Do you the find the pushback against Goku being the hero to be odd?

[JewyB]

The problem is since Dragonball's revival the focus is almost entirely on Goku/Vegeta:

BOG and Broly are the only stories that make sense focusing on Goku and Vegeta, every other arc shouldn't have, as there were plenty of chances in them to include the others.

Interestingly, RoF could be argued to be as well, other characters met Frieza but it is a long-standing saiyan feud. Could've been a good balance to make the movies incredibly saiyan and lore focused and around the build up of Goku and Vegeta and have the series be far more balanced in character screentimes.

That would have involved any of Super being planned in general though.

[kemuri07]

The problem isn't that Goku is the hero. In Dragonball, Goku is the hero. But Dragonball also featured a myriad of weird characters for fans to enjoy. The problem with Z going forward is, due to the shift from action comedy to sci-fi action, the focus became entirely on Goku fights a strong opponent, he gets a new power up, goku defeats bad guy--rinse and repeat. And because of the god mode that saiyans have, basically the saiyans, and ultimately just Goku and Vegeta, left everyone behind in the dust.

Power creep is the bigger issue with the franchise.

[DBNamek]

Yeah, looking back, it was pretty interesting that Goku was written out of the story in Z. Dead, training, heart virus, Toriyama found ways to write Goku out of the story. That's why Gohan, Vegeta, Krillin, Piccolo, Fututre Tunks (Android/Cell saga) and Goten/Trunks (Buu saga) got varying degrees of fights/development/moments. Z was never saturated with Goku.

For Super, Goku is everywhere in the story. Goku this, Goku that. Granted DB was also Goku centric, but it worked because the cast was much smaller. there were no aliens, cyborgs (with a couple exceptions), gods, etc.

[WittyUsername]

Yeah, looking back, it was pretty interesting that Goku was written out of the story in Z. Dead, training, heart virus, Toriyama found ways to write Goku out of the story. That's why Gohan, Vegeta, Krillin, Piccolo, Fututre Tunks (Android/Cell saga) and Goten/Trunks (Buu saga) got varying degrees of fights/development/moments. Z was never saturated with Goku.

For Super, Goku is everywhere in the story. Goku this, Goku that. Granted DB was also Goku centric, but it worked because the cast was much smaller. there were no aliens, cyborgs (with a couple exceptions), gods, etc.

Even when Goku wasn’t around in the “Z era”, the other characters were usually just waiting for him to show up.

[precita]

Even then, Goku only fights Vegeta for like 3 episodes in the Saiyan saga before being unable to move. Same for when he arrived on Namek, he fights the Ginyu Force for like 3-4 eps then Ginyu steals his body and does nothing for another 30 episodes.

Goku also really is absent for like 80% of the Cell saga, I had honestly forgotten how little focus Goku got that saga till I rewatched it. He's not around when Freeza comes to Earth, he just briefly fights Android 19 and is basically gone for the rest of it besides rescuing Piccolo/Tenshinhan from Cell until the Cell Games. Piccolo feels more of a main character in the Cell saga than Goku.

The Boo saga had a pretty good balance I thought. The focus is evenly spread out through Gohan, Trunks/Goten, Vegeta and Goku along with Piccolo confronting Babidi and training Gotenks and being around for the Boo fights.

[LoganForkHands73]

This is kinda the huge contradiction to the idea of Dragon Ball solely being Goku's story: the fact that large swathes of the story don't feature Goku at all due to him being unceremoniously written off. Even the arc where Goku follows through with solo-ing the baddie, the Namek arc, could barely even be called Goku's story until the very end. The plot really doesn't focus on him at all until he shows up to fight Ginyu, then he's once again incapacitated for ages until Freeza reaches his final form.

[JewyB]

Even when Goku wasn’t around in the “Z era”, the other characters were usually just waiting for him to show up.

They were stalling, which is a key difference. The only time they were waiting was Namek, and we skipped the wait and got to them vs the ginyu force, stalling for Goku, and it was great.

At least let us watch them wait for Goku and see what they are upto.

[Cursed Lemon]

Goku's character strength is also his weakness. He's bound and determined with a never-say-die attitude, but he also never goes through a single legitimate character conflict. Nothing ever "happens" to Goku. Now obviously DB is primarily about action, but the story is still important and it suffers some when the main character never develops. Gohan and Vegeta's crowning character moments are probably the two most famous moments in the entirety of DBZ. There's a reason for that.

[ABED]

Goku's character strength is also his weakness. He's bound and determined with a never-say-die attitude, but he also never goes through a single legitimate character conflict. Nothing ever "happens" to Goku. Now obviously DB is primarily about action, but the story is still important and it suffers some when the main character never develops. Gohan and Vegeta's crowning character moments are probably the two most famous moments in the entirety of DBZ. There's a reason for that.

