Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[MyVisionity]

Gohan was just almost beaten to death and Gohan's acting cordial with Vegeta? Vegeta flew off at the end of the last episode and now he's on the ground and no one thinks that's weird.

I don't think Gohan's attitude was unusual. These guys are beaten up all the time so it's not a huge deal. I think it fits Gohan's personality, plus Vegeta had just helped them out with the wishes.

As for Vegeta flying off, I just assumed that he came back sometime later after cooling down. Why would anyone have a problem with it?

I don't buy that for a second. He just got beaten almost to death and minutes later he's telling him thank you? What moment can you point to where Gohan reacts similarly?

I see Gohan as being a kinder and gentler soul that wouldn't hold grudges just because of a beatdown. Especially when it's someone that he has fought alongside with, and also previously fought against. Plus after Vegeta's help, Gohan is too happy for hard feelings. And his thanking him may have been a way to say "bygones".

Why wouldn't they have a problem with him? He just gloated and nearly beat a child to death. Now they're acting like nothing happened.

They act like nothing happened because it was over by that point. Gohan was healed and everyone had calmed down. Beating a child to death is nothing in their world. And Gohan isn't just a child, he's a more than capable Z-Warrior. He's the one who challenged Vegeta to begin with.

[WittyUsername]

Vegeta’s attitude in that filler scene is definitely out of character. I don’t see how there’s anyway of arguing about that. Yes, Vegeta still hates Goku at that point, but the very next episode establishes that he wants Goku alive, so that he could be the one to defeat him. It’s a complete 180 that’s never addressed.

[ABED]

Vegeta’s attitude in that filler scene is definitely out of character. I don’t see how there’s anyway of arguing about that. Yes, Vegeta still hates Goku at that point, but the very next episode establishes that he wants Goku alive, so that he could be the one to defeat him. It’s a complete 180 that’s never addressed.

People very often will have an immediate gut reaction, think about it, then have a "change of heart". I don't know how anyone can argue against that except if they don't do any honest introspection. It's not a 180 that needs addressing because it's not some giant change of heart that audiences need spelled out for them. We get it, in the heat of the moment, Vegeta appreciates the irony of how he became the strongest.

I see Gohan as being a kinder and gentler soul that wouldn't hold grudges just because of a beatdown.

This isn't a grudge. It literally just happened to him. I don't expect him to hold a grudge but jeez I would expect him to act like any normal person and not act like he wasn't just beaten to death. And vegeta didn't fight along side him because they had a common cause. They fought for survival.

Give me an example where he did anything remotely like this.

Beating a child to death is nothing in their world.

No it isnt! What show are you watching?

[MyVisionity]

I see Gohan as being a kinder and gentler soul that wouldn't hold grudges just because of a beatdown.

This isn't a grudge. It literally just happened to him. I don't expect him to hold a grudge but jeez I would expect him to act like any normal person and not act like he wasn't just beaten to death. And vegeta didn't fight along side him because they had a common cause. They fought for survival.

Give me an example where he did anything remotely like this.

I don't have any examples, since it's not a circumstance that had ever occurred prior to that point. It's more about Gohan's personality. He doesn't seem like the type to be bothered by such things. Or certainly not the type to withhold genuine gratitude because of it.

They were fighting for survival but they were still fighting together. They had been through some real battles together and that's going to affect how a person feels about someone.

Beating a child to death is nothing in their world.

No it isnt! What show are you watching?

It's a show that's all about kids fighting in the heat of battle with full grown adults. Children getting beaten up is just another day for these guys. They are super powered martial artists who live in extra-ordinary circumstances. Maybe if Vegeta had actually killed Gohan, it would be a thing. Or if Dende weren't around to heal him. Or if Vegeta were a stranger. But otherwise, it's like why bother?

[Matches Malone]

Wikipedia contributors do better than this.

Telling someone what they can and can't post isn't much better either.

[Skar]

I would say it's obvious Super will go past the End of Z eventually. Uub was mentioned during the ToP arc, and the writers are not stupid, they don't do things randomly. If Uub of all people is mentioned in the middle of a completely unrelated arc, then it's clear the writers are setting something up. It's not a matter of if, but when (after Moro arc?).

If I had a zeni for every time a fan predicted the story will finally jump past EoZ after the next arc, I would have six zeni (one for each arc after BoG including Broly). Do fans believe Toriyama is lying when he explains why he doesn't want to go past EoZ or are they hope he'll change his mind?

[Asmo]

I would say it's obvious Super will go past the End of Z eventually. Uub was mentioned during the ToP arc, and the writers are not stupid, they don't do things randomly. If Uub of all people is mentioned in the middle of a completely unrelated arc, then it's clear the writers are setting something up. It's not a matter of if, but when (after Moro arc?).

