Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

Also, Beerus is literally standing watching MUI Goku fight and complimenting his progress, he isn't afraid of Goku surpassing him or jealous of the progress he has made. Beerus is shown to be fearful of those who surpass him

I've seen this argument a couple of times, and I'm not sure where it comes from, because it lacks consistency. Beerus completely freaks out the first time Goku attains to Omen in the Tournament of Power, but is perfectly calm when he achieves (the more powerful) True Ultra Instinct.

Whatever conclusion one draws about Beerus's power, I don't see how his reactions to Ultra Instinct give us much of a reliable indication to that end.

[JewyB]

Also, Beerus is literally standing watching MUI Goku fight and complimenting his progress, he isn't afraid of Goku surpassing him or jealous of the progress he has made. Beerus is shown to be fearful of those who surpass him

I've seen this argument a couple of times, and I'm not sure where it comes from, because it lacks consistency. Beerus completely freaks out the first time Goku attains to Omen in the Tournament of Power, but is perfectly calm when he achieves (the more powerful) True Ultra Instinct.

Whatever conclusion one draws about Beerus's power, I don't see how his reactions to Ultra Instinct give us much of a reliable indication to that end.

I disagree, having just rechecked the chapter, Beerus is shocked that Goku unlocks UIO, then he is frustrated he has mastered it before him, he has one frame of shock which i wouldnt consider completely freaking out. The next chapter also starts with Beerus lamenting Goku screwing up, so that's basically three panels of progress, shock -> frustration -> disappointment. I wouldnt say he shows any fear, and only minor amounts of jealousy. The reason he would be calm after is because the shock has worn off.

I feel his reactions are a good indicator, considering that's all we have, and if they aren't then any reaction any character has to any other characters power level would be meaningless too now? Also, Beerus clearly takes issue with people even being considered to be more powerful than he, he reacts much more strongly to being called weak for losing an arm match than he does to Goku at any point ever.

[Skar]

I get around that by piggybacking the LOG scale onto Toriyama’s “God Scale” from BOG, i.e. 10 is 10x 9, 9 is 10x 8, etc. It just about works with more conservative multipliers. SSG is still a 6, SSB is somewhere between a 7 and 8, Beerus is still a 10.

That way, SSB Fusion, UI, Broly, Jiren, etc are all a “10” generally but you can add specificity with each decimal point being a 25% gap. For example, you could have Broly as a 10.1, Gogeta as a 10.2, etc. Those aren’t my exact numbers, but just to give you an idea of my general framework.

That works! It would mean Whis is 100,000 times stronger than Beerus but I like the idea that the Angels are untouchable to mortals no matter how long they train. It makes sense when Beerus is +75 million million years old and still far weaker than him. I also think they training suffers from diminishing returns after a certain point which could fit with how the strongest mortals we've seen in the last few arcs are all within the same ballpark.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I disagree, having just rechecked the chapter, Beerus is shocked that Goku unlocks UIO, then he is frustrated he has mastered it before him, he has one frame of shock which i wouldnt consider completely freaking out. The next chapter also starts with Beerus lamenting Goku screwing up, so that's basically three panels of progress, shock -> frustration -> disappointment. I wouldnt say he shows any fear, and only minor amounts of jealousy. The reason he would be calm after is because the shock has worn off.

I feel his reactions are a good indicator, considering that's all we have, and if they aren't then any reaction any character has to any other characters power level would be meaningless too now? Also, Beerus clearly takes issue with people even being considered to be more powerful than he, he reacts much more strongly to being called weak for losing an arm match than he does to Goku at any point ever.

Firstly, it's more than a single panel - there's 3 on the page where Goku achieves Omen, just for starters. And I wouldn't call literally cradling his head to be a 'minor' reaction of any sort, whatever the emotion one chooses to impute to it.

Secondly, and more to the point - being more shocked by what is weaker than by what is stronger is a clear pointer that Beerus's reactions to Ultra Instinct aren't necessarily a reliable indicator of its power. Hence the problem with how different people interpret reactions.

The series tends to back up vague indicators like this with more concrete stuff (such as statements, or beatdowns) when it wants to make stuff like this clear, and perhaps, in the fullness of time, it may. But just because it's all we have right now doesn't mean it's good for much on its own.

[JewyB]

Firstly, it's more than a single panel - there's 3 on the page where Goku achieves Omen, just for starters. And I wouldn't call literally cradling his head to be a 'minor' reaction of any sort, whatever the emotion one chooses to impute to it.

