The treatment of Vegeta in modern dragonball, good or bad?

[JewyB]

I would say the main issues are that he still is obsessed with Goku (to an extent at least) and overall acts very stupid in the manga by literally forgetting Moro's magic. I understand he has always been flawed but these two bother me heavily. One can regress, but the issue is Vegeta doesn't seem like he wants to change his obsession. Hell, he seems to be completely ignorant of how much of a detriment it is to his character. Him acknowledging his obsession and realizing how flawed his thinking has always been is just forgotten at this point in the manga from what I can tell. Regression isn't necessarily bad, in here it is handled bad though. But otherwise, I think he is ok.

I do think it has changed though, i think now Goku and Vegeta have a much healthier rivalry than beforehand, they train together, fight together, and actually spend time with each other not training. Before Vegeta was only about beating Goku, now he's about beating him, but it's no longer his sole obsession. I mean, he even refused training so he could stay for the birth of his child, whereas Buu arc Vegeta was willing to give up everything for the chance to surpass Goku.

Also, early Vegeta was "Kakarot got Super Saiyan? Damnit I DESERVE SUPER SAIYAN!" whereas now he's like "Kakarot got UI? Good for him, not for me, i got my own, Kakarotless path these days".

It's subtle but its not as unhealthy these days, at least, that's my takeaway from it.

The magic was just bad writing to drag the arc out so i dont blame Vegeta's characterisation for that, just Toyo having very few ideas for making Moro an actual threat.

[Kinokima]

The magic was just bad writing to drag the arc out so i dont blame Vegeta's characterisation for that, just Toyo having very few ideas for making Moro an actual threat.

This! I don’t really see how Vegeta was at fault for what happened with Moro. The story just dictated he lost and that Moro still had an ace up his sleeve . Vegeta didn’t lose because of his ego.

Cell becoming Perfect was Vegeta’s fault because he let it happen. If Vegeta had said oh you think you can still beat me with your magic let’s see it then. Then that would have been Vegeta’s fault. But that’s not what happened at all. In fact Vegeta had previously called out Moro for only being able to rely on other characters powers.

[TheQuestioner]

I would say the main issues are that he still is obsessed with Goku (to an extent at least) and overall acts very stupid in the manga by literally forgetting Moro's magic. I understand he has always been flawed but these two bother me heavily. One can regress, but the issue is Vegeta doesn't seem like he wants to change his obsession. Hell, he seems to be completely ignorant of how much of a detriment it is to his character. Him acknowledging his obsession and realizing how flawed his thinking has always been is just forgotten at this point in the manga from what I can tell. Regression isn't necessarily bad, in here it is handled bad though. But otherwise, I think he is ok.

I do think it has changed though, i think now Goku and Vegeta have a much healthier rivalry than beforehand, they train together, fight together, and actually spend time with each other not training. Before Vegeta was only about beating Goku, now he's about beating him, but it's no longer his sole obsession. I mean, he even refused training so he could stay for the birth of his child, whereas Buu arc Vegeta was willing to give up everything for the chance to surpass Goku.

Also, early Vegeta was "Kakarot got Super Saiyan? Damnit I DESERVE SUPER SAIYAN!" whereas now he's like "Kakarot got UI? Good for him, not for me, i got my own, Kakarotless path these days".

It's subtle but its not as unhealthy these days, at least, that's my takeaway from it.

The magic was just bad writing to drag the arc out so i dont blame Vegeta's characterisation for that, just Toyo having very few ideas for making Moro an actual threat.

I don't recall of them spending time not training or doing anything signifcant in the manga. I'm uncertain of the anime. I do agree that Vegeta has changed though. It's just the flaw is still very glaring as Vegeta just seems to ignore it when he shouldn't. But yes, that's my takeaway too.

I still hold Vegeta forgetting the Magic as bad character and story writing. I understand Toyoutaro put himself in a corner, but out of every possible scenario it had to be because Vegeta did not finish Moro off quickly since he was busy talking about how he wasn't naive like Goku and because he magically forgot about Moro's Magic, the skillset he literally trained to counter. It really hit the wrong way because of the context and could've been handled much better.

[BWri]

My issue with Vegeta is really just an overall issue with modern DB that they don’t know where to take these characters.