Goku turning Super Saiyan says hello. It is probably the most iconic moment in the series. People love good character development but they also just love good characters. Static character doesn't mean they aren't interesting or as interesting as more dynamic characters.

And yes, I find the pushback silly. He's the main character, end of story. It not an ensemble story and no story has benefitted by changing the main character after an extended run.

Even the arc where Goku follows through with solo-ing the baddie, the Namek arc, could barely even be called Goku's story until the very end. The plot really doesn't focus on him at all until he shows up to fight Ginyu, then he's once again incapacitated for ages until Freeza reaches his final form.

First, plot and story aren't the same. Goku's not part of the plot but he is central to the story as it's all leading to the final battle with Freeza vs Goku. The reason Goku is incapacitated is not because he's not vital the story but because he IS vital to the story. It's about building suspense until the big gun arrives in time to save the day.

Yes, DBZ does keep Goku out of the action for large chunks and it's not to its benefit. It became a narrative crutch and the plot wasn't resolved UNTIL Goku arrived.

[jjgp1112]

This is kinda the huge contradiction to the idea of Dragon Ball solely being Goku's story: the fact that large swathes of the story don't feature Goku at all due to him being unceremoniously written off. Even the arc where Goku follows through with solo-ing the baddie, the Namek arc, could barely even be called Goku's story until the very end. The plot really doesn't focus on him at all until he shows up to fight Ginyu, then he's once again incapacitated for ages until Freeza reaches his final form.

The thing is, even when Goku's absent, the plot still ultimately ties back to him - his absence is a dangling plot thread and a source of tension throughout the Saiyan, Namek, and Android sagas - "Just wait til Goku gets here" "What's taking Goku so long?!" "If only Goku were here...!" "We can't attack the Androids until Goku's recovered!"

Goku isn't always loud or angry and doesn't have access to time machines, but whenever he's not onscreen, all the other characters ask where he is.

[JewyB]

And yes, I find the pushback silly. He's the main character, end of story. It not an ensemble story and no story has benefitted by changing the main character after an extended run.

Superior Spiderman is a shining example of this, its rare but my god Spiderman was interesting again for the first time in years.

[ABED]

And yes, I find the pushback silly. He's the main character, end of story. It not an ensemble story and no story has benefitted by changing the main character after an extended run.

Superior Spiderman is a shining example of this, its rare but my god Spiderman was interesting again for the first time in years.

Is that the one with Miles Morales? If that's the case, you'd be incorrect because Miles is BORING.

[JewyB]

And yes, I find the pushback silly. He's the main character, end of story. It not an ensemble story and no story has benefitted by changing the main character after an extended run.

Superior Spiderman is a shining example of this, its rare but my god Spiderman was interesting again for the first time in years.

Is that the one with Miles Morales? If that's the case, you'd be incorrect because Miles is BORING.

No thats Ultimate Spiderman part 2(I guess?), Superior is when Doc Ock becomes a vastly more fascinating spiderman.

[LoganForkHands73]

And yes, I find the pushback silly. He's the main character, end of story. It not an ensemble story and no story has benefitted by changing the main character after an extended run.

Superior Spiderman is a shining example of this, its rare but my god Spiderman was interesting again for the first time in years.

Is that the one with Miles Morales? If that's the case, you'd be incorrect because Miles is BORING.

Nah, that's the one where Doc Ock stole Peter's body. It was indeed surprisingly good until it overstayed its welcome somewhat.

First, plot and story aren't the same. Goku's not part of the plot but he is central to the story as it's all leading to the final battle with Freeza vs Goku. The reason Goku is incapacitated is not because he's not vital the story but because he IS vital to the story. It's about building suspense until the big gun arrives in time to save the day.

Yes, DBZ does keep Goku out of the action for large chunks and it's not to its benefit. It became a narrative crutch and the plot wasn't resolved UNTIL Goku arrived.

That depends entirely on how you define the two terms. I've always used them interchangeably.

I don't argue that Goku isn't the main character of Dragon Ball overall, that much is obvious, but in any case, the Z era undeniably sidelines him a lot, more so than you'd expect for the central protagonist. I do consider the Namek and Android arcs to be more ensemble pieces because they focus on many different characters divorced from Goku, and they all have their own goals and crucial developments. The Saiyan arc gives Goku more to do but still spends a large amount of focus on the rest of the cast, with Gohan and Krillin proving crucial to Vegeta's defeat.

