Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[ABED]

This is what I've been saying, an artist who's willing to stick to his plans, regardless of the $$$ being left behind is showing artistic integrity.

Only if the assumption is that money is a bad motivation.

It is if the price for that money is the work itself. You would rather the story and series be disrespected if it means making more money? Should companies only exist to respond to demand and make a profit, even if it means tossing morality and standards aside?

Sure there are some creators who end their works simply out of disinterest. There are others however that stop because they think it's what's best for the series.

Are you arguing that the value of making money somehow outweighs the value of the story?

Not if they throw ethics aside but as dumb as it is, keeping a story going past its prime isn't immoral. What the hell does that have to do with ethics?

Profit and art need not be in conflict. Let's not forget that we get DB because Toriyama was looking to make money.

[MasenkoHA]

We should also not shame artist for pursuing money.

[Skar]

Profit and art need not be in conflict. Let's not forget that we get DB because Toriyama was looking to make money.

Well it goes without saying that money is one of the motivations for an author to choose it as a profession and not only a hobby. I don't think anyone is denying that and they're arguing the difference between money as their prime motivation to continue their series or because author feels there are still worthwhile stories to tell. If they choose end their series despite it still being successful and could easily continue, money was unlikely to be their main deciding factor as to why they wanted ro end it there.

[dragonmagico]

We should also not shame artist for pursuing money.

agreed. they need to eat too. art isnt just some hippy dippy give to everyone/benefit society for free and dont make a living for yourself thing. it was/is this mans career. And a respectable one at that.

[Matches Malone]

Art isn't just some hippy dippy give to everyone/benefit society for free and don't make a living for yourself thing. it was/is this man's career. And a respectable one at that.

No one's shaming anyone for continuing to work on what makes them money, we just think it's admirable when an artist can say no to money and move on in favor of keeping their work's reputation intact. By move on I mean work on another story, not move away from the profession. When it comes to DB, even Toriyama's 1st editor thinks he should've moved away from DB and worked on something else, as early as after Namek. I personally don't agree with that, as both Cell and Buu brought great things to DB, but I'm just pointing out that it's not just fans saying he should've moved on.

[The Bastard.]

They already do profit off of DB, though, they simply do so while funneling a portion of the profits back to Shueisha and then Shueisha back to Toriyama. Consumer money is going into the hands of people who won't spend it back into the economy like a poor creator would. With a public domain that is more open consumer attention will be split away from the usual suspects (Shueisha, Toei and Bandai) and the profits will go to independent creators or smaller companies. It's a better system not just for labor and but for consumers, too.

There's simply no proof of that other than an utopic wish.

Open source stuff like this gets beat to the ground because everyone does their own take on it, most of the time being a poor/shitty take on it, the public gets saturated and people move on from that franchise/IP for a decade or two until it comes back and the cycle repeats itself.

Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood are proof of it. Copyright laws are garbage, but to think that freeing everything for everyone to do whatever they want won't change the system. People that want already do DB fan work without issues, only big companies that can throw truckloads of money on marketing would profit from this

I thought it was obviously I don't care about quality? Like, quality is subjective and there will doubtlessly be shit I think sucks but why should that effect my principled stance on dismantling corporate hold on IP and preventing the endless accumulation of wealth by a few or an individual, especially when that accumulation is built off of the backs of regular people?

Oh well, at least we're talking about DB again...

Because Toryiama is the one that made DB and he chose to publish with whoever he wanted and profited of it. The anime wouldn't exist, the movies wouldn't exist, maybe the manga would be a niche in Japan itself if he did not have the capability to mass produce copies and we wouldn't even be talking about this right now.

DB reached the highs it reached due to marketing and money thrown at it to make it popular, it's not just a guy in a room doing it all alone.

[Matches Malone]

DB reached the highs it reached due to marketing and money thrown at it to make it popular, it's not just a guy in a room doing it all alone.

It's also worth mentioning that countless people now have a career thanks to DB, so it being a big corporate franchise isn't as bad as some make it out to be. DB being a successful corporate franchise resulted in other massive franchises being created due to their authors being inspired by it, resulting in even more careers being created.

