DB is not better than DBZ

[ABED]

DBZ early part was a good action shonen,

What does that even mean? They’re both shonen.

Early DB was more a kodomo or a gag manga than a shonen.
DBZ is definitely an action shonen.

Shonen is a demographic, not a genre.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Vegeta technically had to "cheat" by going Oozaru, but it counts.

Wait, why is that cheating though? Its his own ability.

[MasenkoHA]

DBZ early part was a good action shonen,

What does that even mean? They’re both shonen.

Early DB was more a kodomo or a gag manga than a shonen.
DBZ is definitely an action shonen.

Again they’re both shonen. It was literally one manga that ran in a Shonen Magazine ffs.

[preds4343]

What if I told you...

That DBZ doesn't exist, and that it's just a crappy Anime change Toei did to separate DB for some unknown reason...

It's always been just DB. Read the OG Manga, or consider the "DBZ Anime" as just the continuation of the DB Anime.

[ABED]

What if I told you...

That DBZ doesn't exist, and that it's just a crappy Anime change Toei did to separate DB for some unknown reason...

It's always been just DB. Read the OG Manga, or consider the "DBZ Anime" as just the continuation of the DB Anime.

The reasons why DB became DBZ are not a mystery. It was a marketing decision to make it more popular.

[Kid Buu]

Vegeta technically had to "cheat" by going Oozaru, but it counts.

Wait, why is that cheating though? Its his own ability.

It definitely isn't. Vegeta won that fight fair and square.

Only villains Goku legetimitely beat by himself in DBZ are Nappa, Recoome, Burter, Freeza/King Cold and Yakon.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Here's my take: I don't believe the distinction between Z and the original Dragon Ball are nearly as stark as they're often made out to be, especially as the name distinction was in anime only. Tonally speaking, aside from the shift to sci-fi, there is not otherwise much difference between the Piccolo Jr->Saiyan->Freeza arcs, or, if you want to go further back, even between the three aformentioned and the Tenshinhan->King Piccolo arcs. I feel like we make these distinctions seem more drastic than they are mainly due the anime adding the "Z" at the end, and because we're so used to that split in North America. That said, with the Android/Cell arcs there was more of a shift imho, whereas the Buu arc felt like the Cell arc mixed with the original Quest for the Dragon Balls thru RR Army arcs.

Storytelling wise, I definitely favor everything from Tenshinhan to Freeza. Imho that is peak Toriyama, although Android/Cell certainly has great moments.

[Matches Malone]

Storytelling wise, I definitely favor everything from Tenshinhan to Freeza. Imho that is peak Toriyama.

I completely agree, as that period was DB at its absolute best.

[Zestanor]

The Z split was not arbitary. It was after the (at that time) longest time skip. And the ending of the 23rd TB was the end of Goku’s quest to win the TB. Goku came of age: he went home (in DB he had left home and never returned), got married, and had a son. The Saiyan arc of the Z anime was set up to be Gohan’s story. Also Goku was a space alien the whole time was a big twist.

[ABED]

I agree that it's not an arbitrary split, but they aren't two different series. It's simply that it's as good a place as any to make the split if you are planning to rebrand.

[Matches Malone]

The Z split was not arbitary.

It was actually, it was done to gain a better marketing budget, it had nothing to do with the story. Don't get me wrong, things worked out for them, it's just that they didn't plan on them to.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

The Z split was not arbitary. It was after the (at that time) longest time skip. And the ending of the 23rd TB was the end of Goku’s quest to win the TB. Goku came of age: he went home (in DB he had left home and never returned), got married, and had a son. The Saiyan arc of the Z anime was set up to be Gohan’s story. Also Goku was a space alien the whole time was a big twist.

Even so, it was still meant to be the same series. I won't argue that it wasn't the perfect place for a split, because it was. And eh...I'd say Z at that point was equally Goku and Gohan's story. Saiyan and Freeza arcs were defining character development arcs for Goku.