Let's put it this way, you have a story where Character A is usually the main protagonist but spends 90% of it in a hospital bed or a bacta tank, doing absolutely nothing, while other characters actually go on the adventures, collect all the MacGuffins and do most of the fighting and interacting. Sure, everyone talks about Character A and wishes for him to arrive so he can kill the bad guys and solve their problems, but Character A is basically a Call of Duty tactical nuke at that point, which is how I've often compared Goku's role in those particular arcs.

[ABED]

Superior Spiderman is a shining example of this, its rare but my god Spiderman was interesting again for the first time in years.

Is that the one with Miles Morales? If that's the case, you'd be incorrect because Miles is BORING.

No thats Ultimate Spiderman part 2(I guess?), Superior is when Doc Ock becomes a vastly more fascinating spiderman.

Even if Dan Slott weren't a god awful writer, a temporary change in the status quo can be refreshing but that's not the same as someone permanently taking over the lead.

That depends entirely on how you define the two terms. I've always used them interchangeably

They are but they are different. Plot are the stuff that happens, but story is about character and what the narrative is actually about. Take Lethal Weapon for instance
Plot - Straightlaced cop and family man Roger Murtaugh teams with an on the edge detective Martin Riggs on a case after a war buddy's daughter dies under suspicious circumstances.
Story - Riggs and Murtaugh form a bond at an important part of their lives and give each other the thing they needed - Murtaugh, a sense of vitality, and Riggs, a family.

In the Freeza arc, the plot was to find the DB's but the story was ultimately about Goku's fight against the biggest bad guy in the universe who also happened to be the one responsible for the destruction of his planet of birth.

I don't argue that Goku isn't the main character of Dragon Ball overall, that much is obvious, but in any case, the Z era undeniably sidelines him a lot, more so than you'd expect for the central protagonist. I do consider the Namek and Android arcs to be more ensemble pieces because they focus on many different characters divorced from Goku, and they all have their own goals and crucial developments. The Saiyan arc gives Goku more to do but still spends a large amount of focus on the rest of the cast, with Gohan and Krillin proving crucial to Vegeta's defeat.

Let's put it this way, you have a story where Character A is usually the main protagonist but spends 90% of it in a hospital bed or a bacta tank, doing absolutely nothing, while other characters actually go on the adventures, collect all the MacGuffins and do most of the fighting and interacting. Sure, everyone talks about Character A and wishes for him to arrive so he can kill the bad guys and solve their problems, but Character A is basically a Call of Duty tactical nuke at that point, which is how I've often compared Goku's role in those particular arcs.

And yet almost nothing gets done until Goku shows up. There's a lot of treading water in DBZ until Goku arrives.

[JewyB]

Even if Dan Slott weren't a god awful writer, a temporary change in the status quo can be refreshing but that's not the same as someone permanently taking over the lead.

I mean, he took over as the main character for two years, it doesnt need to be permanent but how long would you consider to be needed for it to count? It was still an example of a main character changing and the series not failing miserably. Your opinion on the writer doesn't change that.

EDIT: In fact, Miles Morales is probably also proof of this, even if you dont like him, you can't argue he's had a successful run.

[ABED]

Even if Dan Slott weren't a god awful writer, a temporary change in the status quo can be refreshing but that's not the same as someone permanently taking over the lead.

I mean, he took over as the main character for two years, it doesnt need to be permanent but how long would you consider to be needed for it to count? It was still an example of a main character changing and the series not failing miserably. Your opinion on the writer doesn't change that.

EDIT: In fact, Miles Morales is probably also proof of this, even if you dont like him, you can't argue he's had a successful run.

How long? Longer than a cup of coffee. Plenty of stories do the body switch story and they can be fun for a bit, but quickly lose steam.

I'm not talking sales, I'm talking quality of the writing so yes, my opinion on the writer does change my opinion on the issue at hand. Slott is a terrible writer and it's because of dumb stories like the one in question. It's an interesting idea, but he can't execute.

I can't explain Miles. I'll never understand why such a boring character gained popularity. But I would add he didn't replace Peter. Comics with Peter as Spidey are being published alongside Miles'

Character A is basically a Call of Duty tactical nuke at that point, which is how I've often compared Goku's role in those particular arcs.

Except that the story is about Goku's journey to be the best fighter he can be and keep overcoming his limits. He's not JUST brought in for the sake of resolving the plot.

[JewyB]

How long? Longer than a cup of coffee.

I'm not talking sales, I'm talking quality of the writing.