[Skar]

No one's shaming anyone for continuing to work on what makes them money, we just think it's admirable when an artist can say no to money and move on in favor of keeping their work's reputation intact. By move on I mean work on another story, not move away from the profession. When it comes to DB, even Toriyama's 1st editor thinks he should've moved away from DB and worked on something else, as early as after Namek. I personally don't agree with that, as both Cell and Buu brought great things to DB, but I'm just pointing out that it's not just fans saying he should've moved on.

I do respect Toriyama for still sticking to his original ending. After he completed the DB manga, he made a parody spin-off, a prequel, and a midquel. There are fans still waiting for a Post-EoZ sequel but some recent predictions didn't come to pass so I'm not too worried.

[eledoremassis02]

I think Dragon Ball is leagues different than say Batman (who was basically birthed out of ways to make money after Superman's success and not out of the creativity of Bob Kane, Bill Finger, and co. *It basically was a corporate idea fleshed out by its employees*)

I will say, while there is a lot of issues with post Z stuff (GT, Super Etc.) I'm at the point (thanks to countless Hollywood remakes) that I'm just glad the there is a Dragon Ball that I like, and I don't care if I don't come across what I don't like. And that even counts with the various interpretations of Z.

Japan also does seem to be a tad bit more fan-made friendly when it comes to fan-produced stuff, and one thing that I think makes fanbases last around longer. Heck, the Super manga is being made by a fan who made fan comics. Even here, Team Four Star basically benefited off the success of Dragon Ball and built their own skillsets, connections, and their popularity (even with TOEIs dismissal of them) out of their own love for the property and have made money off of it.

So, I think if there is an openness, say like George Lucas, then I really don't see a problem with it with a big corporation profiting off it. Now there are issues with Billion Dollar companies who pay their employees like trash and act as if they don't have money (and I think this pandemic has been quite the example) but I feel that's more to do with the decaying corporate/political culture that has been allowed to fester more so than greed for a particular property.

[LoganForkHands73]

I think Dragon Ball is leagues different than say Batman (who was basically birthed out of ways to make money after Superman's success and not out of the creativity of Bob Kane, Bill Finger, and co. *It basically was a corporate idea fleshed out by its employees*)

All superheroes created around that period rode of Superman's cape but the situation with Batman was actually a major divergence. When Bob Kane first thought to make a "Bat-Man" character, he basically drew a lame Superman-lite in bright red spandex and bat wings that allowed him to fly. Bill Finger was the one who actually defined everything that made Batman who he is today (no powers, dark costume, gritty pulp feel) and continued to write his comics for decades, yet received zero official credit until very recently. While Batman was inspired by past pulp comic strip characters, he was much less of a blatant Superman expy than characters like Captain Marvel.

What's fucked is that all Batman media was legally credited solely to Bob Kane, who came up with the name and very little else, for nearly 80 years. It would be like if every Dragon Ball product was solely credited to Kazuhiko Torishima instead of Toriyama. Western comics have always had a big problem with giving creator credit -- while Alan Moore may be a bit of a drama queen, he knew that this shit was always happening to lesser-known comic creators and I respect him for leaving it partly on those principles.

Either way, Dragon Ball isn't so different in terms of how it was created to make money. Making a Journey to the West inspired story wasn't exactly an earthshattering idea even then. Toriyama was already made thanks to Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball simply continued the same style of humour with a fresh coat of paint and a bit more plot.

I will say, while there is a lot of issues with post Z stuff (GT, Super Etc.) I'm at the point (thanks to countless Hollywood remakes) that I'm just glad the there is a Dragon Ball that I like, and I don't care if I don't come across what I don't like. And that even counts with the various interpretations of Z.

Japan also does seem to be a tad bit more fan-made friendly when it comes to fan-produced stuff, and one thing that I think makes fanbases last around longer. Heck, the Super manga is being made by a fan who made fan comics. Even here, Team Four Star basically benefited off the success of Dragon Ball and built their own skillsets, connections, and their popularity (even with TOEIs dismissal of them) out of their own love for the property and have made money off of it.

