Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[JulieYBM]

I don't see how Future Trunks is a Gary Stu (or how the term is somehow supposed to rectify the clear misogynistic and spiteful origins of the term Mary Sue). Future Trunks gets the shit kicked out of him both in the original comic and Super until he earns the right to a satisfying Power of Friendship win against Zamasu.

Goten and Present Trunks have Super Saiyan as a gag and for the sake of plot convenience. Toriyama COULD write them as being battle-weathered veterans if he wanted but he didn't want to for the sake of a gag.

The number of hoops one has to hop through to label a character a 'Mary Sue' (clearly a term rooted in misogyny) or a 'Gary Stu' ("I'm not misogynist, I'm not misogynist" I say as I shrink into a little corn cob) is mind-numbing. Tell the term to fuck off forever and just explain what (general) you mean, please.

[SupremeKai25]

Not only does that make them unbelievable prodigies, it also means they could wash anyone up to the Cell saga. As small children.

They wouldn't stand a chance against anyone from the Cell arc. Ssj is a multiplier, so multiplying weak base forms won't make much of a difference against the likes of the androids and Cell. They also couldn't hold a candle to the Saiyans, especially during the Cell games.

That would still make them able to defeat Vegeta and Frieza, as children.

There's no way around this, if Caulifla and Kale are Mary Sues, then so are Goten and Trunks. It's why the complaints about Caulifla and Kale were always stupid, Super Saiyan isn't exactly a unique milestone anymore.

[Matches Malone]

That would still make them able to defeat Vegeta and Frieza, as children.

Even if they were to fight base Vegeta from the Cell arc and 4th form Freeza, they'd still lose due to the multiplier not being enough to close the gap between them. Their base forms are simply too weak for the Ssj multiplier to make a difference, especially against Freeza.

[The Bastard.]

That would still make them able to defeat Vegeta and Frieza, as children.

Even if they were to fight base Vegeta from the Cell arc and 4th form Freeza, they'd still lose due to the multiplier not being enough to close the gap between them. Their base forms are simply too weak for the Ssj multiplier to make a difference, especially against Freeza.

They are strong enough to push 18 to get serious in the Budokai, to impress everyone around, they would toy with Freeza, but possibly lose due to his trickery anyways

[SupremeKai25]

That would still make them able to defeat Vegeta and Frieza, as children.

Even if they were to fight base Vegeta from the Cell arc and 4th form Freeza, they'd still lose due to the multiplier not being enough to close the gap between them. Their base forms are simply too weak for the Ssj multiplier to make a difference, especially against Freeza.

They wouldn't. 18 was much stronger than Saiyan sage Vegeta and Final Form Frieza, and she struggled against Goten and Trunks.

[ABED]

It mostly boils down to execution. There's no rule saying characters can't be hyper competent and pretty much a wish fulfillment character. I have seen plenty of characters writers meant to be three dimensional and they feel like cardboard.

[UI Peter]

Goten and Trunks can also be seen as Gary Stus, since they achieved Super Saiyan at like the age of 7.

Despite having access to Ssj, both Goten and Trunks have nothing to their name outside of fusion, so I don't think it applies to them. Future Trunks on the other hand has become the text book definition of a Gary Stue. He's able to fight side by side SsjB, Achieve a form of similar power, and get an attack that he had no business having, using it to destroy someone who should be completely out of his league, all possible just because.

The only Gary Stu thing F.Trunks does in Super is the Spirit Sword (which actually failed to finish off a damaged Merged Zamasu) The way he unlocks SSJ Rage was literally no different from how most of the Saiyan cast unlocked SSJ1 in Z, and at no point before unlocking it is he ever shown to fight on par with SSB (he got one-shotted by SSJ3 Goku before it).

Also, Kid Trunks and Goten (and even Gotenks) have never actually won a single fight lmao.

[Matches Malone]

The way he unlocks SSJ Rage was literally no different from how most of the Saiyan cast unlocked SSJ1 in Z.

At no point before unlocking it is he ever shown to fight on par with SSB.

I have no issue with him reaching a new form through anger, but why didn't he reach it when his own mother was killed ? that would've made more sense than reaching it because someone was talking trash to him. Another thing is the form itself, what is it exactly ?

He was fighting alongside Blue Goku after Vegeta was stabbed. Even with this "rage" form, he shouldn't be able to hold his own against and alongside such fighters.

[ABED]

It's not a Gary Stu thing, it's a run of the mill deus ex machina.

[SupremeKai25]

Goten and Trunks can also be seen as Gary Stus, since they achieved Super Saiyan at like the age of 7.

Despite having access to Ssj, both Goten and Trunks have nothing to their name outside of fusion, so I don't think it applies to them. Future Trunks on the other hand has become the text book definition of a Gary Stue. He's able to fight side by side SsjB, Achieve a form of similar power, and get an attack that he had no business having, using it to destroy someone who should be completely out of his league, all possible just because.

