Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[ABED]

It's not the way business is always done but it also bothers me when people cheap out. There's a difference between being cheap vs being frugal. Many businesses cut costs past the point where they can keep up quality (I saw it a lot in government contracting), but it's not always true.

It's short term thinking and poor planning over long term, they cheap out even where they shouldn't and it will be years before they see what they build, poorly, crumbles before their eyes.

Either will take years to recover and a lot more money or they will just fail at whatever they wanted to do.

Yup.

Anyway I wonder if some or even all of these hypothetical improvements were instituted if our fellow members think it would be lead to a renewed sense of vitality for DB or if it would only make it somewhat better. I doubt it would make that much of a difference in the long run.

[The Bastard.]

It's not the way business is always done but it also bothers me when people cheap out. There's a difference between being cheap vs being frugal. Many businesses cut costs past the point where they can keep up quality (I saw it a lot in government contracting), but it's not always true.

It's short term thinking and poor planning over long term, they cheap out even where they shouldn't and it will be years before they see what they build, poorly, crumbles before their eyes.

Either will take years to recover and a lot more money or they will just fail at whatever they wanted to do.

Yup.

Anyway I wonder if some or even all of these hypothetical improvements were instituted if our fellow members think it would be lead to a renewed sense of vitality for DB or if it would only make it somewhat better. I doubt it would make that much of a difference in the long run.

The writing and pacing was the worst problem of Super, maybe time could have fixed it, but it's not that simple, who knows, maybe they were literally writing episodes on the run so that's why it was a mess but we can't be sure and probably will never know exactly.

[ABED]

I get that but the quickness of the writing isn't enough to explain why it's bad. Lord knows Toriyama had an ambitious schedule but years, he got better and better at just about every aspect of his craft.

[The Bastard.]

I get that but the quickness of the writing isn't enough to explain why it's bad. Lord knows Toriyama had an ambitious schedule but years, he got better and better at just about every aspect of his craft.

Did he really?

He was good at making things on the fly, very good at it, but even he was not infallible to the crunch that was making a weekly manga, Cell Saga and Buu Saga especially suffered a lot from the hectic pace of the manga, and Toryiama is not at the helm anymore, he was incredibly good at what he did so you can't expect people to do what he did in another medium in a universe that already has an ethos and a expectation of how things should happen.

I think he had more freedom, because Super manga and anime, while different have to at least follow guidelines, and more talent to do stuff. Pacing issues and more than one person writing a show can make one episode say something just for the other to contradict itself because they don't even have the time to do one simple revision, and we all know that this happened with Toryiama too, he often forgot stuff

[ABED]

That "but years" should be "for years". Ugh

I didn't say he was infallible but by and large he did get better. Yes, after a while he got burnt out, but that's bound to happen and the story was already long in the tooth by the time Trunks had arrived. However from the first chapter through Namek he got better as an artist and storyteller.

[Matches Malone]

I wonder if some or even all of these hypothetical improvements were instituted if our fellow members think it would be lead to a renewed sense of vitality for DB.

It will for me. I remember watching some of the episodes on Toonami alongside other anime, including Kai, and I could tell something was seriously wrong with it. Everything about it from the animation to the writing felt completely off compared to the other anime I was watching besides it. I don't blame the people who worked on it because they had 2 things going against them, time and a lack of source material.

When Super returns, most, if not all the issues that 1.0 faced will be gone. Character interactions will feel more natural and consistent, the animation and scene transitions will also be vastly improved, and most importantly, they'll have the manga to use as a base. I personally have Super 1.0 at a 5/10, but I think its sequel will easily be a 7, maybe even more.

[Skar]

I get that but the quickness of the writing isn't enough to explain why it's bad. Lord knows Toriyama had an ambitious schedule but years, he got better and better at just about every aspect of his craft.

That might be easier for a manga artist than an animation team. Toriyama was the single writer aside from suggestions he uses from his editors while Toei now has to divide up his outlines among a group of writers. If you notice an anime inconsistency such as a detail that's brought up one episode and doesn't apply to another, chances are both episodes had different writers. More lead time could mean this happens less often since they're not rushed to fill out the details and
the series director or whoever is responsible can look over them.

