perhaps in that respect it’s a bit like SSG being implied to be only 10x or so SSJ during the battle with Broly, instead of retaining the massive multiplier it should have had initially?

Looking at it that way, perhaps Goku’s improved SSJ/SSB just put him a lot closer to SSG/UI Sign territory, but there isn’t necessarily a multiplier from there, and Merus’s comments at the end of the most recent chapter merely point to Goku’s ability to wield UI without any stamina issues?

[BWri]

17's power is something that needs to be addressed. Not just by the fandom but by Toyo, because it's so up in the air it seems like they don't even care.

His feats:
- more than a match for SS3
- strong enough to wear down Dyspo but not strong enough to ring him out (who was shown to be stronger than SS2)
- beating up 7-3(Moro's power)

He is clearly above the SS forms, probably on God level, depending on what Moro 7-3 was using he might be even stronger.

For me it's been #18. She's all over the place in the anime and manga. It's worse with her because now we have to directly compare to #17 to scale her. For him, at least, he seems about SSG tier in the manga and SSB tier in the anime. #18 seems to be at his level in the Moro arc. I think #17 got stronger between ToP and Moro, so he's probably surpassed the the baseline SSB tier of previous arcs, specifically RoF and ToD. 18, in comparison got a massive boost. I think that's fair seeing as how they hurt Moro enough for him to compliment their strength. I almost feel like I'm downplaying them though.