Sorry thi is a miscommunication here, from my work in comics i consider panels to be collections of frames, its a semantics issue, but i consider those three frames to be part of the same moment, which is what it is meant to convey. And i would consider him grabbing his head in frustration, not cradling his head, this is an interpretation thing so take it as you will. I would consider grabbing your head in frustration to show his frustration in a minor way, not in a major way for someone who, when actually frustrated, destroys planets.

Also, if you google frustration the first images are people in the exact same position as Beerus, it's a common way of emoting frustration.

Secondly, and more to the point - being more shocked by what is weaker than by what is stronger is a clear pointer that Beerus's reactions to Ultra Instinct aren't necessarily a reliable indicator of its power. Hence the problem with how different people interpret reactions.

I'm sorry i'm not following this point, you're saying that Beerus's reaction to powers aren't a reliable indicator? Wouldnt that mean any comments Shin or Goku made just as unreliable, moreso since i would consider Beerus to more accurately assess his own maximum power potential than two people who haven't witnessed him go all out except in the situation i described, where he was fighting people on his level, which makes it harder to judge.

The series tends to back up vague indicators like this with more concrete stuff (such as statements, or beatdowns) when it wants to make stuff like this clear, and perhaps, in the fullness of time, it may.

How the series used to handle things =/= How it handles them now, but that isn't relevant anyway, whats relevant is this:

But just because it's all we have right now doesn't mean it's good for much on its own.

You are basically saying "there may be evidence, and but i dont like it so i'd rather go with the lack of evidence on the other side" seemingly.

[Thani]

Just my one cent here:

Spoiler:

Beerus was legitimately shocked when he saw Sign. But then was like that when Goku completed it. Overall I don't think he was fearful of it, but was really more like shocked that Goku not only acquired the state but pulled of a advanced form of it before him - which, to me, shows that Beerus doesn't even have Sign.

If I were to complain about one thing, is that Toyotaro botched the previously stabilished characterization of our actors. Beerus wasn't impressed anymore. Jiren, who previosuly were stoic and boasted of never wasting his movements, became increasingly irritated over not hitting his enemy, when he showed no such emotion when Goku did it the first time or when Roshi dodged his blows.

To me, overall, this was one of the weakest chapter of the Super manga.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I'm sorry i'm not following this point, you're saying that Beerus's reaction to powers aren't a reliable indicator? Wouldnt that mean any comments Shin or Goku made just as unreliable, moreso since i would consider Beerus to more accurately assess his own maximum power potential than two people who haven't witnessed him go all out except in the situation i described, where he was fighting people on his level, which makes it harder to judge.

I'm saying that if we were to apply your datum as particularly meaningful on its own, we'd end up inferring that Omen is more powerful than True Ultra Instinct, because Beerus's 'reaction' to Omen is much stronger than his 'reaction' to True Ultra Instinct at any point. Which would be absurd. Hence why I'm saying that reactions on their own don't necessarily count for much, however you may choose to explain them. The fact that you feel the need to explain why you think he reacts that way for one and not the other points up its evidential weakness.

How the series used to handle things =/= How it handles them now

What makes you say that? I'm pretty sure that even now, statements and demonstrated power disparities are still the principal and clearest way the series tends to point up power relationships. We see that SSjB Vegetto is much stronger than merged Zamas because we see the beatdown; we figure he may well be stronger than Beerus because Shin indicates that he thinks it may be so. That seems perfectly in keeping with most of Dragon Ball, to be honest. And it's rather less ambiguous than pursuing a reaction as though it means much.

You are basically saying "there may be evidence, and but i dont like it so i'd rather go with the lack of evidence on the other side" seemingly.

No, I'm saying "The quality of this piece of evidence is pretty poor because of its inherent ambiguity, so people shouldn't hang their hat on it and I'm not sure why they do". I'm certainly open to the idea that the statements made by Shin and Goku may come wrong at some point in the future if they are demonstrated to be, and I'm perfectly willing to believe that Beerus may be more powerful than True Ultra Instinct Goku and Moro, but to do so on the basis of Beerus's reaction to something is really pretty weak.