It wouldn't fix all the problems like those associated with being a midquel and continuing a series that'a long been over but the writing might feel more organized and the animation more consistent at least. Of course, the storylines themselves might not be that good so these improvements might not make a huge difference. Toriyama seems to be struggling with ideas after the Champa saga. He setup the ToP at the end of that arc but Goku Black and Broly were suggested to him. He said he rejected some of their suggestions before deciding on Broly so that could be another reason why they're taking a break to give time to decide what he wants to work on next.

[ABED]

I wonder if some or even all of these hypothetical improvements were instituted if our fellow members think it would be lead to a renewed sense of vitality for DB.

It will for me. I remember watching some of the episodes on Toonami alongside other anime, including Kai, and I could tell something was seriously wrong with it. Everything about it from the animation to the writing felt completely off compared to the other anime I was watching besides it. I don't blame the people who worked on it because they had 2 things going against them, time and a lack of source material.

When Super returns, most, if not all the issues that 1.0 faced will be gone. Character interactions will feel more natural and consistent, the animation and scene transitions will also be vastly improved, and most importantly, they'll have the manga to use as a base. I personally have Super 1.0 at a 5/10, but I think its sequel will easily be a 7, maybe even more.

What character inconsistencies are you referring to?

[Matches Malone]

What character inconsistencies are you referring to?

Mostly Goku. He'll go from really annoying, to average, to smart, to annoying again, to caring about people, to not caring, etc. There are other examples such as Vegeta saying he's out of power in one episode, only to fully power up in the next. It's clear as day that there wasn't any fact checking going on.

Toei now has to divide up his outlines among a group of writers. If you notice an anime inconsistency such as a detail that's brought up one episode and doesn't apply to another, chances are both episodes had different writers.

Every show has different writers, but the reason we don't notice (most of the time anyway) is because there's someone who goes over everything to make sure it lines up with what came before and what will come after. Super's staff unfortunately didn't have the time to do this, something that'll be more than likely a thing of the past with 2uper.

[ABED]

What character inconsistencies are you referring to?

Mostly Goku. He'll go from really annoying, to average, to smart, to annoying again, to caring about people, to not caring, etc. There are other examples such as Vegeta saying he's out of power in one episode, only to fully power up in the next. It's clear as day that there wasn't any fact checking going on.

Toei now has to divide up his outlines among a group of writers. If you notice an anime inconsistency such as a detail that's brought up one episode and doesn't apply to another, chances are both episodes had different writers.

Every show has different writers, but the reason we don't notice (most of the time anyway) is because there's someone who goes over everything to make sure it lines up with what came before and what will come after. Super's staff unfortunately didn't have the time to do this, something that'll be more than likely a thing of the past with 2uper.

could you be more specific? Also, whether he's acting annoying is a matter of opinion.

Lets not forget that Goku is often inconsistent as a matter of who his character is. He has no problem with letting bad guys go free for the sake of a better fight, even knowing it will lead to death of innocent people, but doesn't do anything. However, he gets really upset when he sees innocent people suffer.

The plot holes or apparent plot holes aren't the fundamental issue. Generally speaking, that sort of stuff doesn't matter.

[Matches Malone]

Could you be more specific?

The plot holes or apparent plot holes aren't the fundamental issue. Generally speaking, that sort of stuff doesn't matter.

If you've seen the show and haven't noticed anything, then there's nothing I can say that will change that.

They matter when they're an episode or 2 apart. If you're going to say character A is out of power, only to have him fully power up in the very next episode, then that's a problem. I'm not asking for perfection, just basic consistency.

[ABED]

Could you be more specific?

The plot holes or apparent plot holes aren't the fundamental issue. Generally speaking, that sort of stuff doesn't matter.

If you've seen the show and haven't noticed anything, then there's nothing I can say that will change that.

They matter when they're an episode or 2 apart. If you're going to say character A is out of power, only to have him fully power up in the very next episode, then that's a problem. I'm not asking for perfection, just basic consistency.

I haven't seen it in a while. I don't recall something I saw a while ago ONCE off the top of my head.

If people didn't care that Vegeta beat up Gohan and flew away only to be on the ground with everyone acting like nothing happened, it doesn't matter NEARLY as much as you claim. We see Goku caught in Namek's explosion AND the scene where he jumps in Ginyu's spaceship. I think they might have even shown the two versions of events in the same episode.

Edit: Yep, it's even in the same scene. Plot holes don't matter to audiences that much. It seems to make sense that they do when judging art because they are tangible.

