"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[JewyB]

And exactly what did I say that ruined the enjoyment for other people? Read my posts, I said nothing specifically revealing other than my distate for this crap.

Goku giving Moro the senzu bean is all I mentioned, which has been talked about on this forum for the last few days constantly. I didn't mention anything specific after I read the summaries.

Its not about you spoiling, but the attitude you took towards it. I also dont know what your post said be cause i got to you claiming you'll state your opinion on things and stopped reading, because i didn't want to read spoilers.

All thats been said is can we either separate the two groups or ask people to start using spoiler tags, two reasonable requests, and your reponse was, essentially "lol fuk u guiz ima do what i want" and thats what i was talking about, not whether or not you spoiled anything, but the fact that you took it as an offensive idea that people might hold differing values to you.

Hope that cleared up what i was talking about.

[Kinokima]

Still, I hope that Vegeta knows how to spirit fission an entire planet(or at least the part Moro is exposed on) else everyone dies(except Whis and Beerus...at least until Shin gets caught in the blast.)

You don’t have to hope whether he does or not is up to Toyo and where he wants to bring the chapter lol

[Ziegander]

I've read the summary.

In all honesty, and this is just my opinion, but I hate almost every single thing about it. I fully stand by what I said earlier that the spoilers we had already seen are terrible and... without getting into spoilers about the rest of it, personally, I think the whole chapter can get thrown into the garbage. I'm shocked at how much I hate it, actually, I was expecting to like at least some of this chapter.

[Matches Malone]

I miss the days when Goku would look at Baby running for his life and come to the obvious conclusion that letting someone like that live would just put everyone in the same situation they just barely got out of, before blasting him into the sun.

[Rebel Instinct]

So no it doesn’t make Goku look better at all

Not even remotely what I was arguing.

Not once did I defend Goku's actions, nor did I try to "make him look better". I contested that Goku telling Moro to "go off and train to fight me again another day" and Goku "begging Moro to reform" does not happen in this chapter at all.

That is all.

If you want to be mad, be mad. I don't care. Just be mad about what's actually in the chapter and not some inaccurate fabrication. Get your facts straight, then be mad at the facts if you want. Not my prerogative, I have no stakes in this race.

[Kinokima]

So no it doesn’t make Goku look better at all

Not even remotely what I was arguing.

Not once did I defend Goku's actions, nor did I try to "make him look better". I contested that Goku telling Moro to "go off and train to fight me again another day" and Goku "begging Moro to reform" does not happen in this chapter at all.

That is all.

If you want to be mad, be mad. I don't care. Just be mad about what's actually in the chapter and not some inaccurate fabrication. Get your facts straight, then be mad at the facts if you want. Not my prerogative, I have no stakes in this race.

I never contradicted the facts of the chapter

And a lot of people are coming in saying seeing everyone is upset over nothing and I am saying no that isn’t true the summary doesn’t make things much better

The last part you seem to be talking about is just something that I guess a few people misunderstood today it’s not what people were most upset about regarding this chapter. So Goku is still written badly here but less badly then he could of been is not much of a defense of the writing here.

[Jack Bz]

So no it doesn’t make Goku look better at all

Not even remotely what I was arguing.

Not once did I defend Goku's actions, nor did I try to "make him look better". I contested that Goku telling Moro to "go off and train to fight me again another day" and Goku "begging Moro to reform" does not happen in this chapter at all.

That is all.

If you want to be mad, be mad. I don't care. Just be mad about what's actually in the chapter and not some inaccurate fabrication. Get your facts straight, then be mad at the facts if you want. Not my prerogative, I have no stakes in this race.

Yes, that's the crux of the issue. I've seen a bunch of blatantly false things posted in this thread, and then other people read them and get mad at what they're reading until it's just a big ambush of people frothing at the mouth.

[Ziegander]

I miss the days when Goku would look at Baby running for his life and come to the obvious conclusion that letting someone like that live would just put everyone in the same situation they just barely got out of, before blasting him into the sun.

I'm still holding out a slim sliver of hope, I don't know where I got it from, that once the fully translated manga chapter hits with the artwork and everything that somehow it all actually reads better than the spoilers make it seem, because... woof!

[JewyB]

So, how long until the chapter officially drops now anyways? I can never get a handle on the time.

[Ziegander]

Tomorrow morning, if I recall correctly.

[omaro34]

And exactly what did I say that ruined the enjoyment for other people? Read my posts, I said nothing specifically revealing other than my distate for this crap.

Goku giving Moro the senzu bean is all I mentioned, which has been talked about on this forum for the last few days constantly. I didn't mention anything specific after I read the summaries.

Its not about you spoiling, but the attitude you took towards it. I also dont know what your post said be cause i got to you claiming you'll state your opinion on things and stopped reading, because i didn't want to read spoilers.