I'd recommend using other arguments, is all I've ever been saying. Me saying "this argument is poor and can't bear the evidential load you're putting on it" is not tantamount to me saying "I wish to oppose your conclusions". And frankly, I don't mean to be rude, but in the final analysis, finding excuses to dismiss those statements from consideration in favour of an ambiguous reaction, and then saying I'm 'ignoring evidence' because I don't think it amounts to much ("don't like it"), is a little bit rich.

[Miracles]

This is a different circumstance here. No conclusions are given like before. So you are still out of line with the story.

The story is still ongoing so they could possibly be refuted later but I don't see a reason to question them until then. The statements haven't been disputed in any of the arcs after they've been made despite there being opportunities so I find it unlikely Toriyama is waiting to address them in a later arc. If the series ends without anyone questioning these statements, I'm going to assume they were intended to be true.

In almost three arcs after BoG, it was made clear when a new challenge was still weaker than Beerus. Freeza still feared Beerus, Hit was threatened by Champa who was said to be slightly weaker than Beerus, and Goku Black was targeting the Kaioshin to avoid confronting the GoDs. Rather than mislead the audience with intentionally false claims, the story could've just continued with every antagonist still confirmed to be far below Beerus until his rematch with Goku if that ever happens.

Beerus went from FT Blue Vegetto "maybe" being stronger to "probably" weaker than a foe, who needed a stronger Blue fusion, two arcs later. You can ignore these outright facts of Beerus ladder climbing [Due to Toriyama's power escalation] all you want. But you telling me they are all true is a contradiction to reality.

[Koitsukai]

I insist with this, but what would be the point in presenting information to the reader through so-called unrealiable sources that will not be disproven further? On the contrary, in fact we now know Shin wasn't that off the mark, because blue fusion after the ToP is indeed much stronger than someone in the vecinity of Beerus' power like Broly. I guess we can argue the details, like Beerus has a PL of 947 and Vegito Blue was 940, but the authorial intent behind all these statements were to lump these people in Beerus' group.

I mean, it's not like from Vegito Blue to Gogeta Blue we had 3 years in between their introductions making it a real stretch to think Vegito was that close to Gogeta back then, or like Gogeta almost lost to Broly thus he couldn't have been as strong as Beerus by the FT arc. It makes perfect sense seeing how things turned out.

They could've just skipped doing that if the point was NOT to actually tell the reader what the author is going for: introducing power rivalling Beerus. Therefore, arguing that it was said by somebody that in-universe may not have been the best to present said information would be ok if we had a plethora of characters available to assert such assesstment or if later we learn it wasn't like that at all. It's actually Toyo/Tori/Toei making the comparisons.

[JewyB]

I'm saying that if we were to apply your datum as particularly meaningful on its own, we'd end up inferring that Omen is more powerful than True Ultra Instinct, because Beerus's 'reaction' to Omen is much stronger than his 'reaction' to True Ultra Instinct at any point. Which would be absurd. Hence why I'm saying that reactions on their own don't necessarily count for much, however you may choose to explain them. The fact that you feel the need to explain why you think he reacts that way for one and not the other points up its evidential weakness.

I'm actually dropping out of this at this point because iw anted to drop my two cents and not get dragged in, that was all, but i will say this.

Based on this argument everyone should be just as shocked every time Goku transforms super saiyan because the past never happened and doesn't influence reactions in any way at all ever.

And with that, i'm out, peace.

[Thani]

This is a different circumstance here. No conclusions are given like before. So you are still out of line with the story.

The story is still ongoing so they could possibly be refuted later but I don't see a reason to question them until then. The statements haven't been disputed in any of the arcs after they've been made despite there being opportunities so I find it unlikely Toriyama is waiting to address them in a later arc. If the series ends without anyone questioning these statements, I'm going to assume they were intended to be true.

In almost three arcs after BoG, it was made clear when a new challenge was still weaker than Beerus. Freeza still feared Beerus, Hit was threatened by Champa who was said to be slightly weaker than Beerus, and Goku Black was targeting the Kaioshin to avoid confronting the GoDs. Rather than mislead the audience with intentionally false claims, the story could've just continued with every antagonist still confirmed to be far below Beerus until his rematch with Goku if that ever happens.

Beerus went from FT Blue Vegetto "maybe" being stronger to "probably" weaker than a foe, who needed a stronger Blue fusion, two arcs later. You can ignore these outright facts of Beerus ladder climbing [Due to Toriyama's power escalation] all you want. But you telling me they are all true is a contradiction to reality.

