Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[LoganForkHands73]

I already state, it's an inherently collaberative process. It's not all one person's singular vision.

Well you edited that into your comment while I was replying to it. In any case, I actually agree to an extent, but auteur theory isn't necessarily about devaluing the contributions of non-directorial roles, it's mainly about pointing out the clear thematic/stylistic throughlines that can be seen in a director's work. You can instantly tell an Edgar Wright film if you've seen one of his earlier films, for example. Some take it way too far and go full "director is god" mode, which sucks and demeans everyone else who works hard to realise a project, but on the same token, directors demonstrably falling back on the same patterns and techniques indicates that there is something to it and it's worth discussing at the very least.

I'd recommend Will Greaves' work as he brilliantly deconstructs the notion of the all-powerful director in some of his films.

The budgets during the "new Hollywood" weren't particularly high to begin with.

but historically, some movie-goers were less than happy with the way the industry started heading.

Which makes them come off as Dana Carvey's Grumpy Old Man sketch.

I get it, not everyone likes Star Wars, but why do you keep bringing up fans of the "new Hollywood"? Auteur theory is one that went from a 4 year period where out of touch studio execs gave over control to directors when the movie business was on its ass, to "the director is god and must never be questioned".

It's art and nothing is beyond questioning, even the classics.

I was responding to the tone of the Youtube video. The guy constructs this narrative that the Sacred Classic Sci-Fi Franchises(TM) only ever get unfairly criticised when those pesky "liars" want to big-up the inferior newer instalments. I was pointing out that this isn't a new phenomenon at all, and people criticise classics for all sorts of valid reasons.

[Matches Malone]

I'm pretty sure that Dragon Quest reboot is still upcoming, so who can say if the quality of it will remain consistent all the way through?

One thing I'd like to add to what I said earlier, is that DQ is based off a completed manga. This is a major benefit because the people working on it know how many episodes it'll take to adapt, where all the key moments are, and where the heavy actions scenes are. Having such knowledge going into it will allow them to spread their staff accordingly, resulting in a show with as few problems as possible. They also have a manga to use as not only a reference, but also a storyboard in some cases. That's of course on top of already having a great start with the long pre-production time.

[LoganForkHands73]

I'm pretty sure that Dragon Quest reboot is still upcoming, so who can say if the quality of it will remain consistent all the way through?

One thing I'd like to add to what I said earlier, is that DQ is based off a completed manga. This is a major benefit because the people working on it know how many episodes it'll take to adapt, where all the key moments are, and where the heavy actions scenes are. Having such knowledge going into it will allow them to spread their staff accordingly, resulting in a show with as few problems as possible. They also have a manga to use as not only a reference, but also a storyboard in some cases. That's of course on top of already having a great start with the long pre-production time.

That's true, plus I'm pretty sure there was another anime adaptation that they can probably build off. That's part of the reason why I'm cautiously optimistic about the Moro arc being adapted.

Even so, I find it a little unfair to point to an anime being produced now/aired in the future to one that was first created five years ago -- there's all sorts of reasons why Super's first few arcs and Sailor Moon Crystal were as shoddily made as they were but no one can say for sure that they would have turned out any better under the circumstances that existed in 2015.

[ABED]

I already state, it's an inherently collaberative process. It's not all one person's singular vision.

Well you edited that into your comment while I was replying to it. In any case, I actually agree to an extent, but auteur theory isn't necessarily about devaluing the contributions of non-directorial roles, it's mainly about pointing out the clear thematic/stylistic throughlines that can be seen in a director's work.

That's not exactly what it is though not altogether false either

[Matches Malone]

I find it a little unfair to point to an anime being produced now/aired in the future to one that was first created five years ago.

There's all sorts of reasons why Super's first few arcs were as shoddily made as they were. No one can say for sure that they would have turned out any better under the circumstances that existed in 2015.

The reason we're doing this is to prove to Super's fans that it was nowhere near as good as it could've. Don't get me wrong, people can like or dislike what they want, it's all subjective, the issue I have is the spreading of false information. Saying that Super is no different from the 3 original series is factually wrong. You've got people who worked on the show speaking more than once about how bad of a process it was to get through, going as far as to say Super 2.0 will not be green lit under the same conditions. You've got people like Toriyama himself saying he was constantly complaining to Toei about it. You've got Toei animation as a whole making changes to prevent another Super from happening. You've got people like Ajay who has great breakdowns and explanations about how different (and worse) it is from what came before. Despite all this proof, even from people who worked on it directly, you've still got people spreading lies about it being no different than before.

