Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

Well looking back, in Chapter 53, Jaco tells Piccolo that Seven Three's "copied moves" are as strong as his own. So if it's just the moves then how strong is Seven Three normally?

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I’ve always been confused about this - each reread I seem to walk away with a different interpretation. This last go-around I noticed that after 7-3 copies Gohan and Piccolo in Ch. 56, Shimorekka says, “Any training you may have done? Totally worthless now. Since 7-3 copies the way you are right now.”

Which... isn’t necessarily incompatible with “only the moves are copied” but a more direct reading certainly implies they are copied overall.

Makes pinning No. 17 down especially difficult. Then again, Piccolo comments, “Even with infinite stamina, it’s not like he can recover immediately” - so maybe we’re meant to understand that 7-3 has been weakened by the time 17 joins the fray?

[Nevaeh]

People still believe Beerus > Jiren/Blue fusion/MUI Goku?

I swear people overhype how powerful he really is.

It all comes from him being Toriyama's cat

All 3 sources (anime, movie and manga) have either showed or stated someone stronger than him

[Magnificent Ponta]

Well looking back, in Chapter 53, Jaco tells Piccolo that Seven Three's "copied moves" are as strong as his own. So if it's just the moves then how strong is Seven Three normally?

That's difficult to say.

Jaco says he's 'plenty strong' on his own even without copied abilities, but Gohan is obviously stronger than him, and Android #17 thinks he's 'pretty weak'. When using Piccolo's moves, he seems somewhat less affected by the mutual headbutt than Piccolo is, but that might just be an android durability thing, similar to his infinite stamina.

Saganbo is stated by Vegeta to be weaker than Kid Trunks, but I guess being the leader doesn't necessarily mean he's ordinarily the strongest. But maybe OG73-I fits somewhere in that general bracket of power?

I’ve always been confused about this - each reread I seem to walk away with a different interpretation. This last go-around I noticed that after 7-3 copies Gohan and Piccolo in Ch. 56, Shimorekka says, “Any training you may have done? Totally worthless now. Since 7-3 copies the way you are right now.”

Which... isn’t necessarily incompatible with “only the moves are copied” but a more direct reading certainly implies they are copied overall.

Makes pinning No. 17 down especially difficult. Then again, Piccolo comments, “Even with infinite stamina, it’s not like he can recover immediately” - so maybe we’re meant to understand that 7-3 has been weakened by the time 17 joins the fray?

I tend to think of it this way:

So, on the subject of OG73-I and his copy ability, I think it's important to make some slightly pedantic distinctions to try to understand what's going on with him and his overall strength:

• He's stated to be able to copy abilities of others,

• These abilities are as strong/effective as if the users themselves used them, and

• This extends from natural species abilities and esoteric ki abilities, to 'moves' as simple as punches and kicks.

What he is not stated to do, as a rule, is to himself become as strong as the person he's copied - that is, intrinsically. So, for instance, if he copies Gohan's abilities, he can throw a harder punch or shoot a more powerful ki blast than if he's using Piccolo's abilities, because those are things that Gohan can do. But it doesn't mean that he intrinsically has Gohan's power in himself. While Piccolo thinks of it as useful to consider it like fighting a perfect personal copy, in the strictest sense this isn't quite right, as OG73-I retains his own characteristics (like infinite stamina) in addition to Piccolo's moves.

This explains why, for instance, Shimorekka can insist that it would have been better for OG73-I to copy Gohan than Piccolo - harder-hitting abilities all around - but at the same time, Android 17 can say he "seems pretty weak to me", even when OG73-I is using Moro's ability set. He's not becoming as strong as Moro when he uses the ability set; he's just using his magical abilities to the same strength that Moro would when using them. This is a fine distinction, but it does make a difference; OG73-I would only be able to take a hit, for instance, as well as he ever could himself, not as well as Moro could (because that characteristic would be an epiphenomenon reliant on Moro's actual power, rather than a 'move' he uses).

[Xeno Goku Black]

Jaco says he's 'plenty strong' on his own even without copied abilities, but Gohan is obviously stronger than him, and Android #17 thinks he's 'pretty weak'. When using Piccolo's moves, he seems somewhat less affected by the mutual headbutt than Piccolo is, but that might just be an android durability thing, similar to his infinite stamina.

Saganbo is stated by Vegeta to be weaker than Kid Trunks, but I guess being the leader doesn't necessarily mean he's ordinarily the strongest. But maybe OG73-I fits somewhere in that general bracket of power?

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Piccolo did seem worse off but would Seven-Three have been stronger than normal at that point if he'd received power from Moro? I don't know if he was empowered or not at the time.

I'd have thought Saganbo would be the strongest normally but not necessarily if Seven-Three is an Android.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Thanks Ponta!

