"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kinokima]

The arc is it at its climax so it probably is ending soon. However I can’t see how they are going to get out of this without a deus ex machina so not expecting anything from the ending anymore except disappointment

Vegeta’s power can still be used to separate but he isn’t powerful enough so there is that. And I am not even sure UI Goku is enough now. I just wanted the two of them to work together using what they learned but nooooo

[Jack Bz]

I really don't like that Moro can copy the power of an angel just like that. I think that 7-3's inclusion is my least favourite thing about this arc. Many of the most controversial moments are from the use of his power.

Like legit, could he put his hand on the neck of zeno or super shenron and be unstoppable?

Despite all that though, I am very interested in the possibility of whis fighting seriously for the first time ever.

It would be a saving grace if Moro fades away for using angel powers.

[Matches Malone]

They need new writers, this god-awful. The pacing, the fake-outs, the stupid justifications made to have Moro stick around and give him stupid power ups to prolong the fight. What's NEXT? Moro beats Whis and the Grand Minister has to come down and get rid of Moro?

DB is currently facing 3 massive problems within the writing department:

1- Toyo is not a professional writer, and it's showing. If this is who's going to be heading the team moving forward, DB's in big trouble.

2- Toriyama doesn't care to correct anyone, and no one's high enough to correct him.

3- The main goal of the "dragon room'' is to find out what fans worldwide want out of the franchise, the last group of people "professionals" should listen to.

We're not going to get any good results out of this combination.

[Matches Malone]

I just wanted the two of them to work together using what they learned but nooooo

Considering how many fake outs we've gotten, I think them fusing into gogeta or vegetto isn't off the table.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I really don't like that Moro can copy the power of an angel just like that. I think that 7-3's inclusion is my least favourite thing about this arc. Many of the most controversial moments are from the use of his power.

Like legit, could he put his hand on the neck of zeno or super shenron and be unstoppable?

Despite all that though, I am very interested in the possibility of whis fighting seriously for the first time ever.

It would be a saving grace if Moro fades away for using angel powers.

I'll take anything, just kill Moro so we can leave. It's ridiculous 7-3's shit extends to Angel's. Imagine if he grabbed Zeno, everyone's fucked. At least Moro will die hopefully by the end of this arc, meaning that can't happen. I think this arc has overstayed it's welcome, Moro needs to DIE, I don't care who does the deed, just make sure he NEVER comes back.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The issue isn't the length, but rather the amount of content we get each month.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but given that you regularly comment on, and express clear dissatisfaction over, the bare fact that the arc hasn't ended each month, it seems quite clear to me that this is at least part of the issue, for you.

And it's clearly a problem for many others, too, though a lot of them don't care to go further into their 'critique' than 'this arc no end, why no end', which I don't think much of - frankly, I find the 'tenacity' of such flat comments rather more tiresome than Moro's.

We're now down to basically one plot point a month, which is insane.

Not entirely sure that's quite so, myself. In the last chapter, we got more like three plot beats (-Goku attains True Ultra Instinct -Goku defeats Moro -Goku declines to kill Moro), and that was for a chapter that left things quite deliberately open to 'show off' Ultra Instinct and what it can do. And in the next chapter, we're getting three plot beats at least, plus whatever hasn't been revealed or detailed yet.

The pacing is definitely slower than it should be (I don't think anyone's denying that), but although it does detract somewhat, I don't think that's necessarily a total deal-breaker for the arc, particularly when we get the chance to re-read it as a whole.

There's also all the fake outs we've been getting for the past 7 months. First we were led to believe the final would be between Moro and Vegeta, then Merus, then Goku, and now maybe Whis ? The tournament of power was longer, but one thing it got right was establishing early on that the main conflict would be between Goku and Jiren, just as the majority of previous arcs within the franchise did.

I guess that depends on your view of whether keeping the resolution for an arc relatively open is a good thing or not. It can work to focus down on one thing early on and drive towards it, but that isn't always necessarily the best solution.

I'd be interested in your thoughts as to why you think it specifically doesn't work for this arc, though.

[Xeogran]

Like legit, could he put his hand on the neck of zeno or super shenron and be unstoppable?

Silly you, Zeno doesn't have a neck

[Jack Bz]

Like legit, could he put his hand on the neck of zeno or super shenron and be unstoppable?

Silly you, Zeno doesn't have a neck

My god, Toyo thought of everything

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping that this is Moro's last transformation and final power up. Because ultimately, if Whis can't do anything useful without having to follow Merus's footsteps of fighting 1-1 with Moro,(Which he'd really prefer not doing) everyone is pretty much fucked against Moro.

[Lord Beerus]

I wouldn't mind this arc continuing, if the character dynamics involved were very interesting and unique. But that has been the biggest issue with the current arc... there's nobody that really grabs your attention in a compelling manner whether it's in what they say or what they do.