If I had a zeni for every time a fan predicted the story will finally jump past EoZ after the next arc, I would have six zeni (one for each arc after BoG including Broly). Do fans believe Toriyama is lying when he explains why he doesn't want to go past EoZ or are they hope he'll change his mind?

Probably the latter. I think people think that because Toyotaro and the 'Dragonball Room' are factors nowadays the series will go past EoZ. At the same time, Toriyama still provides the initial concepts and/or gives consent.

[Skar]

Probably the latter. I think people think that because Toyotaro and the 'Dragonball Room' are factors nowadays the series will go past EoZ. At the same time, Toriyama still provides the initial concepts and/or gives consent.

Yeah that might be the reason. The head of the Dragon Ball Room said
I also had another thought, which was that Dragon Ball is the work of Toriyama-sensei, so we need to continue having him involved up ahead. No matter how much we say, “We want to make a movie,” if Toriyama-sensei says “No,” it ends there… Well, hypothetically speaking; that’s not to say that Toriyama-sensei doesn’t want to do it. (laughs)

The way I understood it is that the DB room was created to help Toriyama not continue the series without him. I know some fans want it to happen but I can't consider it a likely prediction since it seems to go against what's been said.

[Matches Malone]

I think people think that because Toyotaro and the 'Dragonball Room' are factors nowadays, the series will go past EoZ.

I think it's worth mentioning that Toriyama made that statement back in 2006, 14 years ago. Toriyama also refused to get involved in new material back in 2008 (which is why we got Kai), but that changed 3 years later in 2011 when he was shown the first draft for BOG. I think if Toriyama or someone involved comes up with a good enough idea, things will move past this 10 year gap. There's also the fact that everyone involved want to keep things as familiar as possible, so there's that to take into account as well.

The DB room was created to help Toriyama, not continue the series without him. I know some fans want it to happen, but I can't consider it a likely prediction since it seems to go against what's been said.

I agree for the time being, but I just can't see Toriyama being involved forever, especially with him saying that he hopes DB will live on without him. Based on Toyotaro's increased role in Super over the years, I think he's being set to take over everything.

[SupremeKai25]

I would say it's obvious Super will go past the End of Z eventually. Uub was mentioned during the ToP arc, and the writers are not stupid, they don't do things randomly. If Uub of all people is mentioned in the middle of a completely unrelated arc, then it's clear the writers are setting something up. It's not a matter of if, but when (after Moro arc?).

If I had a zeni for every time a fan predicted the story will finally jump past EoZ after the next arc, I would have six zeni (one for each arc after BoG including Broly). Do fans believe Toriyama is lying when he explains why he doesn't want to go past EoZ or are they hope he'll change his mind?

Ok then, Uub was mentioned in the ToP arc just because the writers like the name Uub, there was no deeper meaning, and in 10 years when the manga is still making ton of cash and the anime has most likely returned we will still be in that time period. Because that makes more sense.

I think it's worth mentioning that Toriyama made that statement back in 2006, 14 years ago.

You people could have at least mentioned Toriyama said that back in 2006. You really think he hasn't changed his mind one bit since then? A lot of stuff has been going on in the franchise since 2006...

[Skar]

I think it's worth mentioning that Toriyama made that statement back in 2006, 14 years ago. Toriyama also refused to get involved in new material back in 2008 (which is why we got Kai), but that changed 3 years later in 2011 when he was shown the first draft for BOG. I think if Toriyama or someone involved comes up with a good enough idea, things will move past this 10 year gap. There's also the fact that everyone involved want to keep things as familiar as possible, so there's that to take into account as well.

What statements are you referring to from 2006? I was only talking about post-BoG interviews. He explained why he chose this timeskip for BoG and it applied to every storyline afterwards since we're still within this time period. In the 30th anniversary interview, he said he updated the Kanzenban ending to make it more clear that was the end of Goku's story. Have we gotten any statements from anyone involved that imply he changed his opinion since then?

I agree for the time being, but I just can't see Toriyama being involved forever, especially with him saying that he hopes DB will live on without him. Based on Toyotaro's increased role in Super over the years, I think he's being set to take over everything.

Like I've said, I'll have to wait and see if DB is going to continue without Toriyama. It being possible isn't really enough for me to believe they're all going to change their mind or that it's going to be a rare exception to this revival trend.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I think it's worth mentioning that Toriyama made that statement back in 2006, 14 years ago. Toriyama also refused to get involved in new material back in 2008 (which is why we got Kai), but that changed 3 years later in 2011 when he was shown the first draft for BOG. I think if Toriyama or someone involved comes up with a good enough idea, things will move past this 10 year gap. There's also the fact that everyone involved want to keep things as familiar as possible, so there's that to take into account as well.