That's because there isn't anywhere to take them, their arcs were concluded in the original manga. I think they did a great job in BOG with pushing things forward, but that was about it. You can get away with one or two more stories, but anything more and you just end up with more of the same.

I never understood the argument that there's nowhere to take a character when there are essentially endless paths a character can take. To anyone who hears statements like this, they are patently false. The only limitation in this situation is imagination. It's especially true when you consider how simple each of these character arcs have been. There's so much more mileage to be had with just about everyone. You just have to expand them ... which is the purpose of a character arc.

As if a person only has one arc in their life. WTH!?

[Matches Malone]

I never understood the argument that there's nowhere to take a character, The only limitation in this situation is imagination.

Don't we still end up with the same result ? Toriyama only had certain ideas in mind for them, and once they were complete, the characters were either pushed to the side or went in circles.

[Psajdak]

I wish Vegeta kept his promise of never fighting again at the end of Cell saga.

[Matches Malone]

I wish Vegeta kept his promise of never fighting again at the end of Cell saga.

We would've missed out on so much character development in the Buu arc.

[Psajdak]

We would've missed out on so much character development in the Buu arc.

What character development?

Vegeta returns to his dick self, only to suddenly becomes some sacrificial antihero.

[JewyB]

We would've missed out on so much character development in the Buu arc.

What character development?

Vegeta returns to his dick self, only to suddenly becomes some sacrificial antihero.

There's a very good oversimplification of the character development you're pretending doesn't exist?

[Kataphrut]

I've not been fond of him in most modern Dragon Ball. I think it's kept him very stale by falling back on the same tropes and character beats multiple times. Toriyama still does him best in the movies, but I notice he does that by making Vegeta pretty much a satellite to Goku. If you rewatch Resurrection F and Broly in particular, notice how despite the premise of both of those movies being something Vegeta should be heavily invested in, he never has any emotional reaction to what's going on except when he's being flustered by Goku's stupidity. All Toriyama uses him for is to be Goku's grumpy best bud.

Ordinarily that would be pretty lame in and of itself, but it's better in comparison to the bouts of self-righteousness he got in the anime and manga. The most interesting angle to come out of those were his attempts at branching off from Goku's path, but all that got us was sparkle blue and Spirit Fission which were both duds. They might still turn that around, but at this point nothing he does holds a candle to Ultra Instinct so why bother?

[BWri]

I never understood the argument that there's nowhere to take a character, The only limitation in this situation is imagination.

Don't we still end up with the same result ? Toriyama only had certain ideas in mind for them, and once they were complete, the characters were either pushed to the side or went in circles.

It's true that Toriyama-san is limited in how he writes, but that doesn't mean that there is nowhere else to take a character. He literally just has to give them something new to pursue or introduce something from their past. There are gaps in the histories of every character in the show. He gave the characters like one or two simple arcs and people think they're washed up or something.

[Block88]

Yes compared to the others vegeta been treated like a god Just behind goku anyone arguing otherwise is delusional

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, Vegeta's had it pretty good. Where Goku remains his usual self, Vegeta has had some nice subtle and unsubtle developments.

BoG and RoF showed that his rivalry with Goku was no longer an obsession that endangered everyone, but instead something he used to further drive himself to be stronger and better as a martial artist. This particular trend continued throughout DBS, with the 2 of them getting downright chummy at times in spite of Vegeta being a bit of a grump in comparison. We also see how he becomes more of a family-oriented man, openly and not-so-openly showing affection for his family.

In the following arcs, we see some really major Vegeta developments, namely his mentor-student relationship with Cabba and becoming a full-fledged hero dedicated to helping his alternate timeline son no matter the odds.

The ToP doesn't have much new, but it's more about showing the culmination of all of these small developments. Bra becomes a central focus to him above even training and fighting, his relationship with Cabba becomes even more emotionally resonant, and his pride in himself and his loved ones propels him to new heights in a way that's entirely his own.

That part is what really sticks out. Before, he used to always chase after Goku. And for the first half of DBS, he was still kinda like that. But later on, he becomes more independent and ultimate seeks out his own path of becoming stronger, in turn also becoming a more respectable martial artist because of it.

[precita]

He's the second best treated character in Super after Goku by a fairly large margin. Nobody else comes close.