That distinction helps a little - if I’m understanding correctly, putting everything together, since punches and kicks count as copied moves as well, 7-3 has the same “attack power” and movesets as the person he copies, but it’s not a perfect copy of the person’s “battle power” since things like defense and speed stay the same? Do I have that right?

As an aside, Saganbo was only stated to be weaker than Trunks before his first Moro-boost; since he gets the better of SSJ3 Goku post-Moro-boost, and seems to be a bit stronger than the others, perhaps 7-3’s “natural power” (post-Moro boost) is about on par with SSJ3 Goku? That would fit in with No. 17’s power floor being above SSJ3 circa the Tournament of Power.

[GodVegetto91]

So did this chapter change anyone’s mind on where UI Goku and Moro 73 stand in relation to Broly and Gogeta Blue???

[Gogeta_Blue]

UI Goku should be comfortably above Gogeta, Broly, and Jiren at this point. He's so far above Moro-7-3 that the dude broke his own arm punching Goku in the chest. Then Goku turned around and called him the toughest guy he's ever fought.

Edit: There's also the fact Goku's body in UI didn't even feel the need to dodge Moro-7-3's strike. It straight up tanked it.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku: ”What a waste... I've never met such a tough guy like you before!”

Does this prove Morus/Mero >>>> Broly and Beerus?! ????

It’s pretty much a strength-related assessment, confirming that Moro is stronger than Jiren and Broli. Beerus is still debatable, because Goku doesn’t know what he is truly capable of, and it has been foreshadowed a future rivalry.

This argument is so worn out

Beerus is so played out now. Yet people in this Fandom still insist on making him a moving goalpost.

Which argument? What are you talking about? Did you miss the prophecy the Oracle Fish made or that Goku has no clue on Beerus’ full strength?

Broly was compared to Beerus. Not Jiren. So if Beerus moves up, so does Broly.

Goku made the comparison and since Goku doesn’t have the knowledge about Beerus’ full strength, his statement is up to debate.

[The Undying]

So Goku pretty much confirmed that Moro, the pre-Merus copied Seven-Three absorbed Moro, is stronger than anyone else he's fought so far. That would likely include Beerus, Broly, and Jiren. Pretty interesting.

Still not sure why people doubted it, but it's nice to have confirmation he's at least stronger than Jiren or Broly. The interesting thing for me is (as I suspected) it took another UI user to stand up to UI.

I think it's probably safe to say we're breaching Angel tiers at this point, or just about getting there at least.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, it's a good thing Goku didn't use the word "probably" or phrase it as a question, just to be on the safe side.

So how do you guys think each Moro version fares in comparison to the past tough guys?

-Prime Moro.
To me he is somewhere in between FP Jiren and Unlimited Potential Jiren, closer to the latter. He claims to have surpassed the power of the gods(he meant GoDs, I guess), so he has to be in the realm of Jiren who also had surpassed at least one of them before the ToP.

-Moro7-3 (how much stronger than Broly?) I'd say quite stronger considering Goku has no doubt in his mind he stands above all of them. Maybe a little weaker than Gogeta Blue? that comment about fusion not working against him has nothing to do with power, IMO. I'm not so sure he was already stronger than Gogeta.


I'm leaving Morus7-3 out, of course. Planet Moro I don't even want to know...

[JewyB]

Yeah, it's a good thing Goku didn't use the word "probably" or phrase it as a question, just to be on the safe side.

So how do you guys think each Moro version fares in comparison to the past tough guys?

-Prime Moro.
To me he is somewhere in between FP Jiren and Unlimited Potential Jiren, closer to the latter. He claims to have surpassed the power of the gods(he meant GoDs, I guess), so he has to be in the realm of Jiren who also had surpassed at least one of them before the ToP.

-Moro7-3 (how much stronger than Broly?) I'd say quite stronger considering Goku has no doubt in his mind he stands above all of them. Maybe a little weaker than Gogeta Blue? that comment about fusion not working against him has nothing to do with power, IMO. I'm not so sure he was already stronger than Gogeta.


I'm leaving Morus7-3 out, of course. Planet Moro I don't even want to know...

Planet Moro beats every one of them because he's an all-rounder.

[shadd21]

Is it safe at this point to call Goku, the strongest non-angel character in the series?

[Devilman21/]

On the subject of how Beerus compares to Moro, someone on Facebook mentioned that Goku witnessed Beerus & the other destroyers duke it out during the Zen Exhibition Match in the manga. I believe it was stated that the Gods were going all out as per instruction from the Grand Priest. If this holds up this would directly disprove the common talking point that Goku hasn't seen Beerus at full power. Meaning he could've easily compared Moro 7x3's power to what he felt from Beerus & co. Back then. Even if he didn't see Beerus at FP I'm assuming he could make an educated guess based on what he saw. So maybe: Moro 7x3 > Beerus?