What statements are you referring to from 2006? I was only talking about post-BoG interviews. He explained why he chose this timeskip for BoG and it applied to every storyline afterwards since we're still within this time period. In the 30th anniversary interview, he said he updated the Kanzenban ending to make it more clear that was the end of Goku's story. Have we gotten any statements from anyone involved that imply he changed his opinion since then?

No, I don't think we have - Toriyama's been fairly consistent in saying that as far as he's concerned, the main cast would be too old by this point. And there've been various indications that he's been distancing himself somewhat even from the things we currently have (though he's definitely still giving storyline input of some sort).

But then, I don't think that serves as an obstacle from Matches Malone's point of view, as he's been quite vocally supportive of a successor series that cuts out the original heroes and focuses on the next generation (Uub, Pan, Trunks, Goten). Really, then, it's just a question of whether that in itself is wishful thinking or not, which is anyone's guess.

[Matches Malone]

What statements are you referring to from 2006?

I'll have to wait and see if DB is going to continue without Toriyama. It being possible isn't really enough for me to believe they're all going to change their mind.

It's in one of the guidebooks from around that time. He said that he wouldn't mind seeing stories set within the 10 year gap, as the characters might be too old for anything post EOZ.

I'm not talking about them changing their minds, but rather Toriyama himself. I personally think Toriyama will be involved for the next 3-5 years, but will he still want to be in his late 60s-early 70s ? I think he'll be open to checking other people's work and given slight corrections here and there, but I'm not sure if he'll be the one coming up with the stories that late in his life.

I don't think that serves as an obstacle from Matches Malone's point of view, as he's been quite vocally supportive of a successor series that cuts out the original heroes and focuses on the next generation (Uub, Pan, Trunks, Goten). Really, then, it's just a question of whether that in itself is wishful thinking or not, which is anyone's guess.

I don't want them cut out, but rather take a back seat to newer characters. You can still have threats that only Goku and Vegeta can handle, but I'd like a show that switches between the old and newer gen of characters to keep things fresh. In terms of the idea being wishful thinking or not, overall it is, but with Boruto doing that same thing, anything's possible.

[Skar]

But then, I don't think that serves as an obstacle from Matches Malone's point of view, as he's been quite vocally supportive of a successor series that cuts out the original heroes and focuses on the next generation (Uub, Pan, Trunks, Goten). Really, then, it's just a question of whether that in itself is wishful thinking or not, which is anyone's guess.

I can understand it being wishful thinking but sometimes predictions are claimed to definitive or obvious when many of have been wrong about the future of the series. A lot of them seem to rely on someone involved in the series changing their mind from what they've said before. I just think it's good to make the distinction between what a fan hopes will happen and what they believe will happen based on some form of evidence. It helps to avoid misinformation common in YouTube videos because people might read the forum and assume something is true if it wasn't acknowledged as only an opinion.

The only prediction I feel comfortable making based on some evidence is that the series will be less successful once Toriyama retires going by on what happened with GT and Boruto. The first volume of Boruto sold less than half of Naruto's lowest selling volume. Modern DB relies heavily on fan service and nostalgia like most revivals and that only lasts so long based on examples I've seen. There's also the general trend of long running series that begin to decline and become repetitive the longer they continue. I have to wonder what ideas fans believe DB will offer once Toriyama retires to be an exception to all these trends. That is if they decide to continue it after EoZ. That's only my opinion based on what I've seen for other franchises since I don't know what's going to happen with DB in the future.

[ABED]

I see Gohan as being a kinder and gentler soul that wouldn't hold grudges just because of a beatdown.

This isn't a grudge. It literally just happened to him. I don't expect him to hold a grudge but jeez I would expect him to act like any normal person and not act like he wasn't just beaten to death. And vegeta didn't fight along side him because they had a common cause. They fought for survival.

Give me an example where he did anything remotely like this.

I don't have any examples, since it's not a circumstance that had ever occurred prior to that point. It's more about Gohan's personality. He doesn't seem like the type to be bothered by such things. Or certainly not the type to withhold genuine gratitude because of it.

They were fighting for survival but they were still fighting together. They had been through some real battles together and that's going to affect how a person feels about someone.

Beating a child to death is nothing in their world.

No it isnt! What show are you watching?

It's a show that's all about kids fighting in the heat of battle with full grown adults. Children getting beaten up is just another day for these guys. They are super powered martial artists who live in extra-ordinary circumstances. Maybe if Vegeta had actually killed Gohan, it would be a thing. Or if Dende weren't around to heal him. Or if Vegeta were a stranger. But otherwise, it's like why bother?

Raylan Givens and Boyd Crowder dug coal together and were begrudging allies sometimes, but that didn't stop them from still hating each other. I'm not even saying he wouldn't be grateful but his thank you is so enthusiastic that it wouldn't mesh with what just happened.