Super had great talent attached to it from the start, as well as a good budget, maybe even higher than other anime. The main issue that put it 6ft under was the lack of pre-production. If you want a great example on how important pre-production time is, look no further than Goku's fight with Beerus from EP5, and Goku's fights with Jiren from the TOP. Those fights were worked on by the same person, the difference is that in one fight he had 4 weeks or less, while in the other he had 10-12.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Everyone, please everyone stop posting to obnoxious Youtube videos to do your talking for you. That's not an argument.

I personally rarely do this, but I think it's a video worth seeing, as it says so much about modern "fans".

Or instead or just doing "watch this video", why not transcribing the argument made in the video instead (not an exact word for word)? Something like:

"Argument........
Argument........

Argument........
Argument........"

Source: [video link]

[Matches Malone]

Or instead or just doing "watch this video", why not transcribing the argument made in the video instead (not an exact word for word)? Something like:

"Argument........
Argument........

Argument........
Argument........"

Source: [video link]

I don't know if you saw the video, but the general argument is that fans nowadays are trying to ruin the reputation of classic works in order to bring up newer ones that can't stand on their own.

Another point made (if I remember correctly) is that if you have to bring something down in order to bring another thing up, maybe what you're defending isn't as good as you think. There are people who will outright lie about the original DB to justify Super's..."quality". For example, they'll say the original's fights were just as lacking as Super's...never mind the fact they were drawn by who many consider to be among the greatest mangaka alive today. Other examples include the plots of Super being no different from the original's...really ? I'm generally open to other opinions, but I don't know how seriously I can take people who say Super has anything comparable to the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

The most important point is the fact that the classics became classics for a reason. If classic DB was as...lackluster as modern DB, it wouldn't have stood the test of time, it wouldn't be gaining fans even today, and most importantly, it wouldn't be inspiring other mangaka like Oda and Kishimoto to put out equally great works. I may not have a crystal ball, but I can tell you for a fact that no author in any part of the world is going to look at modern DB for inspiration.

[ABED]

He really should've stopped at "you don't have to put something down to raise something else up." The biggest issue I have with that insipid video is the insistance that it's on its face obvious that the newer stuff isn't good. It's not obvious and not always true.

Even if modern DB were on par with classic DB, it's been around so long that naturally it's not going be seen in the same league as the classic episodes/chapter. The bloom is long since off the rose.

[Matches Malone]

Even if modern DB were on par with classic DB, it's been around so long that naturally it's not going be seen in the same league as the classic episodes/chapter.

The problem is that modern DB hasn't really gotten the chance to be on par with the original in order to make such a conclusion. The original was allowed the accepted amount of pre-production, Super wasn't. The original was based on a full manga, Super's based on bullet points written on a gum wrapper.

If Super returns, it'll at least have the benefit of being based off a complete story, Moro and whatever follows. What completely blows me away is that there are fans, including on here, who are against this. They want Super 2.0 to follow the same storytelling method of Super 1.0 with Toriyama giving them bare bones bullet points. I recognize that Toyotaro's stories aren't perfect, but at least they qualify as stories.

[ABED]

Even if modern DB were on par with classic DB, it's been around so long that naturally it's not going be seen in the same league as the classic episodes/chapter.

The problem is that modern DB hasn't really gotten the chance to be on par with the original in order to make such a conclusion. The original was allowed the accepted amount of pre-production, Super wasn't. The original was based on a full manga, Super's based on bullet points written on a gum wrapper.

If Super returns, it'll at least have the benefit of being based off a complete story, Moro and whatever follows. What completely blows me away is that there are fans, including on here, that are against this. They want Super 2.0 to follow the same storytelling method of Super 1.0 with Toriyama giving them bare bones bullet points. I recognize that Toyotaro's stories aren't perfect, but at least they qualify as stories.

It never will be because lightning in a bottle is gone. The original's success wasn't due to pre-production. It was due to Toriyama having the right idea at the right time and the anime just following his lead. Look at every great band that was around for decades, how many were making music as great as their classics at the end as they were near their beginning or prime?