All thats been said is can we either separate the two groups or ask people to start using spoiler tags, two reasonable requests, and your reponse was, essentially "lol fuk u guiz ima do what i want" and thats what i was talking about, not whether or not you spoiled anything, but the fact that you took it as an offensive idea that people might hold differing values to you.

Hope that cleared up what i was talking about.

I see what you mean. I didn't mean to offend anyone. Its just coming from a place of frustration at the material I'm reading, not targeted towards anyone specifically.

Overall, I dislike Dragonball Super. To me, it doesn't hold a candle to Dragonball or DBZ (especially Dragonball). There are definitely enjoyable moments, but especially the last few chapters of this arc and the spoilers I read from this chapter made me feel like I validated my point. Main protagonists learning from past experiences is not too much to ask for. Toyotarou is a decent writer but not the greatest, too many shout outs to past events in my view.

If someone else told me they disagreed, i would welcome it and value it. We all have different opinions, tastes, and preferences. But if there is something I don't like i won't be afraid to say it.

Thanks for clearing up what you meant. If I make a mistake, I'll own up to it which I'm doing here.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Goku is explaining to Moro where he went wrong and why he lost.

Goku: You know how you nearly killed all of us and it took the power of angles to take you down ?
Moro: Yes ?
Goku: Well, if you go to prison and somehow find a way to train, you'll get a lot more out of it then simply eating planets.
Moro: So if I go back to prison and happen to escape when you're not looking and start training, I'll be stronger ?
Goku:
Moro: OK then, I'll go to prison.

Do you see how bad that would be for everyone if he took Goku up on his offer ? No matter how you look at it, Goku's written terribly here.

Yeah, watch as Moro breaks out again and terrorizes the universe again. That totally won't backfire....

[Rebel Instinct]

I never contradicted the facts of the chapter

I never accused you of doing so at any point.

And a lot of people are coming in saying seeing everyone is upset over nothing and I am saying no that isn’t true the summary doesn’t make things much better

Again, not my point. I advocated for accuracy, not justifying Goku's actions. Be mad at the facts, not misinformation. Full stop.

The last part you seem to be talking about is just something that I guess a few people misunderstood today it’s not what people were most upset about regarding this chapter

Indeed I was - and nothing more. I don't care about anything else.

[Kinokima]

I never contradicted the facts of the chapter

I never accused you of doing so at any point.

And a lot of people are coming in saying seeing everyone is upset over nothing and I am saying no that isn’t true the summary doesn’t make things much better

Again, not my point. I advocated for accuracy, not justifying Goku's actions. Be mad at the facts, not misinformation. Full stop.

The last part you seem to be talking about is just something that I guess a few people misunderstood today it’s not what people were most upset about regarding this chapter

Indeed I was - and nothing more. I don't care about anything else.

And I don’t mind you coming in and correcting misinformation that’s cool

It’s more the I told you so attitude that some people have about people being upset for nothing


Personally I don’t mind the direction of the chapter I just think they could have gotten to the same place here without making Goku look bad that’s what’s most disappointing to me.

[Hellspawn28]

I feel like Goku is always going to be a good-hearted idiot. Goku will always find himself thinking that anyone can be good.

[SupremeKai25]

I feel like Goku is always going to be a good-hearted idiot. Goku will always find himself thinking that anyone can be good.

Everyone except Zamasu and Cell, of course. In their case, they are just irredeemable monsters and it's not even worth giving them a chance to prove otherwise.

[omaro34]

I feel like Goku is always going to be a good-hearted idiot. Goku will always find himself thinking that anyone can be good.

I still find it hard to believe that given Goku's experience and the battles he's had since childhood.

He was more ruthless as a kid. Finished his opponents more often in Dragonball outside of Piccolo.

[Jack Bz]

Goku is explaining to Moro where he went wrong and why he lost.

Goku: You know how you nearly killed all of us and it took the power of angles to take you down ?
Moro: Yes ?
Goku: Well, if you go to prison and somehow find a way to train, you'll get a lot more out of it then simply eating planets.
Moro: So if I go back to prison and happen to escape when you're not looking and start training, I'll be stronger ?
Goku:
Moro: OK then, I'll go to prison.

Do you see how bad that would be for everyone if he took Goku up on his offer ? No matter how you look at it, Goku's written terribly here.

Goku is talking to him about training and self improvement and the benefits martial arts can give you to see if there's any glimmer of hope in Moro at all to not commit to eating planets. He's saying there is another path that doesn't involve destruction and death, and it will reap even better rewards. It was a long shot, but as he said in chapter 63, "I'll fight them as many times as it takes, and maybe, just maybe, they'll join the good side". He tried, but still concluded that Moro does in fact need to die and is a lost cause. He's giving him less mercy than he did to Piccolo or Vegeta.

