Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Wasn't the dream mainly due to Yamoshi's spirit being sensed by Beerus and the Oracle Fish? And having to do with the Super Saiyan God a.k.a. the form that was surpassed ages ago by Super Saiyan Blue?

This "prophesized rival" thing barely applied even back then.

[Miracles]

The prophecy was about Beerus having an arch rival appearing. At the end of BoG, the narration stated that between Goku and Vegeta one of them will become his rival. Meaning, the Oracle concerning Beerus getting challenged has not been fulfilled yet.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Wasn't the prophecy also about Beerus and the Super Saiyan God being his rival? Pretty sure he named off the Super Saiyan God and threatened the Oracle Fish about that being what he meant. And it's not like the series doesn't entirely forget things from before.

Creator of the scouters? Used to be a Saiyan, now Kikono.

The legendary Super Saiyan? Used to be a bloodthirsty and violent warrior, now Yamoshi one of the few purehearted Saiyans from the past.

[Miracles]

Yes, the prophecy stated the Super Saiyan god is the rival appearing in 39 years. However, SSG was no where near a rival for Beerus. That's why narration also said Goku and Vegeta will become an arch rival. The prophecy was for the present and future.

A plot point that is not forgotten about. Since it was brought up again shortly before the TOP.

[Hugo Boss]

I think you can work around Goku’s assessment of Broli and Beerus’ strength, because Goku doesn’t know how strong Beerus truly is (Beerus purposefully kept his true strength hidden from Goku). And there is that prophecy. So, between Goku and Oracle Fish, I think the latter is more reliable right now.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's really the anime that puts things into question, as it constantly emphasizes that Jiren is at or above the level of God of Destruction and has Whis as a supporter.

And seeing as how he's one of the most knowledgeable characters in the entire franchise, it's easy to see why people will argue for Jiren given his performances and statements.

[FishermanJohnWest]

So, with that stated Moro is the current undisputed strongest enemy Goku is facing. Since he will be facing a much stronger UI than ever before. I'm excited to see what's to come of this groundbreaking battle. Seeing UI for the first time since the TOP.

If Beerus has been up scaled in the series, then anyone who scales with him gets up scaled as well.

Meaning unless Moro is > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Cause it's as you said, next enemies are usually stronger UNLESS it's Beerus, and with Broly scaling to that exception, Broly himself becomes an exception.

Broly is not the prophetic Saiyan to become a rival for Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are. Broly is not an exception to the rule at all.

Obviously not considering that Broly never existed in the main series back then lol

[FishermanJohnWest]

I think you can work around Goku’s assessment of Broli and Beerus’ strength, because Goku doesn’t know how strong Beerus truly is (Beerus purposefully kept his true strength hidden from Goku). And there is that prophecy. So, between Goku and Oracle Fish, I think the latter is more reliable right now.

Goku saw Beerus FP in the manga, the series needs to prove Goku assessment wrong

[FishermanJohnWest]

Yes, the prophecy stated the Super Saiyan god is the rival appearing in 39 years. However, SSG was no where near a rival for Beerus. That's why narration also said Goku and Vegeta will become an arch rival. The prophecy was for the present and future.

A plot point that is not forgotten about. Since it was brought up again shortly before the TOP.

Which has nothing to do with Broly since he never existed when both statements are made

[Miracles]

Yes, the prophecy stated the Super Saiyan god is the rival appearing in 39 years. However, SSG was no where near a rival for Beerus. That's why narration also said Goku and Vegeta will become an arch rival. The prophecy was for the present and future.

A plot point that is not forgotten about. Since it was brought up again shortly before the TOP.

Which has nothing to do with Broly since he never existed when both statements are made

If Beerus has been up scaled in the series, then anyone who scales with him gets up scaled as well.

Meaning unless Moro is > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Cause it's as you said, next enemies are usually stronger UNLESS it's Beerus, and with Broly scaling to that exception, Broly himself becomes an exception.

Broly is not the prophetic Saiyan to become a rival for Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are. Broly is not an exception to the rule at all.

Obviously not considering that Broly never existed in the main series back then lol

Broly exits now. The prophecy [which is for the future] does not have the Saiyan Broly as a rival for Beerus but the Saiyan Goku. Broly is surpassed by Moro.

[Hugo Boss]

I think you can work around Goku’s assessment of Broli and Beerus’ strength, because Goku doesn’t know how strong Beerus truly is (Beerus purposefully kept his true strength hidden from Goku). And there is that prophecy. So, between Goku and Oracle Fish, I think the latter is more reliable right now.

Goku saw Beerus FP in the manga, the series needs to prove Goku assessment wrong

I don’t recal that. But anyway, Broli is part of the cast now and, so far, neither him nor Moro have been claimed to be potential rivals for Beerus in the manga. Goku’s assessment is probably based on the last time they fought, which already addresses why Goku might be off in this comparison.

[Dragon Wukong]

I don’t recal that. But anyway, Broli is part of the cast now and, so far, neither him nor Moro have been claimed to be potential rivals for Beerus in the manga. Goku’s assessment is probably based on the last time they fought, which already addresses why Goku might be off in this comparison.

Goku was there during the GoD tournament in the manga. They even comment on Beerus having to use his full power, and by the end he was bruised, beaten and bloody. Goku's statement that Broly is stronger, at least in the manga's continuity, can be assumed accurate.

Whether or not Moro is the strongest opponent so far depends on how Fusion compares to Ultra Instinct at the moment, which is ambiguous without a definite answer. The likely options in how they scale to each other are likely either 'Broly > Beerus > Moro', 'Moro > Broly > Beerus', or 'Broly > Moro > Beerus'.