I mean, it's consistent. That didn't show Beerus ladder climbing at all.

[Skar]

Beerus went from FT Blue Vegetto "maybe" being stronger to "probably" weaker than a foe, who needed a stronger Blue fusion, two arcs later. You can ignore these outright facts of Beerus ladder climbing [Due to Toriyama's power escalation] all you want. But you telling me they are all true is a contradiction to reality.

I'm still not getting how you see this as a contradiction. We don't have a direct comparison between Vegetto and Broly and only that both were implied to be stronger than Beerus. Vegetto and Broly could be close so Goku and Vegeta improve and Gogeta is stronger than Vegetto from back then.

Beerus: 1
Vegetto: 1.1
Broly: 1.1
Gogeta: +1.2

I don't know what facts I'm ignoring because this is the only conclusion I was able to reach from that information.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Vegito really doesn't contradict anything. Let's assume, for a moment, that Vegito and Gogeta are equal in power if they're both created at the same time without any change between the fusees; that seems to be the main implication currently, and it simplifies matters greatly

SSB Vegito back then was potentially stronger than Beerus.

Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger since then by the point of Broly's movie. Ergo, their Fusion should've gotten stronger as well, correct? That means that the SSB Gogeta would've gotten stronger than this original level, yes? No contradiction there.

The only contradiction is people trying to somehow squish all these characters lately below Beerus despite multiple statements and feats putting them all around this level and power-ups surpassing said level. Jiren, Broly, and maybe Moro seem to be placed in this category of potentially stronger than Beerus with the power-ups that surpassing them, SSB Fusion and Ultra Instinct, DEFINITELY being stronger.

It fits the pattern established thus far and seems consistent across the various DB media. There are foes being introduced that are as strong or maybe stronger than the level of God of Destruction (of which Beerus is a part of and isn't above), but they tend to still fall somewhat short of god-form-using Fusions or Ultra Instinct.

I like it. This is a nice kind of consistency to stick with.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I'm actually dropping out of this at this point because iw anted to drop my two cents and not get dragged in, that was all, but i will say this.

Based on this argument everyone should be just as shocked every time Goku transforms super saiyan because the past never happened and doesn't influence reactions in any way at all ever.

And with that, i'm out, peace.

Well, thanks for taking the time, I appreciate the engagement.

But to address your parting point:

Firstly, Dragon Ball has actually shown characters shocked more than once at merely seeing Goku turn SSj (see: Tenshinhan, when Goku goes SSj for Trunks, and again when he goes SSj against the Androids; his reaction is almost like he's never seen it before) - again, reactions aren't necessarily very telling on their own.

Secondly - really, you must know the difference between demonstrating something already seen again and again, and a previously unseen development on another level to what we've seen previously. While Beerus has seen Omen at the Tournament of Power, he has never seen True Ultra Instinct demonstrated by Goku before.

Thirdly - this would serve just as well to oppose your argument; by Chapter 64, Beerus has already seen True Ultra Instinct from Goku before, so why would he react strongly to it in that instance anyway? Arguing 'reaction' (or lack thereof) to stand for a power relationship isn't a very strong argument because there are a number of possible reasons why a person might react in a certain way (or not react).

I'm not even saying reactions can't tell us anything at all; they're just not typically very strong arguments to determine power relationships when taken in isolation. Something better is desirable.

[Koitsukai]

The only contradiction is people trying to somehow squish all these characters lately below Beerus despite multiple statements and feats putting them all around this level and power-ups surpassing said level.

Yeah, this. I see it as trying to solve an equation starting with the premise that X equals some number of your choice, and accomodating the calculations so that X ends up being the number you decided it had to be.

[Miracles]

The story is still ongoing so they could possibly be refuted later but I don't see a reason to question them until then. The statements haven't been disputed in any of the arcs after they've been made despite there being opportunities so I find it unlikely Toriyama is waiting to address them in a later arc. If the series ends without anyone questioning these statements, I'm going to assume they were intended to be true.

In almost three arcs after BoG, it was made clear when a new challenge was still weaker than Beerus. Freeza still feared Beerus, Hit was threatened by Champa who was said to be slightly weaker than Beerus, and Goku Black was targeting the Kaioshin to avoid confronting the GoDs. Rather than mislead the audience with intentionally false claims, the story could've just continued with every antagonist still confirmed to be far below Beerus until his rematch with Goku if that ever happens.