I've heard a lot of conflicting stuff about how the Japanese handle copyright laws so I'd like to read more about this. On the one hand, I've heard that corporate lawyers for Toei, Toho and so on can be absolutely vicious and uncompromising, yet fan-published doujinshi books are still allowed to be sold alongside official works... I wonder how that really works...

[Matches Malone]

On the one hand, I've heard that corporate lawyers for Toei, Toho and so on can be absolutely vicious and uncompromising, yet fan-published doujinshi books are still allowed to be published and sold alongside official works... I wonder how that really works...

I think they're easy going on fan made products because they believe it can help sell more copies of their official products. When it comes to bootleg copies of official material, that's a different story, as it takes away sales rather than adding to them.

Western comics have always had a big problem with giving creator credit.

I've read plenty of disturbing stories from both Marvel and DC writers. I know the Japanese companies aren't perfect, but at least they give credit to authors like Toriyama for their work. I don't know how accurate this is, but there's a lot of questions surrounding what Stan Lee really created at Marvel, which is mind blowing to me.

[JulieYBM]

There's simply no proof of that other than an utopic wish.

Open source stuff like this gets beat to the ground because everyone does their own take on it, most of the time being a poor/shitty take on it, the public gets saturated and people move on from that franchise/IP for a decade or two until it comes back and the cycle repeats itself.

Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood are proof of it. Copyright laws are garbage, but to think that freeing everything for everyone to do whatever they want won't change the system. People that want already do DB fan work without issues, only big companies that can throw truckloads of money on marketing would profit from this

I thought it was obviously I don't care about quality? Like, quality is subjective and there will doubtlessly be shit I think sucks but why should that effect my principled stance on dismantling corporate hold on IP and preventing the endless accumulation of wealth by a few or an individual, especially when that accumulation is built off of the backs of regular people?

Oh well, at least we're talking about DB again...

Because Toryiama is the one that made DB and he chose to publish with whoever he wanted and profited of it. The anime wouldn't exist, the movies wouldn't exist, maybe the manga would be a niche in Japan itself if he did not have the capability to mass produce copies and we wouldn't even be talking about this right now.

DB reached the highs it reached due to marketing and money thrown at it to make it popular, it's not just a guy in a room doing it all alone.

Yeah, and the profits of that work are majorly held by a few people in comparison to the large number of people who did the work. A small number of elite few continue to profit from the work of many thousands and the consumes who continue to make it profitable.

Dragon Ball didn't become a massive behemoth by one man in a room, you got that right.

[The Bastard.]

I thought it was obviously I don't care about quality? Like, quality is subjective and there will doubtlessly be shit I think sucks but why should that effect my principled stance on dismantling corporate hold on IP and preventing the endless accumulation of wealth by a few or an individual, especially when that accumulation is built off of the backs of regular people?

Oh well, at least we're talking about DB again...

Because Toryiama is the one that made DB and he chose to publish with whoever he wanted and profited of it. The anime wouldn't exist, the movies wouldn't exist, maybe the manga would be a niche in Japan itself if he did not have the capability to mass produce copies and we wouldn't even be talking about this right now.

DB reached the highs it reached due to marketing and money thrown at it to make it popular, it's not just a guy in a room doing it all alone.

Yeah, and the profits of that work are majorly held by a few people in comparison to the large number of people who did the work. A small number of elite few continue to profit from the work of many thousands and the consumes who continue to make it profitable.

Dragon Ball didn't become a massive behemoth by one man in a room, you got that right.

Yes, and Toryiama, the one with the idea, is rich and profiting from his work, as will his children and grandchildren. It was people with money that made it possible to reach the public it reached, hopes, dreams and wishing is not what moves the world, let me remind you. Money is power to change things, including printing millions of copies to make sure people read your work 40 years later and to make it able to continue doing it.

Even when One wrote his stellar comic, it was old, fashioned money that made him able to hire an extremely talented and passionate mangaka to actually make it mainstream and even more money to make a beloved anime out of it.