The thing that makes it difficult is Jiren in the manga is never compared to Beerus, only Belmod. But it's likely Jiren was intended to be a signifier that Goku pulled ahead of Beerus by Toriyama anyhow. But things change constantly, so without any statements, who knows.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Yes, the prophecy stated the Super Saiyan god is the rival appearing in 39 years. However, SSG was no where near a rival for Beerus. That's why narration also said Goku and Vegeta will become an arch rival. The prophecy was for the present and future.

A plot point that is not forgotten about. Since it was brought up again shortly before the TOP.

Which has nothing to do with Broly since he never existed when both statements are made

Broly is not the prophetic Saiyan to become a rival for Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are. Broly is not an exception to the rule at all.

Obviously not considering that Broly never existed in the main series back then lol

Broly exits now. The prophecy [which is for the future] does not have the Saiyan Broly as a rival for Beerus but the Saiyan Goku. Broly is surpassed by Moro.

Broly existing now doesn't equate to him existing in the past lol seriously superstar, don't get desperate now. The prophecy doesn't include Broly if Akira haven't even thought of him yet lol plus remember who wrote the movie Superstar, it was Akira, and guess who wrote him to say that statement lol it was akira.

[FishermanJohnWest]

I think you can work around Goku’s assessment of Broli and Beerus’ strength, because Goku doesn’t know how strong Beerus truly is (Beerus purposefully kept his true strength hidden from Goku). And there is that prophecy. So, between Goku and Oracle Fish, I think the latter is more reliable right now.

Goku saw Beerus FP in the manga, the series needs to prove Goku assessment wrong

I don’t recal that. But anyway, Broli is part of the cast now and, so far, neither him nor Moro have been claimed to be potential rivals for Beerus in the manga. Goku’s assessment is probably based on the last time they fought, which already addresses why Goku might be off in this comparison.

Broly has been claimed in novel, guide and movie. So that's clearly false

Last time Goku fought ? When he fought him as a SSJG from 5 arcs ago ? Seriously ? Cause Ikari Broly alone ripped apart a far stronger SSJG Goku

[Hugo Boss]

They even comment on Beerus having to use his full power, and by the end he was bruised, beaten and bloody.

This is one of the rules of their test fight, but it doesn’t mean Beerus showed everything he got.

Broly has been claimed in novel, guide and movie. So that's clearly false

Last time Goku fought ? When he fought him as a SSJG from 5 arcs ago ? Seriously ? Cause Ikari Broly alone ripped apart a far stronger SSJG Goku

Care to explain in which novel and guide? I’ve only seen Goku talking about it in the movie. So far, in the movie continuity, Beerus only fought recently in Battle of Gods.

[Skar]

Care to explain in which novel and guide? I’ve only seen Goku talking about it in the movie. So far, in the movie continuity, Beerus only fought recently in Battle of Gods.

Some translations for the novel can be read here:

"I was pretty confident in my own strength, but then the stronger Broly showed up. And what's more, he's Saiyan, just like me. He's probably even stronger than Beerus. And Beerus is a God!"

Goku could be proven wrong later but there's not really a need to include such a specific line if it was intended to be false. It could've been a more general statement about Broly's huge power without bringing up Beerus. It's the same with Shin questioning if Blue Vegetto might've been stronger than Beerus. We could argue Shin might not know how powerful Beerus is at full power but why confuse fans and just not mention Beerus. These statements line up with Blue Gogeta being above Broly who somewhere around Beerus' strength.

[Miracles]

Which has nothing to do with Broly since he never existed when both statements are made

Obviously not considering that Broly never existed in the main series back then lol

Broly exits now. The prophecy [which is for the future] does not have the Saiyan Broly as a rival for Beerus but the Saiyan Goku. Broly is surpassed by Moro.

Broly existing now doesn't equate to him existing in the past lol seriously superstar, don't get desperate now. The prophecy doesn't include Broly if Akira haven't even thought of him yet lol plus remember who wrote the movie Superstar, it was Akira, and guess who wrote him to say that statement lol it was akira.

That's right, Broly isn't apart of the prophecy, Goku is.
Broly is not the one to be a formidable rival for Beerus, it is Goku.
That's because Broly is surpassed by Moro, which is a fact.

[ZombieVito]

Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do.

Doesn't this kinda imply Broly isn't dozens of times stronger than Freeza? Maybe Ikari and Super Saiyan don't stack until his hair is Green like I have theorized before?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do.

Doesn't this kinda imply Broly isn't dozens of times stronger than Freeza? Maybe Ikari and Super Saiyan don't stack until his hair is Green like I have theorized before?

But then how would that explain Super Saiyan Broly and Gogeta going at it relatively evenly despite Gogeta's base form performing similarly to SSB Goku and Vegeta individually, if not better? He was able to outpace and dodge/deflect blasts a whole lot better than them; he only didn't go on the offence.

Their even battle would suggest Super Saiyan DOES stack on Ikari. Though maybe Golden Freeza is now strong enough to make Broly put in more effort than SSB?

[ZombieVito]

But then how would that explain Super Saiyan Broly and Gogeta going at it relatively evenly despite Gogeta's base form performing similarly to SSB Goku and Vegeta individually, if not better? He was able to outpace and dodge/deflect blasts a whole lot better than them; he only didn't go on the offence.

Their even battle would suggest Super Saiyan DOES stack on Ikari. Though maybe Golden Freeza is now strong enough to make Broly put in more effort than SSB?

Base Gogeta just dodged and blocked. We have other examples where a weaker character can evade or block attacks from a stronger foe as current as the ToP arc.

We also don't have any concrete proof that Freeza surpassed Goku and Vegeta so they should be on par just like at the ToP since that was the status quo.