"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Except most all the examples I named were examples of deaths that the Z-Fighters knew weren't permanent. Yeah, they get more upset if they truly believed someone is dead for good, but it isn't like they're emotionless bricks otherwise unless you've been watching too much Dragon Ball Abridge. Heck, even in the Saiyan Saga when Piccolo was still alive, the Z-Fighters had meltdowns when one of their own got killed to the point that Krillin went one-man army on the Sabiermen.

But they weren't shown to emotionless bricks. You can say Toyotaro failed to show them being as emotional as during some of the previous deaths we've seen but not completely devoid of emotion. I agreed that they could've been shown more emotion during these scenes in the manga. From my own perspective after seeing the characters die so many times and resurrected throughout the series, I only really feel bad for a character when their death might be permanent. Many people predicted Meerus would sacrifice himself but I didn't think I would care.

That isn't what I said nor meant. I said it was favoritism that Merus got a far more emotional sendoff compared to everyone else in the Super manga and Merus gets to joined the ranks of people Goku cares so much about that he's willing to rage. To highlight how rare this is, Goku has only raged when Krillin and Roshi died in the original manga. In the Super anime, you can add Chi-Chi and Goten, also Jiren shooting the audience which also had Krillin in it. So if you're going to have Goku have a rage out moment to a character he has known for a very short time, you have to build towards it and not stick it in the chapter you kill off the character while also quoting Android 16.

I think part of the disagreement is that you're assuming Goku cared about Meerus as much as Krillin therefore the only reasonable explanation to you is that Toyotaro must be favoring his OC. No one was arguing that nor do I think that's what Toyotaro was trying to convey. That's why I said I didn't think it was anything groundbreaking because it seemed like it was based on #16's death with both sacrificing themselves by going against their intended purpose. I agree there could've been more buildup but I think there's enough going for it that your conclusion isn't the only reasonable one.

I wasn’t talking the Super manga with ‘emotional bricks’. I was talking about the idea in general that people in Dragon Ball don’t emote about death because they have Dragon Balls. While the characters in the manga aren’t that extreme, they tend to under react to tragedies until this chapter, which goes in the other direction of feeling like an overreaction because no one cared this much before in the Super manga and it’s for an OC who had subpar development to boot.

Toyo purposely mirrored the famous pose on Namek after Krillin was killed. How else I’m supposed this read that panel? And it isn’t just based on 16, he outright copied it down to Merus’ last words, which makes the entire scene even more lame. It’s like, he couldn’t even give a character a meaningfully death without copying Dragon Ball Z.

[Dragon Wukong]

I kinda like how for the first time we get to see Goku's struggle with mastering a form after its initial trigger this time. It's implied Goku went through something similar when he first unlocked Super Saiyan.

I also quite enjoy the general consistency we've seen regarding the "trigger" for Ultra Instinct proper in the manga. The first time he achieved the silver-haired form it was after 17 "died". And now it's going to happen again because of Merus' sacrifice.

[TheSaiyanGod]

If Goku really awakens the UI against Moro, then obviously Vegeta will not be involved in the fight. They did not build this transformation to share the spotlight with another character. It is the same thing that happened in the Future Trunks arc against Merged Zamasu and against Jiren in ToP. The only way he can be relevant is if Goku weakens Moro enough for Vegeta to use the Spirit Fission

There's a major different between Goku being upset that Merus died and Toyo directly referencing Goku’s pose when Krillin died. Especially when no other tragic event in the Super manga causes this amount to grief from anyone, not even Trunks losing his mom and his entire timeline.

And I’m sorry the ‘ it's easy to imagine why Goku got so attached to him’ is an excuse for lazy storytelling. That’s like if Krillin died in the beginning of the King Piccolo, but Toriyama put none of the work to building Goku and Krillin’s relationship outside of two scenes and a flashback. Yeah, you can still infer that Goku and Krillin are closed since they spent eight months together training and Goku would be mad about his death, but that entire scene would be much more hallow and force without us seeing and feeling Goku and Krillin’s bond, which makes us the audience not only to understand Goku’s feelings, but feel with him with Krillin died.