[eledoremassis02]

Spoiler:

I think Dragon Ball is leagues different than say Batman (who was basically birthed out of ways to make money after Superman's success and not out of the creativity of Bob Kane, Bill Finger, and co. *It basically was a corporate idea fleshed out by its employees*)

All superheroes created around that period rode of Superman's cape but the situation with Batman was actually a major divergence. When Bob Kane first thought to make a "Bat-Man" character, he basically drew a lame Superman-lite in bright red spandex and bat wings that allowed him to fly. Bill Finger was the one who actually defined everything that made Batman who he is today (no powers, dark costume, gritty pulp feel) and continued to write his comics for decades, yet received zero official credit until very recently. While Batman was inspired by past pulp comic strip characters, he was much less of a blatant Superman expy than characters like Captain Marvel.

What's fucked is that all Batman media was legally credited solely to Bob Kane, who came up with the name and very little else, for nearly 80 years. It would be like if every Dragon Ball product was solely credited to Kazuhiko Torishima instead of Toriyama. Western comics have always had a big problem with giving creator credit -- while Alan Moore may be a bit of a drama queen, he knew that this shit was always happening to lesser-known comic creators and I respect him for leaving it partly on those principles.

Either way, Dragon Ball isn't so different in terms of how it was created to make money. Making a Journey to the West inspired story wasn't exactly an earthshattering idea even then. Toriyama was already made thanks to Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball simply continued the same style of humour with a fresh coat of paint and a bit more plot.

I will say, while there is a lot of issues with post Z stuff (GT, Super Etc.) I'm at the point (thanks to countless Hollywood remakes) that I'm just glad the there is a Dragon Ball that I like, and I don't care if I don't come across what I don't like. And that even counts with the various interpretations of Z.

Japan also does seem to be a tad bit more fan-made friendly when it comes to fan-produced stuff, and one thing that I think makes fanbases last around longer. Heck, the Super manga is being made by a fan who made fan comics. Even here, Team Four Star basically benefited off the success of Dragon Ball and built their own skillsets, connections, and their popularity (even with TOEIs dismissal of them) out of their own love for the property and have made money off of it.

I've heard a lot of conflicting stuff about how the Japanese handle copyright laws so I'd like to read more about this. On the one hand, I've heard that corporate lawyers for Toei, Toho and so on can be absolutely vicious and uncompromising, yet fan-published doujinshi books are still allowed to be sold alongside official works... I wonder how that really works...

True, but Batmans origins feel much more corporate than Dragon Balls, tho I admit, I could be wrong (and it might just because a team was assigned to make a new character *batman* and Toriyama was pretty much just him and his editor *story wise*. I rember watching an interveiw with Bob Kane and my sister left saying "I do not like this man". He defintly did seem to have quite the ego, and was rather greedy (all he talked about was being rich off of Batman).

Yea, It does seem odd I wonder if Kei could lend us a hand in that particular situation in regards to Japanese copywrite. I do like this spect of the Japanese fan community and we have it to it a smaller extent.

[LoganForkHands73]

On the one hand, I've heard that corporate lawyers for Toei, Toho and so on can be absolutely vicious and uncompromising, yet fan-published doujinshi books are still allowed to be published and sold alongside official works... I wonder how that really works...

I think they're easy going on fan made products because they believe it can help sell more copies of their official products. When it comes to bootleg copies of official material, that's a different story, as it takes away sales rather than adding to them.

Are the fan product creators still allowed to profit on IPs? I've heard horror stories about how Toho, the rights holders for Godzilla, will take down anything that bares even a faint resemblance to Godzilla without their permission. I guess it depends on the company.

Western comics have always had a big problem with giving creator credit.

I've read plenty of disturbing stories from both Marvel and DC writers. I know the Japanese companies aren't perfect, but at least they give credit to authors like Toriyama for their work. I don't know how accurate this is, but there's a lot of questions surrounding what Stan Lee really created at Marvel, which is mind blowing to me.