[Matches Malone]

If people didn't care that Vegeta beat up Gohan and flew away only to be on the ground with everyone acting like nothing happened, it doesn't matter NEARLY as much as you claim.

We see Goku caught in Namek's explosion AND the scene where he jumps in Ginyu's spaceship.

That was a (pointless) filler scene.

The scene of Goku jumping into the Ginyu spaceship wasn't in the manga. I agree it's an inconsistency for the anime, but it's not nearly as bad as the one I mentioned for Vegeta.

[ABED]

If people didn't care that Vegeta beat up Gohan and flew away only to be on the ground with everyone acting like nothing happened, it doesn't matter NEARLY as much as you claim.

We see Goku caught in Namek's explosion AND the scene where he jumps in Ginyu's spaceship.

That was a (pointless) filler scene.

The scene of Goku jumping into the Ginyu spaceship wasn't in the manga. I agree it's an inconsistency for the anime, but it's not nearly as bad as the one I mentioned for Vegeta.

Doesn't matter if it wasn't in the manga. For millions, the anime is the only version they will ever see. It was in the show, and as for which is worse, that's a matter of opinion

[Matches Malone]

It was in the show, and as for which is worse, that's a matter of opinion

One was done for dramatic effect, while the other was just a flat inconsistency, and a terrible one at that.

[ABED]

It was in the show, and as for which is worse, that's a matter of opinion

One was done for dramatic effect, while the other was just a flat inconsistency, and a terrible one at that.

Which doesn't matter to audiences. That an inconsistency was created for dramatic effect doesn't make it better. It's arguably worse since it's clear the writer is forcing the drama. It's why a lot of inconsistencies happen - the writer is trying to solve a plot problem often at the expense of character.

[Matches Malone]

An inconsistency was created for dramatic effect doesn't make it better. It's arguably worse since it's clear the writer is forcing the drama.

Isn't this done all the time ? We'll be shown what everyone thinks happened (Goku screaming as he dies with Namek), only for what really happened to be shown later (Goku explaining how he jumped from Freeza's ship to the Ginyu's) ? It's definitely not the same as showing Vegeta out of power, only for him to fully power up in the very next episode. I agree that both aren't good, I just think one is worse than the other.

[Skar]

Doesn't matter if it wasn't in the manga. For millions, the anime is the only version they will ever see. It was in the show, and as for which is worse, that's a matter of opinion

I know most of the audience doesn't mind but it's not anyone who does notice an inconsistency is going to stop watching because of it. It's usually something that's been overlooked and not the writers intentionally wanting to have two conflicting scenes. Since these types of scenes could easily be cut out, it would be ideal if they could avoid them is all.

[ABED]

An inconsistency was created for dramatic effect doesn't make it better. It's arguably worse since it's clear the writer is forcing the drama.

Isn't this done all the time ? We'll be shown what everyone thinks happened (Goku screaming as he dies with Namek), only for what really happened to be shown later (Goku explaining how he jumped from Freeza's ship to the Ginyu's) ? It's definitely not the same as showing Vegeta out of power, only for him to fully power up in the very next episode. I agree that both aren't good, I just think one is worse than the other.

It was never indicated that it's what they think is happening. It was shown as that was what happened.

It has to make emotional sense, not purely logical sense.

[Adamant]

If people didn't care that Vegeta beat up Gohan and flew away only to be on the ground with everyone acting like nothing happened, it doesn't matter NEARLY as much as you claim.

We see Goku caught in Namek's explosion AND the scene where he jumps in Ginyu's spaceship.

That was a (pointless) filler scene.

The scene of Goku jumping into the Ginyu spaceship wasn't in the manga. I agree it's an inconsistency for the anime, but it's not nearly as bad as the one I mentioned for Vegeta.

Doesn't matter if it wasn't in the manga. For millions, the anime is the only version they will ever see. It was in the show, and as for which is worse, that's a matter of opinion

I don't know how anime-only people reacted to that Vegeta scene. But my personal reaction was "wow, that's some dumb and out-of-character filler, wonder how they're going to make it work with that manga scene that's coming up soon... oh, they just adapted the manga scene straight and ignored its inconsistency with the filler scene", and that's presumably how most other people familiar with the manga reacted as well. Because if you know what's coming up, that scene REALLY sticks out as "holy shit what the hell is the anime doing?" the moment it starts. And millions of people DID know what was coming up when they first saw that scene.