The only Gary Stu thing F.Trunks does in Super is the Spirit Sword (which actually failed to finish off a damaged Merged Zamasu) The way he unlocks SSJ Rage was literally no different from how most of the Saiyan cast unlocked SSJ1 in Z, and at no point before unlocking it is he ever shown to fight on par with SSB (he got one-shotted by SSJ3 Goku before it).

Also, Kid Trunks and Goten (and even Gotenks) have never actually won a single fight lmao.

Neither did Caulifla and Kale then. Despite all their hype, they only defeated a bunch of fodder. Their only real fight was against Goku, and they were soundly defeated midway in the ToP arc:



Yet despite their pathetic win count, people still call them Mary Sue.

[Matches Malone]

Neither did Caulifla and Kale then. Despite all their hype, they only defeated a bunch of fodder. Their only real fight was against Goku, and they were soundly defeated:

Yet despite their pathetic win count, people still call them Mary Sue.

Caulifla was able to unlock not one, not two, but three Ssj forms at the same time, just because she wanted to. She had no training, no knowledge of them, nothing. To make things worse, her and Kale were able to fight against someone using the power of angles, just because. A fusion between 2 nobodies was somehow able to fight someone who'd not only give Beerus a run for his money, but possibly defeat him. You can't be more of a Mary Sue than that. I give Toyotaro major credit for having her fight Mystic Gohan instead, as that makes so much more sense power wise.

[SupremeKai25]

Neither did Caulifla and Kale then. Despite all their hype, they only defeated a bunch of fodder. Their only real fight was against Goku, and they were soundly defeated:

Yet despite their pathetic win count, people still call them Mary Sue.

Caulifla was able to unlock not one, not two, but three Ssj forms at the same time, just because she wanted to. She had no training, no knowledge of them, nothing. To make things worse, her and Kale were able to fight against someone using the power of angles, just because. A fusion between 2 nobodies was somehow able to fight someone who'd not only give Beerus a run for his money, but possibly defeat him. You can't be more of a Mary Sue than that. I give Toyotaro major credit for having her fight Mystic Gohan instead, as that makes so much more sense power wise.

And Goten and Trunks unlocked Super Saiyan at a very young age despite no special training at all. They then went on to fight Android 18, who was a very powerful creature who had even more strength than the infamous Frieza.

Kefla was trash in the manga. Losing to a simpleton like Gohan? Come on.

[Matches Malone]

Goten and Trunks unlocked Super Saiyan at a very young age despite no special training at all.

They then went on to fight Android 18, who was a very powerful creature who had even more strength than the infamous Frieza.

Kefla was trash in the manga. Losing to a simpleton like Gohan? Come on.

I agree, it shouldn't have happened.

Keep in mind that 18 was fighting him (mighty mask) as if he was a normal human, she had no idea he was 2 beings, much less 2 saiyans.

It made more sense. Kefla was nothing more than a Ssj2, she had no business fighting anyone beyond Gohan's level, much less the unreachable UI.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually didn't Gotenks reach super saiyan 3 simply by observing Goku? It makes sense that Caulifla would reach new levels of power by observing and fighting Goku. Goku even told her during the Tournament how to unlock the Stressed Super Saiyan form.

Super can't be enforcing low standards when this shit already happened in the original series.

[The Bastard.]

Actually didn't Gotenks reach super saiyan 3 simply by observing Goku? It makes sense that Caulifla would reach new levels of power by observing and fighting Goku. Goku even told her during the Tournament how to unlock the Stressed Super Saiyan form.

Super can't be enforcing low standards when this shit already happened in the original series.

Exactly, people love to grasp at straws and make, frankly, extremely out of place and disingenuous comparisons.

Gotenks reached SSJ3 because he wanted, the kids reached SSJ by sparring just like Goku did as a kid with Kuririn, can you imagine Kid Goku reaching SSJ while delivering milk? Lmao .

Kaulifla is the same, she reached what she could reach all along but didn't knew it existed, she just had to discover how to do it, no difference to Goten and Trunks. People are unable to see the obvious flaws in their arguments it seems.

[The Bastard.]

Neither did Caulifla and Kale then. Despite all their hype, they only defeated a bunch of fodder. Their only real fight was against Goku, and they were soundly defeated:

Yet despite their pathetic win count, people still call them Mary Sue.

Caulifla was able to unlock not one, not two, but three Ssj forms at the same time, just because she wanted to. She had no training, no knowledge of them, nothing. To make things worse, her and Kale were able to fight against someone using the power of angles, just because. A fusion between 2 nobodies was somehow able to fight someone who'd not only give Beerus a run for his money, but possibly defeat him. You can't be more of a Mary Sue than that. I give Toyotaro major credit for having her fight Mystic Gohan instead, as that makes so much more sense power wise.

First off Goku can't beat Beerus now, even less so with that half baked UI.