Toyo wanted the emotional payoff, but put in almost no work into earning it.

The point is that you guys were saying that Merus' death shouldn't be a trigger for Ultra Instinct because he and Goku didn't have a strong bond. And I'm saying that it's really easy for Goku to bond with his masters. In that case it doesn't matter if Toyo showed it or not. You can say that their relationship hasn't been explored enough, but it doesn't change the fact that there's nothing wrong with Goku being angry about Merus's death, it's not OOC. And again, Trunks' context was different

And the fact that Toyo is referencing Goku's pose in Namek does not mean that the intention of the scene is to have the same emotional impact as the first transformation in SSJ

[HeroR]

If Goku really awakens the UI against Moro, then obviously Vegeta will not be involved in the fight. They did not build this transformation to share the spotlight with another character. It is the same thing that happened in the Future Trunks arc against Merged Zamasu and against Jiren in ToP. The only way he can be relevant is if Goku weakens Moro enough for Vegeta to use the Spirit Fission

There's a major different between Goku being upset that Merus died and Toyo directly referencing Goku’s pose when Krillin died. Especially when no other tragic event in the Super manga causes this amount to grief from anyone, not even Trunks losing his mom and his entire timeline.

And I’m sorry the ‘ it's easy to imagine why Goku got so attached to him’ is an excuse for lazy storytelling. That’s like if Krillin died in the beginning of the King Piccolo, but Toriyama put none of the work to building Goku and Krillin’s relationship outside of two scenes and a flashback. Yeah, you can still infer that Goku and Krillin are closed since they spent eight months together training and Goku would be mad about his death, but that entire scene would be much more hallow and force without us seeing and feeling Goku and Krillin’s bond, which makes us the audience not only to understand Goku’s feelings, but feel with him with Krillin died.

Toyo wanted the emotional payoff, but put in almost no work into earning it.

The point is that you guys were saying that Merus' death shouldn't be a trigger for Ultra Instinct because he and Goku didn't have a strong bond. And I'm saying that it's really easy for Goku to bond with his masters. In that case it doesn't matter if Toyo showed it or not. You can say that their relationship hasn't been explored enough, but it doesn't change the fact that there's nothing wrong with Goku being angry about Merus's death, it's not OOC. And again, Trunks' context was different

And the fact that Toyo is referencing Goku's pose in Namek does not mean that the intention of the scene is to have the same emotional impact as the first transformation in SSJ

It really shouldn't trigger Goku because nothing in the Super manga shows that Goku would get that upset over Merus' death, certainly nothing to warrant the Namek pose.

Yes, it matters. You can't just infer a deep bond or even a bond of understanding, especially with a character like Goku who isn't that emotional to begin with. This is the same person who didn't lose it when Buu killed his sons and when Freeza nuked the Earth that killed most of his family and friends. That and you're not explaining why Trunks was different.

Using the 21st Tournament again, do you really think Krillin and Roshi dying in the King Piccolo Saga would be half as powerful if Toriyama took all those training and bonding scenes before the tournament and stuffed it in flashbacks before he killed both characters? Yeah, you can 'infer' that Goku was closed to them giving that one was his training partner and the other was his teacher, but both scenes would feel lousy and cheap because as I keep repeating, it's emotional payoff without doing the work needed to earn it.

"And the fact that Toyo is referencing Goku's pose in Namek does not mean that the intention of the scene is to have the same emotional impact as the first transformation in SSJ"

Then why did he reference it? He could had done dozens of different things including making his own scene instead of copying a well known, course changing event from the original manga. If that wasn't his intention, why the hell is it there?

