Skar wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:38 am
I hope we one day get a Kai version of DBS that is closer to Toriyama's outlines. I assume the manga is closer by virtue of being far shorter and only one writer so less time to add his own ideas. Still it would be nice if both sides worked together with Toriyama so they don't add ideas or plot threads that are never brought up again and ignored by Toriyama in future storylines. It reminds of me these dropped plot threads from the anime shared in the Interesting/Funny pictures thread.
Toriyama's outline is exactly that, an outline. If both parties stuck to it with no details added, there wouldn't be much of a story. For the USS we know that the Pride Troopers were created by Toei. Dypso, Toppo, and Jiren were made together in similar uniform with no information why. Toriyama didn't even give Dypso and Toppo personalities, Toei had to make them up. Toriyama also didn't make most of the fighters in the TOP, that was also on the Toei's staff.
Also, those aren't dropped plot threads. Freeza had big ideas but the fact is, his plans were always doomed since Zeno nor the Grand Priest wouldn't just let Freeza have any wish he wants and it isn't like Freeza could forced them since he can't speak the language of the gods. The rest were fans jumping to conclusions. The closest we have to a dropped plot was Goku saying that they wouldn't be the god's pawns forever, and it wasn't even dropped. Goku and the others don't want to be pawns to the gods and you can argued that they weren't in the TOP since the gods have to depend on them to save their asses.
Michsi wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:01 am
HeroR wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:18 am
Michsi wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:08 pm
Because he's never had anyone that he's just known for a couple of months die in front of him. Merus isn't just someone he's met a couple of months ago,
he 's essentially been his teacher and sparring partner for all those months. Fighting is the number 1 method to get close to Goku and that's all they've been doing for months on end. Goku's basically spent almost as long as he did with Kuririn when they trained under Roshi.
But if that ain't enough, then the 16 comparison works too. It's not just about how close he was with Merus, but a accumulation of everything until that point.
Also, since you mentioned Toriyama, given that we know he checks the chapter, wouldn't this have the first thing he'd want corrected if this wasn't how thinks Goku would react? I mean, he redrew 18 to adjust her expression during the TP, but would leave this untouched?
Which is nice, but the manga barely touched on this, especially compared to Goku's other teachers besides Kami. And even Kami never got Goku this distressed even with Piccolo sealed and ate him and he had to think about killing Kami to kill Piccolo.
It really doesn't. The reason 16's death works in his context is because Gohan was already emotional distressed and 16 getting killed was on him because 16 wouldn't had died if Gohan unleashed his power and killed Cell. Not to mention, 16 got an undignified death of being literally stepped on. And I honestly have issues with 16's death and that entire Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 scene in general, but despite my issues, it isn't comparable to what Toyo did.
As far as we have seen, Toriyama doesn't make that many story corrections or character changes. The only one that we know of is him making Shin less pathetic in the Future Trunks Saga. Remember, Toriyama is also the same person who approved of Toyo's version of the TOP which had Goku become a meat head who wins by getting a new form and overpowering his opponent. Not only does this characterization of Goku not match the original manga, it doesn't even match the Super manga version of Goku until that arc. Like looking at the original manga, do you really believed that Goku would say to Roshi, 'I just need more power'.
Listen, I get it. Merus wasn't a charismatic character and that's why the emotional moment falls flat for many. I agree with that, it didn't leave me that impressed either, but I can buy Goku being distressed when he literally sees someone lose their life in front him.
Everyone's personal impression of how Goku would react to such a specific situation is what determined whether or not the sacrifice works or not. Between being too emotional and too detached I'd prefer it if Toyo erred on the side of too emotional.
I always found how easily he was willing to leave the Namekians behind when it was clear they couldn't win against against Moro to rub me the wrong way.
Also, if there is one thing I believe Toriyama would very much intervene if things were not done correctly it's Goku's characterization. Especially since he is the one that was always against Goku being portrayed too softly or emotionally. Like when I said he adjusted 18 expression, I meant he corrected the emotion she was displaying and how she was reacting to Ribrianne.
I think you're missing my boarder point. If Goku was constantly more emotional in the Super manga, then fine. He wasn't. If anything, he's less emotional than the original manga, yet only became more emotional than usual when Toyo's personally made OC dies. Which is why the scene doesn't work for me and others, along with a lot of other issues. This would have been an issue even if Merus was a better written character, it would just been less annoying.
As for the bolded, we have no evidence of this, especially when we have other characters in this arc and the arcs before not acting in-character like Piccolo who said the infamous line, 'Vegeta isn't one to underestimate his opponent'. Like seriously, how did this line get past anyone? That and Toriyama isn't against Goku being portrayed too softly or overly emotional. He's against of Goku being too heroic or a 'righteous hero'. Those aren't the same as being too soft and emotional. For example, Toriyama would be against Goku saying that he fights people to protect them when he was talking to Merus in the flashback.
Also, 18 vs Ribrianne was a gag fight, which is what Toriyama usually corrects. The closest he have come to correcting an actual main story point for a character is with how Shin was original portrayed in the Future Trunks Saga.
or Ghost Nappa.