Following bare bone bullet points is not a negative. Why do people keep implying that? And no duh Toyotaro's stories are stories. They are finished. Outlines aren't stories, they are thinking on paper. They are there to just serve as a helpful guide.

[Matches Malone]

Following bare bone bullet points is not a negative. Why do people keep implying that?

Because it leaves too much open. Parts of the story feel like they came from one author, while others from someone else. I guess what I'm trying to say is the bullet points by the head writer and what's written between to fill the gaps don't fit well together. I consider Zamasu to be the biggest victim of this method, as you've got a great villain stuck between Toriyama's lacking plot and Toei's lack of knowledge on how to fill the gaps.

[ABED]

Following bare bone bullet points is not a negative. Why do people keep implying that?

Because it leaves too much open. Parts of the story feel like they came from one author, while others from someone else. I guess what I'm trying to say is the bullet points by the head writer and what's written between to fill the gaps don't fit well together. I consider Zamasu to be the biggest victim of this method, as you've got a great villain stuck between Toriyama's lacking plot and Toei's lack of knowledge on how to fill the gaps.

It's an outline.

Not nearly enough people place NEARLY enough importance on the intangibles. Instead the culprit is:
- A sparse outline (a redundant term)
- Not enough lead time
- Burned out writers
- Relying to heavily on Goku

[Matches Malone]

Not nearly enough people place NEARLY enough importance on the intangibles.

What does this mean exactly ? I don't think I've come across this word before.

[ABED]

Not nearly enough people place NEARLY enough importance on the intangibles.

What does this mean exactly ? I don't think I've come across this word before.

It's the hard to define factors like timing and chemistry.

Intangibles means things you can't touch, but in this context I'm talking about the non-obvious factors.

More tangible details like lead time, more detailed outlines, etc are easier to replicate and control

[UI Peter]

Low standards have been reinforced since the start.

Dragon Ball as a story is a fairly wacky parody of 70s and 80s kung fu movies, using Journey to the West (a Chinese fairy tale not unlike the kind Disney would exploit, one usually told to little kids). Early DB in particular was so ridiculous with blatantly cartoony superdeformation and visual comedy that it was closer to a kung fu Looney Tunes than modern shōnen manga. Even as the manga got more serious, it took a long time for that dense wackiness to fade, and even as late as the Freeza arc, we were seeing kung fu space warriors dressed in 80s jazzercise uniforms with sci-fi chest armor on top— and we learned that Son Goku's species were also jazzercise hair metal monkey space pirates named after vegetables, lorded around by a devil-horned eunuch named "freezer" and his wildly flamboyant henchmen literally named after fruits, like they came out of a grocery closet in the JoJo universe. And this warlord refrigerator was so powerful he could destroy entire planets with a bored flick of his finger— and still had three more transformations beyond that.

Dragon Ball was so ridiculous that it's astounding when you actually explain it to yourself how you ever took it seriously. And the show and manga were indeed meant for elementary schoolers in Japan— that's always been its target audience, and the author of the comic has been ridiculously open about the fact he can't understand why anyone else could like it, even calling the adult fans "manchildren" and just barely acknowledging the women fans as recently as 2017.

The movies have been some of the most bareboned experiences imaginable. Some movies are quite literally 5 minutes of set up (if that) followed by 40+ minutes of fighting, roll credits.

Video games have spent the past 30+ years doing nothing but retelling the story, with scattered attempts at original stories up until the last 5 years. And these original stories are some of the most atrociously written pieces of media ever experienced. I am personally STILL in shock over how stilted Dragon Ball Z: Ultimate Tenkaichi's Hero Mode's story was. I've read fanfiction from someone deep on the autistic spectrum that had more emotional depth, more interesting plot twists, and superior cohesiveness than whatever... THAT was supposed to be. And it wasn't even the worst written original story in the games.

But what was I expecting from a series meant for little kids? I'm not this shows target audience.


But there's the rub: the version I grew up with and its evolution is trying to turn Dragon Ball into something for me. Dragon Ball in America is squarely a young adult's franchise. Dragon Ball Super, a series that many felt was overly juvenile even for Dragon Ball, was gritted up for its American release— most notably in its much stronger language.