Toyotaro had a great opportunity to do something compelling with Moro, but just fell back on the tired character archetype of him being a shallow generic doomsday villain. And don't get me wrong, every major antagonist in Dragon Ball is at heart a generic doomsday, but they all simple but effective additional character quirks that made they distinguishable from one another in subtle ways. Emperor Pilaf was criminally immature, Tenshinhan was arrogant and close minded, King Piccolo was sadistically authoritarian, Vegeta was an prideful elitist, Freeza was a bigoted sadist, Cell was cunning, brutish and very hot-headed, Majin Boo was childish, short-tempered and destructively impulsive, Goku Black and Zamasu were extreme misanthropes and Jiren was incredibly anti-social and emotionally cold.

Moro falls right into the camp of those one-dimensional villains you'd see in the Dragon Ball/Z movies pre-Battle Of Gods. And because of this, he lacks any kind of interesting chemistry with anyone he interacts with, making him such a bore to watch. This was the exact same major problem Jiren had in the anime. But at the very least, you could tell what Toei were going for with Jiren more of his character was revealed: he was meant to be a more anti-social, physically savage, and emotionally distant version of Goku. Moro doesn't have any kind character reflection going for him. He doesn't even have a backstory that ties into the main cast of any layered or intriguing fashion to perhaps bring out some thematic semblance. I'd even go as far as to say he feels more like a prop than an actual character.

And with how more human Moro looks in comparison to how animalistic and alien-ish he appeared initially, I can't help but feel that (unintentionally) symbolises how much Toyotaro felt it would easier to write what was more in the comfort zone of what he's familiar with, rather than experiment something with some more "out there".

It also really doesn't help that some of the main characters have to actively written poorly for the plot to continue. When an author has to go to that length for the story to continue, something ain't right.

The current situation right now is that of a glorified power-up race. And I'm so not interested in that. I was over that kind of narrative during the Cell arc. And it's not gonna pique my interest here.

[Kodoshin]

I'm still using tags in case there is someone out there who has managed to skillfully walk the spoiler tightrope of this thread.

Spoiler:

My guess is that this ends up with Goku still beating Moro. Just thinking back to what Meerus said about MUI. That with it Moro, nor anyone else, would be a match for Goku. Perhaps Goku's risky decision making here is a catalyst for some sort of divine punishment in the next arc? Just spitballing what seems like the most basic approach they could take here is going forward. Guessing' we'll be seeing Goku taking on the angels soon enough.

[Xeogran]

Spoiler:

Guessing' we'll be seeing Goku taking on the angels soon enough.

I really don't want that. He is a Saiyan who makes the same kind of decisions over and over again. Angels are the overseers of the Universes possibly since their creation.. There is no point to make a fighting monkey race be equal with literal creators, except for powerlevel wanking.

DBS would be fine if it ended with Goku being on Beerus tier, that should be enough of a benchmark for Saiyans. Any higher and the plot literally has nowhere to go from there.

[DBNamek]

I honestly don't care what happens to moro, I want this guy to die already lmao.

For real, I can't stand him any longer. Just kill the guy already. don't care if it's goku, whis, beerus, or anyone, just...get rid of him.

[Matches Malone]

Given that you regularly comment on the fact that the arc hasn't ended each month, it seems quite clear to me that this is at least part of the issue, for you.

I guess that depends on your view of whether keeping the resolution for an arc relatively open is a good thing or not. I'd be interested in your thoughts as to why you think it specifically doesn't work for this arc, though.

It is, as I think it has gone on for too long based on the content it has. I've been a fan of it until recently, but at this point I just think it has overstayed its welcome. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against longer arcs, I just don't think this particular arc has enough content to justify its length.

I don't have an issue with the resolution being kept under wraps, I'm just not a fan of the fake outs. I don't mind it once or even twice, but we're on the 4th one now, with maybe another after that.

[Gogeta_Blue]

I guess getting a hole punched through his chest and Merus throwing his life away for him wasn't enough incentive for Goku to do what needs to be done.

I hope Vegeta, Beerus, or even Whis beats the absolute piss out of him when this is over. Just on principle.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I just want Moro to die. Its so painful seeing the ways he keeps coming back. Just end him. Now. This better be Moro's final fight....

[SupremeKai25]

Toyotaro had a great opportunity to do something compelling with Moro, but just fell back on the tired character archetype of him being a shallow generic doomsday villain.

That's the most disappointing thing about this arc. When you look at old Moro, you'd think that he'd have more compelling or deeper reasons. I mean, he gives off such an ominous and almost ancient feel, as if he were a wise and enlightened entity... but nope, he is an animal who just wants to eat people. There's nothing more to it.