Again, the turnaround you're suggesting would be too quick to act like literally nothing happened and to not even comment on what happened or why Vegeta is still around the group. And to top it off, if he flew off only to come back, it's a pretty pathetic look for him.

[kemuri07]

I would say it's obvious Super will go past the End of Z eventually. Uub was mentioned during the ToP arc, and the writers are not stupid, they don't do things randomly. If Uub of all people is mentioned in the middle of a completely unrelated arc, then it's clear the writers are setting something up. It's not a matter of if, but when (after Moro arc?).

If I had a zeni for every time a fan predicted the story will finally jump past EoZ after the next arc, I would have six zeni (one for each arc after BoG including Broly). Do fans believe Toriyama is lying when he explains why he doesn't want to go past EoZ or are they hope he'll change his mind?

They'll never go past EoZ because it isn't profitable for them to do so. GT, despite being controversial, is still regularly used in DB media. More importantly, it takes a lot of pressure off of actually ending things when there's technically two endings to the series at large: EoZ and the GT ending which pretty much serves as a general ending for the entire franchise.

By keeping stories in the 10 year gap, you have enough wiggle room to do whatever the fuck you want while still "adhering" (and yeah I know I'm using the term loosely) to canon.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people already know GT takes place in an alternate continuity, because very clearly it can't be a sequel of Super timeline-wise (where are the destroyers? Where are the angels? Why doesn't Goku just ask Zeno to get rid of Omega Shenron?), so really I don't see how GT sales would do any worse if Super went past the End of Z. Certainly GT fanboys already know that Super and GT can't exist in the same continuity?

[Skar]

They'll never go past EoZ because it isn't profitable for them to do so. GT, despite being controversial, is still regularly used in DB media. More importantly, it takes a lot of pressure off of actually ending things when there's technically two endings to the series at large: EoZ and the GT ending which pretty much serves as a general ending for the entire franchise.

By keeping stories in the 10 year gap, you have enough wiggle room to do whatever the fuck you want while still "adhering" (and yeah I know I'm using the term loosely) to canon.

That's what I'm hoping for . Not that I'm a big fan of GT but I am a fan of retaining the original ending when it comes to revivals unless it's a standalone movie. These storylines could've easily taken place after EoZ so the only reason they take place before is because that's what Toriyama wanted. DB had ten sagas depending on how you divide them while DBS already has seven. They're simpler, shorter stories but still seven different main antagonists. What's the point of having so many take place before EoZ if the plan to skip past it? Toriyama is struggling with ideas since some came as suggestions so they might run out by the time they reach EoZ.

The only reason to go past EoZ would be if Toriyama changed his mind and decided to make a sequel about the next generation. He doesn't care enough about the current next generation to involve them in the story or age them so it's unlikely he'll suddenly want to make them the focus later. It was established in EoZ that Goten and Trunks lost interest in training so a NG sequel would probably only feature Uub and Pan. I don't see them carry a series for long unless it's a repeat of GT with Goku in the lead and they're supporting characters.

They've been playing it safe so I don't see them taking that big of a risk especially since NG sequels are rarely as successful as their predecessors or maybe never because I can't think of any. I don't think Jojo's Bizarre Adventure counts because it was established as a generational story early on and technically it's only one big arc per generation. It's different than a long running series changing the main character for a sequel that lasts for several arcs. Toriyama already tried it once and decided to go back to Goku.

[Adamant]

Fairly sure some interview mentioned that the reason GT started to pop up in video games was largely because they discovered that apparently westerners actually liked that stuff. But while it makes sense to go "hey, these characters we thought nobody cared about actually have a fanbase somewhere, let's throw them into these video games", it makes a lot less sense to start dragging that stuff into TV series and movies where it will actually take center stage instead of being just a couple extra characters and story modes on the side.

There's never been ANY GT-only video games outside of that one western-made one because the fanbase for GT stuff just isn't big enough to get dedicated products like that.

[Skar]

There's never been ANY GT-only video games outside of that one western-made one because the fanbase for GT stuff just isn't big enough to get dedicated products like that.

There was also GT: Transformation, sequel to the Legacy of Goku series, but that was a pretty minor game for GBA. Do we know how involved Toriyama was with DBO? I know he worked on character designs but I'm not sure how involved he was with it's timeline. That could be what he considers happening to the cast Post-EoZ which wasn't a whole lot and fits with why he chose all these recent stories to take place before. Goku and Vegeta have a final battle in space when they sense they're near the end of their lives, Gohan writes a book on the science of ki, Goten and Trunks open up a martial arts school, and Uub isn't mentioned at all so I guess he returns to his village after hos training ends.