EDIT: also, to the time skip point, I get that you're saying 5 years was the biggest time skip to date at that point...but even so, it wasn't even the biggest time skip within the series. Between Cell and Buu, 7 years, and the between Buu and End of Z 10 years. Aside from the Saiyan heritage reveal, I'd argue that more drastic changes occurred between the latter two than between Piccolo Jr. and the Saiyan arc.

[ABED]

The Z split was not arbitary.

It was actually, it was done to gain a better marketing budget, it had nothing to do with the story. Don't get me wrong, things worked out for them, it's just that they didn't plan on them to.

The simple fact of changing titles to get a better marketing budget means that by definition, the change wasn't arbitrary. And I do think they picked the end of the 23rd TB to make the split for that purpose.

I don't care about the split, I care how some people treat the split. It's like Rotten Tomatoes. I see it's value but so many treat it as gospel and the final word and as if film or film criticism can be boiled down to a number.

[Matches Malone]

The simple fact of changing titles to get a better marketing budget means that by definition, the change wasn't arbitrary.

I do think they picked the end of the 23rd TB to make the split for that purpose.

Arbitrary in terms of the story, the change wasn't made because the story demanded it.

The new producers joined the show at the start of that arc, and came up with the idea half way through. If they joined DB during the Saiyan arc, then maybe Z would've started with Namek instead.

[ABED]

Changes weren't made to the story, just the title.

The new producers joined the show at the start of that arc, and came up with the idea half way through. If they joined DB during the Saiyan arc, then maybe Z would've started with Namek instead.

Doubtful but regardless if you could make a shit ton more money with a story just by re-branding would you not?

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

^^^That's kind of what I'm getting at too. It's fine if you value the split and always want to use it to frame how you look at the series, but the fact remains that it was still an anime-only split. It's not truly a "defining" split in the story to where it it has to be "this part of the story" vs "this part." It's still a continuation/the next arc. I think I put less stock in the split now because despite the 5-year time skip, there's just so much essential character development and so much story that happens before. For a lot of fans in the US, the split causes them to see "Z" as the true beginning, while everything before is optional/a side story, which definitely isn't the case.

I don't really care if people find the split arbitrary or not, but it's past time OG Dragon Ball was seen as the real beginning of everything and not the Saiyan saga. And I'm not necessarily saying that for anyone here, but for a large part of the fandom.

[Matches Malone]

It's past time OG Dragon Ball was seen as the real beginning of everything and not the Saiyan saga.

Toei had a real chance to make this a reality by starting Kai with DB instead of Z. The biggest problem DB faces is the companies involved with the franchise leaving it in the dust in favor of the other 3 parts (Z, GT, Super).

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

It's past time OG Dragon Ball was seen as the real beginning of everything and not the Saiyan saga.

Toei had a real chance to make this a reality by starting Kai with DB instead of Z. The biggest problem DB faces is the companies involved with the franchise leaving it in the dust in favor of the other 3 parts (Z, GT, Super).

Totally agreed. And it is a shame, as Dragon Ball has some of the best storytelling. Definitely over GT and Super. People often saying Dragon Ball "isn't as popular" in the U.S., but the main reason is likely that it didn't get the same push due to not being quite as action-oriented (although even that argument is weak because there's plenty of action to go around in OG Dragon Ball post Pilaf-arc).

[Matches Malone]

People often saying Dragon Ball "isn't as popular" in the U.S., but the main reason is likely that it didn't get the same push due to not being quite as action-oriented.

Of course it's not as popular, Funimation did everything in its power to make sure of that. Japan unfortunately aren't innocent either, as even before Kai they were pushing Z as the main product, such as with the dragon boxes.

[ABED]

People often saying Dragon Ball "isn't as popular" in the U.S., but the main reason is likely that it didn't get the same push due to not being quite as action-oriented.

Of course it's not as popular, Funimation did everything in its power to make sure of that. Japan unfortunately aren't innocent either, as even before Kai they were pushing Z as the main product, such as with the dragon boxes.

They didn't intentionally try to make something less popular. They just pushed DBZ because it was more popular.