Aye it is pretty disturbing. Stan Lee was a godlike promoter and businessman but his roles in the creation of most of the characters with his name attached are usually, to I'll put it likely, exaggerated. He was lucky that the guys he worked with, namely Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby, were much more solitary and less fame-hungry but they still disliked Stan for marginalising their roles in the creation of these characters. I think it's a byproduct of the American Dream that when something makes a person successful, they usually want to hog all of the glory to themselves. I've noticed that a majority of comic authors in America, Japan, across the board, tend to be quite introverted people so a cool, charismatic guy like Stan slapping his face over everything Marvel-related helped to draw everyone in and create this massive cult of personality. Guys like Toriyama, Steve Ditko, they're total recluses -- they just wanted to get their names out on what they created, they didn't care for the paparazzi. Luckily, Toriyama did, but unfortunately Ditko, the creator of goddamn Spider-Man, died alone in his apartment and no one even knew until like a week later when they found his body festering.

I've mulled my opinion on Stan for a while and come to the conclusion that I don't mind him but I can't quite say I like him. He was certainly a larger-than-life character and he stood up for a lot of good causes -- he stood firmly against racism and bigotry, he pushed against the stifling Comics Code -- but he wasn't some sinless saint. There's that urban legend about how he pushed his luck a bit too far one time by claiming that he created Captain America, even though he would've been about 12 when Joe Simon and Jack Kirby first created Cap. On top of that, he was about as sexist as you'd expect from a 95 year old man but even the Twitter warriors conveniently ignore that.

[eledoremassis02]

On the one hand, I've heard that corporate lawyers for Toei, Toho and so on can be absolutely vicious and uncompromising, yet fan-published doujinshi books are still allowed to be published and sold alongside official works... I wonder how that really works...

I think they're easy going on fan made products because they believe it can help sell more copies of their official products. When it comes to bootleg copies of official material, that's a different story, as it takes away sales rather than adding to them.

Are the fan product creators still allowed to profit on IPs? I've heard horror stories about how Toho, the rights holders for Godzilla, will take down anything that bares even a faint resemblance to Godzilla without their permission. I guess it depends on the company.

Western comics have always had a big problem with giving creator credit.

I've read plenty of disturbing stories from both Marvel and DC writers. I know the Japanese companies aren't perfect, but at least they give credit to authors like Toriyama for their work. I don't know how accurate this is, but there's a lot of questions surrounding what Stan Lee really created at Marvel, which is mind blowing to me.

Aye it is pretty disturbing. Stan Lee was a godlike promoter and businessman but his roles in the creation of most of the characters with his name attached are usually, to I'll put it likely, exaggerated. He was lucky that the guys he worked with, namely Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby, were much more solitary and less fame-hungry but they still disliked Stan for marginalising their roles in the creation of these characters. I think it's a byproduct of the American Dream that when something makes a person successful, they usually want to hog all of the glory to themselves. I've noticed that a majority of comic authors in America, Japan, across the board, tend to be quite introverted people so a cool, charismatic guy like Stan slapping his face over everything Marvel-related helped to draw everyone in and create this massive cult of personality. Guys like Toriyama, Steve Ditko, they're total recluses -- they just wanted to get their names out on what they created, they didn't care for the fame. Luckily, Toriyama did, but unfortunately Ditko, the creator of goddamn Spider-Man, died alone in his apartment and no one even knew until like a week later when they found his body festering.

I've mulled my opinion on Stan for a while and come to the conclusion that I don't mind him but I can't quite say I like him. He was certainly a larger-than-life character and he stood up for a lot of good causes -- he stood firmly against racism and bigotry, he pushed against the stifling Comics Code -- but he wasn't some sinless saint. There's that urban legend about how he pushed his luck a bit too far one time by claiming that he created Captain America, even though he would've been about 12 when Joe Simon and Jack Kirby first created Cap. On top of that, he was about as sexist as you'd expect from a 95 year old man but even the Twitter warriors conveniently ignore that.

Stan Lee was also quite friendly with Bob Kane so I'm sure those two didnt help each other to become more humble (Finger died similarly to Ditko it sounds which is really sad). But the grab bag of opportunity for attention for extroverted creators in the comic industry does give a unique aspect toward the Stan Lee's and Bob Kanes. I think the explostion of comics = cool (and a new way to get fmaouse and rich) was much more sudden thanks to rise of Batman in 66 than ins Japan where Manga was and arguably still is more broadly accepted so there was no powerkeg of fame, so to speak.