Beerus went from FT Blue Vegetto "maybe" being stronger to "probably" weaker than a foe, who needed a stronger Blue fusion, two arcs later. You can ignore these outright facts of Beerus ladder climbing [Due to Toriyama's power escalation] all you want. But you telling me they are all true is a contradiction to reality.

I mean, it's consistent. That didn't show Beerus ladder climbing at all.

Beerus went from FT Blue Vegetto "maybe" being stronger to "probably" weaker than a foe, who needed a stronger Blue fusion, two arcs later. You can ignore these outright facts of Beerus ladder climbing [Due to Toriyama's power escalation] all you want. But you telling me they are all true is a contradiction to reality.

I'm still not getting how you see this as a contradiction.We don't have a direct comparison between Vegetto and Broly and only that both were implied to be stronger than Beerus. Vegetto and Broly could be close so Goku and Vegeta improve and Gogeta is stronger than Vegetto from back then.

Beerus: 1
Vegetto: 1.1
Broly: 1.1
Gogeta: +1.2

I don't know what facts I'm ignoring because this is the only conclusion I was able to reach from that information.

Broly needed a fusion stronger than Vegetto to beat him. That alone shows Broly is stronger than Vegetto.
The enemy raised the power scaling ceiling that high. Due to Toriyama's narrative.
The story doesn't even know if this enemy who boosted the power ladder is stronger than Beerus.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The story doesn't even know if this enemy who boosted the power ladder is stronger than Beerus.

"probably (prɒbəbli; adverb) almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell."

[Thani]

Beerus went from FT Blue Vegetto "maybe" being stronger to "probably" weaker than a foe, who needed a stronger Blue fusion, two arcs later. You can ignore these outright facts of Beerus ladder climbing [Due to Toriyama's power escalation] all you want. But you telling me they are all true is a contradiction to reality.

I mean, it's consistent. That didn't show Beerus ladder climbing at all.

Beerus went from FT Blue Vegetto "maybe" being stronger to "probably" weaker than a foe, who needed a stronger Blue fusion, two arcs later. You can ignore these outright facts of Beerus ladder climbing [Due to Toriyama's power escalation] all you want. But you telling me they are all true is a contradiction to reality.

I'm still not getting how you see this as a contradiction.We don't have a direct comparison between Vegetto and Broly and only that both were implied to be stronger than Beerus. Vegetto and Broly could be close so Goku and Vegeta improve and Gogeta is stronger than Vegetto from back then.

Beerus: 1
Vegetto: 1.1
Broly: 1.1
Gogeta: +1.2

I don't know what facts I'm ignoring because this is the only conclusion I was able to reach from that information.

Broly needed a fusion stronger than Vegetto to beat him. That alone shows Broly is stronger than Vegetto.
The enemy raised the power scaling ceiling that high. Due to Toriyama's narrative.

That alone shows Broly is stronger than FT Vegito, yes. Which is consistent with Broly being probably stronger than Beerus as well.

[Miracles]

The story doesn't even know if this enemy who boosted the power ladder is stronger than Beerus.

"probably (prɒbəbli; adverb) almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell."

Still not fact.

I mean, it's consistent. That didn't show Beerus ladder climbing at all.

I'm still not getting how you see this as a contradiction.We don't have a direct comparison between Vegetto and Broly and only that both were implied to be stronger than Beerus. Vegetto and Broly could be close so Goku and Vegeta improve and Gogeta is stronger than Vegetto from back then.

Beerus: 1
Vegetto: 1.1
Broly: 1.1
Gogeta: +1.2

I don't know what facts I'm ignoring because this is the only conclusion I was able to reach from that information.

Broly needed a fusion stronger than Vegetto to beat him. That alone shows Broly is stronger than Vegetto.
The enemy raised the power scaling ceiling that high. Due to Toriyama's narrative.

That alone shows Broly is stronger than FT Vegito, yes. Which is consistent with Broly being probably stronger than Beerus as well.

It isn't. Since Broly is stronger than Vegetto but only "probably" stronger than someone "maybe" weaker than Vegetto in Beerus.

lol

[Magnificent Ponta]

The story doesn't even know if this enemy who boosted the power ladder is stronger than Beerus.

"probably (prɒbəbli; adverb) almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell."

Still not fact.

But something Goku is pretty certain of, at this point in the story. Or would you like to dispute that point?