It's also very sad because modern Super has come up with great villains. Zamasu for example is a three-dimensional villain with complex motivations, which is a first time in Dragon Ball. Even Heroes succeeded in creating a compelling villain with Hearts, who brings up very valid concerns about Zeno. These two villains both thought they were doing the right thing and saw themselves as heroes, which is what makes them unique and interesting.

Moro is pretty much like the Z villains. He's an evil monster who wants to kill people because he is evil and that's what evil people do. Soooo boring, Toyotaro really needs to come up with better villains. He somehow managed to gut Zamasu too and reduce him to a generic Z villain... here's hoping Toei fixes this mess.

[Matches Malone]

This is a great comment on Twitter.

"Here we have Moro: A bloody thirsty, vicious, brutal, soul devouring, sadistic enemy with NO empathy or emotions towards ANYTHING outside of consuming & destroying any & all life he can get his hands on & ... Vegeta & Goku STILL have to ask if its ok to kill him?! Dude .. JUST NO"

What did they think he was going to do ? The problem with this writing is how uncharacteristic it is for them, which just take you out of the experience.

Perhaps Goku's risky decision making here is a catalyst for some sort of divine punishment in the next arc?

I hope Vegeta, Beerus, or even Whis beats the absolute piss out of him when this is over. Just on principle.

As much as I'd like either, I think the more likely outcome is everyone laughing it off while Beerus and Whis get bribed with food...again.

This better be Moro's final fight....

I think we've got at least 3 more fights ahead of us.

Whis vs Moro
Vegeta vs Moro
Buu vs Moro
Gogeta/Vegetto vs Moro.

[Totamo]

I wouldn't mind this arc continuing, if the character dynamics involved were very interesting and unique. But that has been the biggest issue with the current arc... there's nobody that really grabs your attention in a compelling manner whether it's in what they say or what they do.

Toyotaro had a great opportunity to do something compelling with Moro, but just fell back on the tired character archetype of him being a shallow generic doomsday villain. And don't get me wrong, every major antagonist in Dragon Ball is at heart a generic doomsday, but they all simple but effective additional character quirks that made they distinguishable from one another in subtle ways. Emperor Pilaf was criminally immature, Tenshinhan was arrogant and close minded, King Piccolo was sadistically authoritarian, Vegeta was an prideful elitist, Freeza was a bigoted sadist, Cell was cunning, brutish and very hot-headed, Majin Boo was childish, short-tempered and destructively impulsive, Goku Black and Zamasu were extreme misanthropes and Jiren was incredibly anti-social and emotionally cold.

Moro falls right into the camp of those one-dimensional villains you'd see in the Dragon Ball/Z movies pre-Battle Of Gods. And because of this, he lacks any kind of interesting chemistry with anyone he interacts with, making him such a bore to watch. This was the exact same major problem Jiren had in the anime. But at the very least, you could tell what Toei were going for with Jiren more of his character was revealed: he was meant to be a more anti-social, physically savage, and emotionally distant version of Goku. Moro doesn't have any kind character reflection going for him. He doesn't even have a backstory that ties into the main cast of any layered or intriguing fashion to perhaps bring out some thematic semblance. I'd even go as far as to say he feels more like a prop than an actual character.

And with how more human Moro looks in comparison to how animalistic and alien-ish he appeared initially, I can't help but feel that (unintentionally) symbolises how much Toyotaro felt it would easier to write what was more in the comfort zone of what he's familiar with, rather than experiment something with some more "out there".

It also really doesn't help that some of the main characters have to actively written poorly for the plot to continue. When an author has to go to that length for the story to continue, something ain't right.

The current situation right now is that of a glorified power-up race. And I'm so not interested in that. I was over that kind of narrative during the Cell arc. And it's not gonna pique my interest here.

Honestly, thats always been Toyotaro's flaw and why the anime version of the TOP and Future trunks were better in my opinion.

I really don't know how to feel about this situation. It looks like he is trying to get whis involved in a physical battle which I'm not going to lie will make me forgive like most of the bad stuff in this arc. However, its quite clear the senzu bean wasn't needed for Moro to get that form which means he didn't need to write that scene in.

Again all we have is this, maybe there is some missing context that will THAT make some sense but right now, it feels like toyotaro wrote it in because he liked it without understanding the context of the scene which is the main problem with modern dragon ball throwbacks, not the nostalgia bait.


The power race thing, though, no defending that. In 4 chapters, Moro has gone through 3 different forms. Buuhan Buuicolo and Buutenks lasted longer than this and he is doing it for the same reason: to extend the arc.

[Omgzord]

Goku has to be the most incompetent Shounen MC ever.

Imagine giving a fucking magician who can absorb and copy people's abilities a second chance, how many times has he been screwed over cuz of this? This is Buu arc all over, where the only reason the main villain keep being a threat is that the cast are retardeds