[Lionel]

Goku being given a maintainable MUI that he can operate at will is a logical step in his martial arts journey but a predictable one as well. It's not as though he wasn't already nigh unbeatable for practically everyone sans Vegeta in few rare occasions where they equaled one another. Really, these assets are only going to be aiding Goku in being made into more of a viable fighter in the realm of angels and Hakaishin.

I'm more curious to learn how Vegeta is going to be able to challenge a potential Goku with accessible MUI. Spirit Fission is an ability that he's already admitted to being disinclined from using as he would rather test his mettle in a traditional clashing of fists and might.

[Ziegander]

Goku won't be able to maintain MUI forever after this arc, nor will he be able to unleash it at will. However, he might at least retain the knowledge of how he can trigger the state - overcome a moment of extreme emotion --> activate Mastered Ultra Instinct. Of course, it's Goku, so the thought might never really occur to him.

I don't expect him to be able to just fire it up at will after this fight. Hopefully not, anyway.

Vegeta's Blue with Spirit Control is looking quite a bit stronger, actually, than Goku's Ultra Instinct Omen, at least at the moment. It's interesting. Who knows what they'll do after this arc. It's part of the reason I'd really prefer him to just get this arc over with. This ending is just a mess and the whole middle stretch was WAAAY too bloated.

[Dbzfan94]

And the fact that Toyo is referencing Goku's pose in Namek does not mean that the intention of the scene is to have the same emotional impact as the first transformation in SSJ

That's kinda the point of a reference. So if he didn't intend it, why use it?

[Magnificent Ponta]

There's a major different between Goku being upset that Merus died and Toyo directly referencing Goku’s pose when Krillin died.

And the fact that Toyo is referencing Goku's pose in Namek does not mean that the intention of the scene is to have the same emotional impact as the first transformation in SSJ

Then why did he reference it? He could had done dozens of different things including making his own scene instead of copying a well known, course changing event from the original manga. If that wasn't his intention, why the hell is it there?

That's kinda the point of a reference. So if he didn't intend it, why use it?

Before we go too far down this particular rabbit hole, it might be worth having a direct comparison up, here:



How much of a reference is this, exactly? It really doesn't look that similar, to me, whether in pose, angle, or composition generally...

[Dbzfan94]

How much of a reference is this, exactly? It really doesn't look that similar, to me, whether in pose, angle, or composition generally...

It's definitely not a one-to-one reference like a lot of what Toyotaro does, but I can see the similarities honestly.

[emperior]

The reference isn’t as blatant as some are saying it is, but it’s definitely there.

Toyotaro framed it similarly to invoke the same feelings, especially because attaining Ultra Instinct is the opposite of how Goku first went Super Saiyan (and most likely this way of achieving UI was Toriyama’s ideas) so it was a great choice to have a similar pose to then reverse the expectations and have Goku actually be very calm in front of the shock.

In fact some fans are all like “will Goku actually get mad?!” therefore this has indeed worked.

By the way, I fully expect Goku to be able to use Ultra Instinct at will in the next arc. Maybe he will first have to go through some more training to fully get the hang of it (like he said he did for Super Saiyan) and maybe he won’t be able to hold it for very long cause he won’t be able to fully control his emotions all the time, but it would be stupid if he still couldn’t use it in the next story.

It will be interesting to see what they will come up with for Vegeta. Spirit Fission couldn’t do anything against Ultra Instinct and achieving an higher level of spirit control also doesn’t seem like a way to get on that level.
Maybe Vegeta will have to swallow his pride and train to achieve UI too, or maybe he will get something as strong as UI but also very different (maybe Demons have a technique which is the opposite of UI and which Vegeta might learn?)

I would like it if they actually skipped to End of Z after this arc as things would still make sense without having to retcon stuff, and especially it’s a time where Vegeta is implied to be weaker than Goku judging by his final Kanzenban line.

[Ziegander]

I too would be completely fine with a skip to EoZ. Goku can use MUI at will, Vegeta doesn't have to try and struggle for relevance, and they can go in interesting new directions with the story.