[ABED]

That's not the sense I get from Stan Lee is that it's not a Kane situation. He gave his artists credit but down deep he believes since he had the idea that he was the creator. That speaks well to his moral character. I don't fully agree but he's not altogether wrong. Don't lump him in with Kane.

Of course there are people who will say Lee exaggerated his involvement in the creation of the characters. That happens all the time and much of it isn't necessarily malicious but simply a matter of subjectivity. Do you know how many take credit for He-Man or the nWo?

Anyway the profit motive is a perfectly fine motivation and gets a bad rap. DB doesn't become what it becomes if he doesn't change it from a JttW parody.

[eledoremassis02]

That's not the sense I get from Stan Lee is that it's not a Kane situation. He gave his artists credit but down deep he believes since he had the idea that he was the creator. I don't fully agree but he's not altogether wrong. Don't lump him in with Kane.

Jame's O'Barr also has a similar issue with a guy claiming he was the model and inspiration for Eric.

What happened with Kane and co. was quite common at the time of Batman's creation and just happened to play in Kanes own ego, or at the very least he seized the moment. Kane didn't grow before his booming fame thanks to the TV series. I cant find it but I recall in the mid-late 90's Kane actually feeling some remorse and wishing he gave finger acknowledgment because he realized he couldn't take his money with him.

" 'I was stupid in a business way," he (Stan Lee) admits. 'I should have been greedier.' Throughout all of Marvel's financial ups and downs over the decades — it has been bought and sold a dozen times — Lee, who never was an owner, failed to cash in, at least in a big way. He concedes he signed deals he shouldn't have, like the one in 1998 in which he traded away his movie points for a reported $10 million (plus about a million a year for life).'" - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/featu ... ses-912577

Bob Kane was also very much money-driven and seized the opportunity for his own greed, I have to refind it but there is an interview where all he talked about was how rich he was (the same interview my sister walked out on).

"“I wish my friend Bob Kane were still with us — he’s the fellow who created Batman,” Lee said. “Bob always used to tease me about the fact that Batman was a big deal on television and in movies, and we at Marvel had done nothing. I wish he was here now so I could return that teasing. A character should be somebody that the reader, or viewer, really cares about, and maybe at Marvel we put a little more effort into refining the characteristics and the nature of our heroes, maybe a little more effort than they have on the other side of the aisle.” - https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/why-stan- ... Lee%20said.

Now I'm not trying to drag Stan Lee thru the dirt and dont think he's bad like Bob Kane but they seem to have been good friends and I'm sure their similar status to their own companies (tho Stan Lee deservedly did much more than Bob Kane). And even when you read these quotes he's more playful and money is more of a side note, you can tell he has a lot more love for the art and story of comics than I think Bob Kane ever had.

Even just watch this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f63MZR3npsw you can see they had a good relationship. Stan is much more broader about what he talks about here where Bob Kane can't help but drop about his residuals (which he must bring up atleast once in every interveiw). I love Batman but I just can't watch Bob Kane for more then two seconds.

I don't want you to think I'm trashing Stan Lee, I love watching him and was horrified how he was treated in his later years and there is nothing wrong with wanting have money but I do have to ask "when is it enough?" and that is a ticky question becaus e that applies to both the creator and the company. Also I dont see Stan Lee having Covid parties in his mantion like some of these Tit Tok stars...Bob Kane on the other hand

To reel it back to Dragon Ball, I think that same greed (so to speak) dented Dragon Ball for the longest time because FUNimation went to texas to be cheaper. Its the way business is done and that does bother me.

[ABED]

It's not the way business is always done but it also bothers me when people cheap out. There's a difference between being cheap vs being frugal. Many businesses cut costs past the point where they can keep up quality (I saw it a lot in government contracting), but it's not always true.

[The Bastard.]

It's not the way business is always done but it also bothers me when people cheap out. There's a difference between being cheap vs being frugal. Many businesses cut costs past the point where they can keep up quality (I saw it a lot in government contracting), but it's not always true.

It's short term thinking and poor planning over long term, they cheap out even where they shouldn't and it will be years before they see what they build, poorly, crumbles before their eyes.

Either will take years to recover and a lot more money or they will just fail at whatever they wanted to do.