Its characters are rewritten from their Japanese counterparts, who were already cleaned up from their manga counterparts. The American version is trying to build off the older dub version of the characters as well as take notes from Dragon Ball Z Abridged, when Super was building off the manga rather than the older anime.

Remember those space jazzercise kung fu pirates I mentioned earlier? Many Americans don't even realize that's what they are, instead turning them into space samurai with exaggeratedly brutal seriousness. But that's only because that's the version we received. We find it harder to notice the dense wackiness because so much of it was scrubbed out to remarket the series for an entirely different demographic, many of whom would take an ax to the idea that Dragon Ball is for kids at all.

Many of them want to see Dragon Ball turned into a Japanese MCU, with its games closer to Marvel vs. Capcom and an anime-ized Witcher. What they get are games that often lack polish and feature dumbed down stories with the dialogue and presentation of a show for preschoolers if it was socially acceptable for characters to swear on Nick Jr. and YouTube Kids.


There are essentially two different franchises both going by the name "Dragon Ball" existing concurrently, but the version that takes precedence is the one aimed at Japanese schoolboys. Western fans literally HAVE to accept lower standards because our standards are not in line with the actual direction and nature of the series.
Could that nature be different? Always, but things haven't developed in that direction and the only thing you'd accomplish would be to shift the show to target the other audience, now forcing the first demographic to shift their expectations. You've just started a dance.

Now, you might think that the ideal solution would be to split the series in two and let both demographics have their own respective versions— one being the kiddy kung fu cartoon about Carrot Wukong and the other being the Japanese MCU led by the writers for Team Four Star and Dragon Ball Multiverse. And maybe that COULD work. But it also feels like a copout, like a single foreign fandom refuses to accept that the object of their affection isn't actually theirs no matter how many YouTube breakdowns, memes, and vs. battles they create or how many lines from an archaic unfaithful dub they rewatch and thumbs up.

That's what this whole thing really feel like to me, especially the part about so many Dragon Ball fans who don't actually like what Dragon Ball is but rather what they wish it could be (no pun intended).

This is precisely the kind of attitude that I'm speaking put against, and your post is filled with misinformation smh.

1. Just because something is for children doesn't mean it should be held to lower standards. This goes without saying, especially when there's many fiction made for the youth (especially from Japan and increasingly so from the West) that's of high quality.

2. Just because something is a parody or deliberately goofy/silly doesn't mean it should be held to lower standards either. That's just another bad excuse for bad writing & low quality smh. Not taking itself too seriously or even at all is no excuse for producing crap. And there's no way media like the 90s Bardock & Trunks specials were created with the attitude for the series you allege the Japanese have.

3. "and the author of the comic has been ridiculously open about the fact he can't understand why anyone else could like it, even calling the adult fans "manchildren" and just barely acknowledging the women fans as recently as 2017."

When has Toriyama ever stated any of this, source? And its blatantly false on both accounts. There's not a single Toriyama interview ever dissmissing older fans as "manchildren", and he's openly acknowledged both female and adult fans since the late 80s (Toriyama onced mentioned in an mid 90s interview that he designed Future Trunks with the intention of bringing in more female fans for example).

4. The "Funimation made DB more serious" myth among much of the American fandom seriously needs to die, because not only is it false, its in many ways the other way around (the original Japanese dub & OG manga generally has more intentional gravitas to it and less "cheese" by comparsion). Also, way too many folks in the American fandom overblow the amount of tonal and charactization changes to the series and even Goku made by Funimation, when in reality its still 98% the same story & characters between dubs and since KAI, the amount of differences are basically nonexistent. Most intentional dubs of DB are more faithful to the original Japanese than the 90s Funi dub was, yet DB fandoms all over the world are basically no different from the American fandom in how they view the series.

5. The average Japanese DB fan is actually older than the average Western fan:
viewtopic.php?t=42891

Also, the Japanese, if anything, actually take the DB franchise even more seriously than Western fans do, and are even FAR more hypercritical/scrutinizing of it (especially modern DB) than Western fans are. They generally hold the franchise to a higher cultural esteem and if you look up Japanese reviews of any major DB media, you'll notice that the "its just for kids, don't take it seriously, its just dumb fun, etc" attitude is mostly nonexistent among them.