Just some food for thought.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Is it safe at this point to call Goku, the strongest non-angel character in the series?

Zeno aside from he surely is. If Moro > Broly and Broly > Beerus then no God of Destruction should stand a remote chance against him.

I was wondering how Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta fairs against him now. I'd say considering that even though Broly was outmatched by Gogeta entirely, the gap wasn't nearly as big as it was between Moro and Goku.

So I'd put Goku above any fusions too.

[Hugo Boss]

On the subject of how Beerus compares to Moro, someone on Facebook mentioned that Goku witnessed Beerus & the other destroyers duke it out during the Zen Exhibition Match in the manga. I believe it was stated that the Gods were going all out as per instruction from the Grand Priest. If this holds up this would directly disprove the common talking point that Goku hasn't seen Beerus at full power. Meaning he could've easily compared Moro 7x3's power to what he felt from Beerus & co. Back then. Even if he didn't see Beerus at FP I'm assuming he could make an educated guess based on what he saw. So maybe: Moro 7x3 > Beerus?

Just some food for thought.

Actually, there was a point the fight became too difficult for him to keep up, so Goku doesn’t have the full knowledge. Not to say he can’t make an educated guess based on what he saw, but his assessment might be off, to an unknown extent.

[Koitsukai]

Is it safe at this point to call Goku, the strongest non-angel character in the series?

Zeno aside from he surely is. If Moro > Broly and Broly > Beerus then no God of Destruction should stand a remote chance against him.

I was wondering how Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta fairs against him now. I'd say considering that even though Broly was outmatched by Gogeta entirely, the gap wasn't nearly as big as it was between Moro and Goku.

So I'd put Goku above any fusions too.

Yeah, Goku just stood up and broke Moro's wrist with his chest, didn't even flinch, and he had just said Moro was stronger than Broly.
While Gogeta trashed Broly, he never showed THAT kind of superiority, he dodged, never tanked and Broly even blocked a kick. UI destroyed a stronger character with 3 blows while showcasing he didn't even need to defend himself.

[Devilman21/]

On the subject of how Beerus compares to Moro, someone on Facebook mentioned that Goku witnessed Beerus & the other destroyers duke it out during the Zen Exhibition Match in the manga. I believe it was stated that the Gods were going all out as per instruction from the Grand Priest. If this holds up this would directly disprove the common talking point that Goku hasn't seen Beerus at full power. Meaning he could've easily compared Moro 7x3's power to what he felt from Beerus & co. Back then. Even if he didn't see Beerus at FP I'm assuming he could make an educated guess based on what he saw. So maybe: Moro 7x3 > Beerus?

Just some food for thought.

Actually, there was a point the fight became too difficult for him to keep up, so Goku doesn’t have the full knowledge. Not to say he can’t make an educated guess based on what he saw, but his assessment might be off, to an unknown extent.

Fair point. However keep in mind just because he wasn't able to follow the battle, doesn't mean he couldn't sense it. He should've been able to debate Beerus's power & then compare that to the power he sensed from Moro. So I personally feel it holds up.

[BWri]

3) Alternatively, Beerus might start training and master Ultra Instinct himself, thus evening the odds vs. Goku.

Regardless it's safe to say that current Goku and Moro are above Beerus.

I'm pretty sure Beerus is just going to do some off screen training for the rematch and perhaps even master UI himself if he isn;t doing so already. But I still think he's top dog below the angels. Just a hunch. UI's just going to sharpen what he's already capable of. But I'll admit it's a crazy thing to think when Goku is now coming up dead even with an angel, even if that angel is likely weaker than Whis and Vados. Unless Moro isn't accessing all of Merus' power at the moment.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yeah, it's a good thing Goku didn't use the word "probably" or phrase it as a question, just to be on the safe side.

So how do you guys think each Moro version fares in comparison to the past tough guys?

Moro on Namek was probably in the same ballpark as Fused Zamasu and Top, he was said to be weaker than Super Saiyan Blue which they would be by that point.

Prime Moro should be above Full Power Jiren. Obviously the anime version he would be because he was only on par with Ultra Instinct Sign Goku where Moro was a step above a likely stronger version. Highly unlikely he's on Limit Breaker Jiren's level though considering he could hold his own against Ultra Instinct, even if it wasn't at the level it's at now.

Moro 7-3 should be stronger than Broly and Jiren. To what extent is completely up in the air. He never seemed more impressive than Jiren. Apparently he is, to a point Goku didn't have to say he was "probably" the toughest so I'd guess there's a bigger gap between Moro and Broly than there is Broly and Beerus.