Second off, can't you see the glaring parallels and similarities to Goten and Trunks who did the exactly same just because they wanted to? They reached SSJ 3 the same way as Kaulifla, by watching another monkey do it, she had it in herself all along and Goku just showed the ways, just like Gotenks, it's in your face, it's not complicated or philosophical, she's Goku if he never reached SSJ but killed Freeza, Cell without it anyways, she always had it.

If Gotenks can do it, any kid with above average strength can. Also she got destroyed by Goku, a fusion, destroyed by a single dude.

[DevilKing99]

Neither did Caulifla and Kale then. Despite all their hype, they only defeated a bunch of fodder. Their only real fight was against Goku, and they were soundly defeated:

Yet despite their pathetic win count, people still call them Mary Sue.

Caulifla was able to unlock not one, not two, but three Ssj forms at the same time, just because she wanted to. She had no training, no knowledge of them, nothing. To make things worse, her and Kale were able to fight against someone using the power of angles, just because. A fusion between 2 nobodies was somehow able to fight someone who'd not only give Beerus a run for his money, but possibly defeat him. You can't be more of a Mary Sue than that. I give Toyotaro major credit for having her fight Mystic Gohan instead, as that makes so much more sense power wise.

And Goten and Trunks unlocked Super Saiyan at a very young age despite no special training at all. They then went on to fight Android 18, who was a very powerful creature who had even more strength than the infamous Frieza.

Kefla was trash in the manga. Losing to a simpleton like Gohan? Come on.

Agreed Gotenks transformed into SSJ3 because he felt like it and Kefla didn't do anything in the manga besides lose and say that her team sucks WTF? Honestly, outside of Kale no character from U6 did anything cool at all, Hit even tried brute face his way threw Jiren wtf?

It's a huge problem in the manga is how the characters greatly lack personality and don't do anything cool,

Moro is the prime example, he has been the main focus of an arc that's been going on since 2018 and has no character at all outside of being evil.

[DevilKing99]

Neither did Caulifla and Kale then. Despite all their hype, they only defeated a bunch of fodder. Their only real fight was against Goku, and they were soundly defeated:

Yet despite their pathetic win count, people still call them Mary Sue.

Caulifla was able to unlock not one, not two, but three Ssj forms at the same time, just because she wanted to. She had no training, no knowledge of them, nothing. To make things worse, her and Kale were able to fight against someone using the power of angles, just because. A fusion between 2 nobodies was somehow able to fight someone who'd not only give Beerus a run for his money, but possibly defeat him. You can't be more of a Mary Sue than that. I give Toyotaro major credit for having her fight Mystic Gohan instead, as that makes so much more sense power wise.

First off Goku can't beat Beerus now, even less so with that half baked UI.

Second off, can't you see the glaring parallels and similarities to Goten and Trunks who did the exactly same just because they wanted to? They reached SSJ 3 the same way as Kaulifla, by watching another monkey do it, she had it in herself all along and Goku just showed the ways, just like Gotenks, it's in your face, it's not complicated or philosophical, she's Goku if he never reached SSJ but killed Freeza, Cell without it anyways, she always had it.

If Gotenks can do it, any kid with above average strength can. Also she got destroyed by Goku, a fusion, destroyed by a single dude.

And Broly went from under base form Vegeta to Freaking under SSB Gogeta level barely an hour or using Goku mastering an ability Gods can't do after millions of years training, the term sue is just used hate on female characters.

[The Bastard.]

Caulifla was able to unlock not one, not two, but three Ssj forms at the same time, just because she wanted to. She had no training, no knowledge of them, nothing. To make things worse, her and Kale were able to fight against someone using the power of angles, just because. A fusion between 2 nobodies was somehow able to fight someone who'd not only give Beerus a run for his money, but possibly defeat him. You can't be more of a Mary Sue than that. I give Toyotaro major credit for having her fight Mystic Gohan instead, as that makes so much more sense power wise.

First off Goku can't beat Beerus now, even less so with that half baked UI.

Second off, can't you see the glaring parallels and similarities to Goten and Trunks who did the exactly same just because they wanted to? They reached SSJ 3 the same way as Kaulifla, by watching another monkey do it, she had it in herself all along and Goku just showed the ways, just like Gotenks, it's in your face, it's not complicated or philosophical, she's Goku if he never reached SSJ but killed Freeza, Cell without it anyways, she always had it.

If Gotenks can do it, any kid with above average strength can. Also she got destroyed by Goku, a fusion, destroyed by a single dude.

And Broly went from under base form Vegeta to Freaking under SSB Gogeta level barely an hour or using Goku mastering an ability Gods can't do after millions of years training, the term sue is just used hate on female characters.

I disagree that is a term to hate on female characters, but I agree with you that Kale and Kaulifla are not Mary Sues, that would be Son Bra from the Multiverse fan manga for example, the U6 Sayajins are just trailing the same path that Goten and trunks created. How can someone criticize one and forget the other? The in universe reasons are there

[JulieYBM]

The term Mary Sue was literally coined by a woman trying to disparage young Star Trek fangirls who were trying to express themselves through writing fan fiction. The term is inherently used to weed out women from fandom.