6. Video game adaptations of anime/manga generally aren't for high-quality original stories, regardless of the series in question. They mainly exist as more merchandise and fanservice for fans. So I don't see how that's a good argument.

[Planetnamek]

That video is just mildly better than the people it's criticizing. Scratch that, he's just as bad. The annoying cadence, the smugness, etc.

This guy seems like one of these alt-right types that hates the fact that Star Trek and Star Wars are now not trying solely to appeal to straight white males. All those types of Youtubers do that smugness thing, this guy is barely any better then that hack Steven Crowder.

Yuli Ban made a very good point about DB having two different target audiences in the east and west. Ultimately what's acceptable for kids over there and over here is completely different(I.E. shows that blatantly sexualize underage girls the way Anime like Dear S does would never be greenlit in the USA in a million years, likewise Japan would never do a show that has such a heavy-focus on drugs like Breaking Bad or The Wire)due ti a stark difference in cultures, so some confusion over what DB is was always going to be inevitable regardless of who dubbed it.

[Matches Malone]

This guy seems like one of these alt-right types that hates the fact that Star Trek and Star Wars are now not trying solely to appeal to straight white males.

If the only thing you can do in an argument is completely ignore the points someone's making and instead go after their political views, then you've pretty much proven them right.

In terms of star wars, I'm not a fan so I don't know the ins and outs of the franchise, but everything I've seen from people who aren't happy with it has nothing to do with the gender or skin color of the main characters. I think that argument is pretty much dead now that John Boyega came out recently and ripped them and Disney to shreds, and I highly doubt he's a secret alt-right member. Then again, if modern star wars fans are anything like modern DB fans, I wouldn't be surprised if they start accusing him of being one.

If you look up Japanese reviews of any major DB media, you'll notice that the "its just for kids, don't take it seriously, its just dumb fun, etc" attitude is mostly nonexistent among them.

I can tell you for a fact this attitude is very new, as I never saw it prior to Super's debut. God knows GT never got any excuses, and if anything, these same "fans" who justify practically everything modern DB does will turn around and rip GT to shreds for less.

[Banduck]

Dragon Ball was so ridiculous that it's astounding when you actually explain it to yourself how you ever took it seriously.

I am now 24 and still take DBZ seriously.
I also don't care that the characters are named after vegetables. What difference does it make? Why does everyone use this fact as an argument? Akira Toriyama could have hid this information and no one would have noticed anything with the names.
For me they are just normal names, I never think about vegetables while watching DBZ.

Even as the manga got more serious, it took a long time for that dense wackiness to fade, and even as late as the Freeza arc, we were seeing kung fu space warriors dressed in 80s jazzercise uniforms with sci-fi chest armor on top— and we learned that Son Goku's species were also jazzercise hair metal monkey space pirates named after vegetables, lorded around by a devil-horned eunuch named "freezer" and his wildly flamboyant henchmen literally named after fruits, like they came out of a grocery closet in the JoJo universe. And this warlord refrigerator was so powerful he could destroy entire planets with a bored flick of his finger— and still had three more transformations beyond that.

You could literally summarize ANY story in a way that makes it sound silly.
Even if you are right with your interpretation, I absolutely can't imagine anyone watching the Freeza Arc and having those thoughts. Because the story is presented in a serious and exciting way.

[Matches Malone]

You could literally summarize ANY story in a way that makes it sound silly.

"The dark knight is about a guy who dresses in a Halloween bat suit and some clown dude who wants to put smiles on people's faces...lame. "

I agree, you can take the greatest works of art and describe them in a way that makes them sound bad. That's not to say classic DB is a great work of art, but it's far better than Super's fans give it credit for.

[Dbzfan94]

You could literally summarize ANY story in a way that makes it sound silly.

"The dark knight is about a guy who dresses in a Halloween bat suit and some clown dude who kills people...lame. "

I agree, you can take the greatest works of art and describe them in a way that makes them sound bad. That's not to say classic DB is a great work of art, but it's far better than Super's fans give it credit for.

"Star Wars is about some kid can use mind powers and giant glow sticks, and he fights some other guy with mind powers and giant glow sticks who also has breathing problems. And the kids best friend is Bigfoot."