[Magnificent Ponta]

How much of a reference is this, exactly? It really doesn't look that similar, to me, whether in pose, angle, or composition generally...

It's definitely not a one-to-one reference like a lot of what Toyotaro does, but I can see the similarities honestly.

They're both pictures of Goku's back; it would be weird if there weren't similarities. But beyond just that bare fact, the posture is different, the angle is different, the framing is different, the background is different, and the placing of the panel within the page is different. They're not that similar. If Toyotarou wanted to make the comparison direct and plain, he could've hewn much closer to the original in just about every artistic respect that there is.

I would suggest that 'similarity' being detected by fans is really in the context of the plot beat we're seeing, rather than the adoption of this or that pose as a 'reference' - Goku's just lost a companion forever, and it is implied that he's at the threshold of unfathomable power as a result. Applying that to the panel as alluding to a very general similarity in this sense is fine, but I think it's just a little bit over-the-top when some people say it's being used as a 'lazy shortcut' standing in for an emotional connection/impact, or whatever.

[Michsi]

Because Goku hate bullies who used their power to terrorized people weaker than them. Same reason he was mad at Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force despite them nearly killing his son.

Thing is, if you look at Goku's history of getting pissed. As I pointed out in another post, Goku didn't get this angry when Buu killed his son, Freeza nuked the Earth and killed most of his family and friends, U6 being erased despite being fond of Hit. So it's hard to buy that Merus would provoke the Krillin pose.

What Toyo did was just so lazily done.

This all boils down to him having a big heart.

The Buu example for instance is one of the scenes which I was referring to, meaning I felt they were just rushing through the emotional part and as a result he comes across as detached. There is a dissonance between the image of him on his knees, obviously distraught over failing to save Gohan&co, and the speed with which the story moves past that moment.

Your other examples are also ones that I don't feel captured his character fully and I was pretty dissatisfied with everyone's reaction /

Long story short- a reaction like this feels more in line with how I imagine his character to be, then the examples you brought up.

Also, it doesn't have to be Meerus' death alone. It could very well be coupled with a profound sense of failure, but I might be reading too much into it.

Except the Buu one was hardly the only example and most of them are examples from Toriyama's original manga, who should know Goku better than any of us. And this is the portrayal that is the most constant to Goku's character. He only really gets upset when people he knows for a very long time gets hurt or killed. Goku has never shown this level of emotional distressed over someone he met just a few months ago.

If Toyo took the time to actually build this bond, it maybe more believable if still suspect. Toyo didn't bother to put in the work.

Because he's never had anyone that he's just known for a couple of months die in front of him. Merus isn't just someone he's met a couple of months ago, he 's essentially been his teacher and sparring partner for all those months. Fighting is the number 1 method to get close to Goku and that's all they've been doing for months on end. Goku's basically spent almost as long as he did with Kuririn when they trained under Roshi.

But if that ain't enough, then the 16 comparison works too. It's not just about how close he was with Merus, but a accumulation of everything until that point.

Also, since you mentioned Toriyama, given that we know he checks the chapter, wouldn't this have the first thing he'd want corrected if this wasn't how thinks Goku would react? I mean, he redrew 18 to adjust her expression during the TP, but would leave this untouched?

[The Undying]

Applying that to the panel as alluding to a very general similarity in this sense is fine, but I think it's just a little bit over-the-top when some people say it's being used as a 'lazy shortcut' standing in for an emotional connection/impact, or whatever.

I agree.

As emperior and myself have clarified, that general similarity you touched on is a way of contrasting those moments and subverting expectations - which clearly worked, given a lot of the reactions on this forum, Twitter, and elsewhere. It's reframing those presumptions in a way that jives with themes that were established earlier on in the arc; particularly in Ultra Instinct being the opposite of Super Saiyan, so it's not just subversion for subversion's sake either.