I can't explain Miles. I'll never understand why such a boring character gained popularity. But I would add he didn't replace Peter. Comics with Peter as Spidey are being published alongside Miles'

I would argue two years is longer than a cup of coffee. I woudl also argue sales directly effects writing and can be a good judge of it. Sales wise, a cursory look shows Superior Spiderman outperformed Amazing Spiderman on average of 10K per week, which is 10K more people reading, 10K more people who preferred the writing of a long running series for 2 years. Aside from that anything else is subjective, i enjoyed the writing, you did not, that proves that. The only objective thing we have to go off are sales, which, with a prolonged increase, not just a random spike, tend to suggest the readers enjoyed it more.

As for Miles, i too wasnt a fan, i liked his skillset and suit but i found him very much reliant on Peter Parker as a storytelling device, not sure how different it is now. It is also worth mentioning that he did replace Peter, just not main continuity Peter, but Ultimate Peter Parker was well-known enough as a separate character that i would say it counts. I havent looked at the sales for how this is reflected in the Ultimate run though.

[ABED]

How long? Longer than a cup of coffee.

I'm not talking sales, I'm talking quality of the writing.

I can't explain Miles. I'll never understand why such a boring character gained popularity. But I would add he didn't replace Peter. Comics with Peter as Spidey are being published alongside Miles'

I would argue two years is longer than a cup of coffee. I woudl also argue sales directly effects writing and can be a good judge of it. Sales wise, a cursory look shows Superior Spiderman outperformed Amazing Spiderman on average of 10K per week, which is 10K more people reading, 10K more people who preferred the writing of a long running series for 2 years. Aside from that anything else is subjective, i enjoyed the writing, you did not, that proves that. The only objective thing we have to go off are sales, which, with a prolonged increase, not just a random spike, tend to suggest the readers enjoyed it more.

As for Miles, i too wasnt a fan, i liked his skillset and suit but i found him very much reliant on Peter Parker as a storytelling device, not sure how different it is now. It is also worth mentioning that he did replace Peter, just not main continuity Peter, but Ultimate Peter Parker was well-known enough as a separate character that i would say it counts. I havent looked at the sales for how this is reflected in the Ultimate run though.

The same thing could be said of the Clone Saga. It went on as long as it did because it was popular but then in retrospect people realized it was a dumb story that went on too long and your point about sales is demonstrably false. We can both name plenty of popular franchises with awful writing.

Your point about sales doesn't prove anything. Changing the status quo often helps sales, especially after one that's lasted since the damn early 60s. But it's very telling that they keep going back to Peter.

It doesn't count in Miles case as Peter's story never went out of publication. There isn't just one Spider-Man title.

Perhaps US superhero comics with the multiple titles and the infinite middle is not the best example to use. It's not like one singular story with a single continuity

[LoganForkHands73]

They are but they are different. Plot are the stuff that happens, but story is about character and what the narrative is actually about. Take Lethal Weapon for instance
Plot - Straightlaced cop and family man Roger Murtaugh teams with an on the edge detective Martin Riggs on a case after a war buddy's daughter dies under suspicious circumstances.
Story - Riggs and Murtaugh form a bond at an important part of their lives and give each other the thing they needed - Murtaugh, a sense of vitality, and Riggs, a family.

In the Freeza arc, the plot was to find the DB's but the story was ultimately about Goku's fight against the biggest bad guy in the universe who also happened to be the one responsible for the destruction of his planet of birth.

Well, alright then, thanks for clarifying. But with the Lethal Weapon example, Riggs and Murtaugh are integral to both. In the same vain, I'd say Gohan, Krillin and Vegeta are just as integral to both the plot and story of the Namek arc as Goku, if not more so. They're all active, independent agents in the story we follow, so are central protagonists as far as I'm concerned. Goku has little in the way of an emotional arc or spiritual journey to fighting Freeza. He gets the juicy golden haired developments during his battle against him, but has little real focus until that point. He's ferried off in Dr. Briefs' spaceship which he doesn't even have to pilot himself, gets deployed on Namek and effortlessly defeats most of the Ginyus before being put out of commission once again. I agree with MistareFusion's take that Goku is very much out-of-place on Namek and shoehorned into events close to the climax.

Not that that's even a bad thing. Freeza's first interaction with Goku is interesting partly because Goku has no personal quarrel against him. They're both blank slates to each other.

And yet almost nothing gets done until Goku shows up. There's a lot of treading water in DBZ until Goku arrives.

Gohan and Krillin succeed in their goal of resurrecting (one of) their friend(s) with the Namekian Dragon Balls after spending most of the arc playing cat-and-mouse trying to find them, while Vegeta methodically bulldozes through Freeza's entire army. By the time Goku arrives, literally all of the army except the Ginyu Force are gone. The other Dragon Teamsters go on the adventure completely of their own accord and they're pretty much self-sufficient for the entire arc until Goku arrives, by which point they're all suddenly incapable of doing anything themselves.