People are talking about Goku not learning from his mistakes, but the only time it has ever backfired for the Z fighters to spare an enemy (and the consequences were still practically non-existent) was when Goku spared Freeza. Piccolo, Vegeta, the androids etc all joined the good side. You could say sparing 18 caused problems with Cell, but that's on Cell rather than 18. Usually being spared leads to a path where the character eventually turns around.

Goku giving but the tiniest of graces to a villain who he rightfully thought had absolutely no chance against him isn't absurd. The worst thing about this moment is that there have been plenty of other fakeouts with Moro, and this is the latest in a long line of them. Goku's characterisation isn't the issue, it's fatigue at the concept of Moro again evading defeat. But this is the one time where Moro has evaded defeat where it has actually had some foreshadowing (Goku and Merus' conversation, the hand grabbing Merus' neck earlier) and that has made the most sense. Moro eating 7-3 out of nowhere was worse than this for sure.

Also sorry for being pedantic: but every time you mention angels, you spell it as angles, as in the angles of a triangle etc

[Magnificent Ponta]

...Wow.

That was...pretty damn wild. Don't think anyone could've seen all that coming. Looking forward to actually reading the Chapter.

1: I like the fact that the theme of this arc of characters getting stronger by stealing techniques and energy has been addressed by Goku, who notes that those sort of techniques come 2nd to training.

2: saying that Goku tells Moro to "go away train to fight again later" is so so so disingenuous, and people are looking to be get angry. That just isn't the case at all. Goku doesn't give Moro the option of not going to prison, and actually decides to kill him. Goku bringing up training is used to make clear to Moro where he went wrong, and he just voices his disappointment in Moro's methods. Learn to read.

Thanks for this post. I'd been casting around for a unifying theme for this arc, and this has helped me see that it's "Stolen, Earned, and Given".

• The arc itself begins with the Galactic Patrol stealing Majin Buu.
• The first beat of the arc deals with a train heist by lowlife thieves.
• Moro's whole deal is stealing energy from his targets, whether people or planets; he never earned any of his great power; fittingly, his backstory involved the Dai Kaioshin giving up half his power to "steal" Moro's magic (usually "seal" is the word used, but Moro mentions in Chapter 46 that Dai Kaioshin "stole my abilities".
• Ultimately, Moro will steal the final wish from Cranberry to release his bandit henchmen from Galactic Patrol Prison.
• Vegeta, for his part, reflects on how he stole the lives of the Namekians (as it were) when he was last on Namek. He works hard to earn redemption, which will be finally achieved when he is able to give back the lives of a remnant of Namekians in Chapter 61.
• The Bandit Brigade are, obviously, thieves, and act as thieves when they team up with Moro - they pillage planets, steal their valuables, and then Moro steals their energy. It's also worth noting that it's pointed out that they didn't earn their strength either, but it's rather given out by Moro - this will be reflected in Saganbo not being able to handle the power doled out later in Chapter 58, being at sub-Kid Trunks level like he is.
• Goku and Vegeta spend their time trying to earn new levels or kinds of power, in Ultra Instinct and Spirit Control, respectively, through the lessons given by Merus ("I will impart all that I have to you") and Pybara (as a tiny note on that, Vegeta mentions that he has no intention of stealing Goku's move - Shunkan Idou - after he uses it once in Chapter 60, and pins his hopes on having earned a more complicated technique) - as Pybara notes, Vegeta is "a prodigy of hard work" - he's earned it.
• OG73-I, in particular, steals the moves of his enemies via his copy ability, right down to the force of their punches and kicks; Gohan and Piccolo will eventually work out a counter-measure by combo moves, and Gohan says they'd never lose to "some copycat", pointing up the superiority of their approach.
• Moro will not only steal OG73-I's power (and his own previously stolen power, 'backed up'), but also his Copy Ability.
• Merus will give his life to push Goku to attain to what he has worked for - Ultra Instinct.

And then, the spoiler parts:

Spoiler:

• Goku aims to give Moro a chance to change, stealing the Senzu Beans and giving him one.
• Goku makes a point of saying that Moro never trained, and never earned his power - if he had done so, he would be much stronger than he has become from stealing lives.
• Moro tries to steal Merus's power, but because he never trained for it - never earned it - he can't handle it, just like Saganbo, who was given stolen power that wasn't earned.
• Finally, Moro goes for the final gamble of trying to steal the Earth to contain his stolen power.

I'm sure there's other stuff, but that was very useful to think with. Thanks.

[Kinokima]

Also for the record I like Goku’s message about training. It’s similar to Vegeta telling Moro he should fight with his own power. They both come from the same place and hopefully in the end both Goku and Vegeta’s message will be why Moro lost

The issue is still Goku giving Moro a Senzu which he did not have to do. Even if Goku was more powerful than Moro anything can happen so it’s makes Goku look bad for no reason because they literally could have done this twist without that part.