Personally, I love that shit. There's a reason the Boo arc is my favorite story in all of Dragon Ball, but it's been employed everywhere else in the original run as well.

[Ziegander]

I honestly can't believe we're still spending pages arguing about how Goku couldn't have cared about Merus and his reaction is over the top and how the allusion to his Super Saiyan transformation and how equating Goku's relationship to Merus with Goku's relationship to Krillin is insulting and belittling to both Krillin and fans of original Dragon Ball, and on and on and bla and bla, bla, bla.

Good lord.

It's exhausting.

[Miracles]

In story, Goku has spent six months with Merus in life and death training. A bond coming from that wouldn't be far fetched.
In that sense, Goku's reaction to Merus erasure is quite understandable.

However, from an audience standpoint, we were not privy to that chain link being formed.
So I could understand why people don't care about it.

[GodVegetto91]

Goku being given a maintainable MUI that he can operate at will is a logical step in his martial arts journey but a predictable one as well. It's not as though he wasn't already nigh unbeatable for practically everyone sans Vegeta in few rare occasions where they equaled one another. Really, these assets are only going to be aiding Goku in being made into more of a viable fighter in the realm of angels and Hakaishin.

I'm more curious to learn how Vegeta is going to be able to challenge a potential Goku with accessible MUI. Spirit Fission is an ability that he's already admitted to being disinclined from using as he would rather test his mettle in a traditional clashing of fists and might.

Vegeta can no longer beat Goku now that he has attained Completed Ultra Instinct at will. His best hopes of ever besting Goku again would be for him to go back to Planet Yardrat and resume his Spirit Control training for as long as neccesary if he’s to surpass him again. Which I suppose he will if he’s smart and non egotistical enough.

[Ziegander]

Vegeta can no longer beat Goku now that he has attained Completed Ultra Instinct at will.

lol ok we really, really don't need to keep beating the dead horse about Vegeta beating Goku. Who even cares about that anymore? But there is literally zero evidence Goku has attained at-will, completed UI. We don't even know for sure if he's going to attain it in the next few moments (I think he will, to be clear, but hell, he might fail). I would say that Goku having failed to even properly use Sign and still needing a trigger to awaken completed UI more points toward Goku, if he attains the form again, still will not be able to go into at will from now on. I don't think he's there yet, even if he does use it to smash Moro to pieces.

His best hopes of ever besting Goku again would be for him to go back to Planet Yardrat and resume his Spirit Control training for as long as neccesary if he’s to surpass him again. Which I suppose he will if he’s smart and non egotistical enough.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect to ever see anyone visit Yardrat again, at least not for another 20 years

[DevilKing99]

Vegeta can no longer beat Goku now that he has attained Completed Ultra Instinct at will.

lol ok we really, really don't need to keep beating the dead horse about Vegeta beating Goku. Who even cares about that anymore? But there is literally zero evidence Goku has attained at-will, completed UI. We don't even know for sure if he's going to attain it in the next few moments (I think he will, to be clear, but hell, he might fail). I would say that Goku having failed to even properly use Sign and still needing a trigger to awaken completed UI more points toward Goku, if he attains the form again, still will not be able to go into at will from now on. I don't think he's there yet, even if he does use it to smash Moro to pieces.

His best hopes of ever besting Goku again would be for him to go back to Planet Yardrat and resume his Spirit Control training for as long as neccesary if he’s to surpass him again. Which I suppose he will if he’s smart and non egotistical enough.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect to ever see anyone visit Yardrat again, at least not for another 20 years

Nowadays I wouldn't be so sure that, the world of the franchise itself is more important in the modern era, they keep building it up all of the time.

They want the series to go on as long as possible which means more and more world-building.

[JulieYBM]

They should pull a 23rd Tenka'ichi Budoukai Training arc in the animated adaption to have Gokuu and Merus bond at specific training locations through time and space. That'd make their relationship more concrete than just "training in a blank space for months".