"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Chapter 65 thoughts:

Goku's motivation with the Senzu wasn't exactly what I expected, in that he was more sincerely interested in redeeming Moro than I thought he would be, but it doesn't feel out of place either, especially with Merus having recently pointed out his potential for turning villains around. Of course he stands to gain from it on the off-chance it works as well, as is always partially the motivation in trying to let strong opponents go. As others have pointed out, the thrust of the chapter could have worked without the Senzu beat as well, but it also doesn't harm anything, and gives us a bit of insight into Goku. I can take arguments that perhaps it would have been better to have Goku simply be outsmarted, so that an eventual Goku-Vegeta victory wouldn't require outright fumbles from either party, but then ... if Moro could have gotten ahold of the arm without the Senzu anyway, like I said, I'm unsure that harms anything.

UI vs. UI is quite fun. That fight had me smiling.

My sole issue is with the cliffhanger, as Moro fusing with the Earth is unexpected and interesting, but undercut as a tense chapter ending by the presence of Vegeta, who has exactly the technique for this scenario. It's for the best that the story found a way to bring Vegeta back into play; my issue is simply how this beat plays as a cliffhanger in serialization. It could easily wind up not mattering in collected format if hurdles to Vegeta pulling off the technique are brought up next chapter--such that the tension at the end isn't Moro being the Earth (with the easy answer of Vegeta's technique removing him), but rather trying to help Vegeta pull off the technique--but it probably would have benefitted the cliffhanger in the moment to have introduced those hurdles before the chapter cut. The fact that it didn't has me slightly nervous that in fact no hurdles are planned, with Vegeta's use of the technique simply being the ending (very telegraphed) surprise play itself, but it isn't worth fretting or critiquing until we see how it actually plays out/reads as a whole.

[Kinokima]

My sole issue is with the cliffhanger, as Moro fusing with the Earth is unexpected and interesting, but undercut as a tense chapter ending by the presence of Vegeta, who has exactly the technique for this scenario. It's for the best that the story found a way to bring Vegeta back into play; my issue is simply how this beat plays as a cliffhanger in serialization. It could easily wind up not mattering in collected format if hurdles to Vegeta pulling off the technique are brought up next chapter--such that the tension at the end isn't Moro being the Earth (with the easy answer of Vegeta's technique removing him), but rather trying to help Vegeta pull off the technique--but it probably would have benefitted the cliffhanger in the moment to have introduced those hurdles before the chapter cut. The fact that it didn't has me slightly nervous that in fact no hurdles are planned, with Vegeta's use of the technique simply being the ending (very telegraphed) surprise play itself, but it isn't worth fretting or critiquing until we see how it actually plays out/reads as a whole.

This is exactly why I am worried because while Vegeta coming into play here would make sense thematically and it would mean all the build up with him is not entirely wasted it’s also way too obvious. I mean pretty much everyone is guessing this is what will happen at this point

If it is Vegeta I don’t think he will be able to do it without help. I think the others will have to work to distract Moro so he doesn’t know what Vegeta is doing but that’s the only hurdle I can think of.

I don’t want another twist but I am afraid there still will be one.

[Totamo]

People are asking the wrong questions. Its not should Goku be written this way, is did he need to be? Because he is never once on the backfoot in this chapter. The senzu didn't change anything. The angel powers didn't change anything, the lecture didn't change anything so what was the point of Goku doing this? Toyotaro even knows how insane this is because he has 4 characters telling Goku to finish him off.

I'm bewildered by that decision but the moro stuff is cool , it be much cooler if he could fuse to planets without angel powers.
I swear, Its unfair how good modern dragon ball could be if you just had an eraser and a move/place button.

[Cipher]

People are asking the wrong questions. Its not should Goku be written this way, is did he need to be? Because he is never once on the backfoot in this chapter. The senzu didn't change anything. The angel powers didn't change anything, the lecture didn't change anything so what was the point of Goku doing this? Toyotaro even knows how insane this is because he has 4 characters telling Goku to finish him off.

We would come out of the arc with an entirely different understanding of Goku had the scene of attempted leveling/redemption not been in there, right?

Isn't that enough of a point, even if it doesn't affect the plot on an outline/cause-and-effect level?

You could argue the merits of what we'd have without it, but I don't think it can be said that its presence has no impact at all, considering it informs our understanding of the main character coming out of it.

[Kinokima]

People are asking the wrong questions. Its not should Goku be written this way, is did he need to be? Because he is never once on the backfoot in this chapter. The senzu didn't change anything. The angel powers didn't change anything, the lecture didn't change anything so what was the point of Goku doing this? Toyotaro even knows how insane this is because he has 4 characters telling Goku to finish him off.

We would come out of the arc with an entirely different understanding of Goku had the scene of attempted leveling/redemption not been in there, right?

Isn't that enough of a point, even if it doesn't affect the plot on an outline/cause-and-effect level?

You could argue the merits of what we'd have without it, but I don't think it can be said that its presence has no impact at all, considering it informs our understanding of the main character coming out of it.

But couldn’t that have been written into the plot without the Senzu. Moro was badly hurt after his first scuffle with Goku but he wasn’t at death’s door. I still don’t see narratively speaking why the Senzu itself was needed.

Moro could have gone to prison and not died without the Senzu

[Koitsukai]

Just the galaxy in danger does sound underwhelming, but I think they chose the galaxy over the universe because that would've motivated/forced Beerus to intervene. And for whatever reason they are choosing not to have him intervene. It wouldn't make sense if the universe is on the edge of destruction and Beerus just remains with his arms crossed inside that little bubble.

[Lord Beerus]

I also love how Goku lectures Moro about never training and having to steal energy from other people to get stronger, yet this attitude was never seen during the Cell arc or the Majin Boo arc. You know... the arcs where the main villains were absorbing (and literally eating) other people and martial artists to get stronger.

[Koitsukai]

Recent thought: I would've preferred if Moro earned his second wind(well, third actually) by using his magic to somehow trick Goku in order to recover his hand, instead of being handed the chance (no pun intended). Or make him a little more cunning, Goku powered down to his base, that was a good opportunity to trick him, tell him yes, I'm going with Jaco ok, and them bam.

[Kinokima]

I also love how Goku lectures Moro about never training and having to steal energy from other people to get stronger, yet this attitude was never seen during the Cell arc or the Majin Boo arc. You know... the arcs where the main villains were absorbing (and literally eating) other people and martial artists to get stronger.

I mean this is the theme of the arc. Vegeta also tells Moro he wants to see him fight with his own power

And Goku does train & earn the power he has so I don’t see why he can’t bring this up with Moro. Moro’s whole character is about stealing power from others and using it as his own. Not just in the copy ability from 7:3 but also stealing energy from planets and the other characters.

While Buu and Cell absorbed people I would argue “stealing” power from others isn’t exactly what their characters were about. Well okay maybe Buu sort of was more so than Cell to me since he did gain the power of who he absorbed. But that was also only really one form of Buu.

[Koitsukai]

I also love how Goku lectures Moro about never training and having to steal energy from other people to get stronger, yet this attitude was never seen during the Cell arc or the Majin Boo arc. You know... the arcs where the main villains were absorbing (and literally eating) other people and martial artists to get stronger.

I mean this is the theme of the arc. Vegeta also tells Moro he wants to see him fight with his own power

And Goku does train & earn the power he has so I don’t see why he can’t bring this up with Moro. Moro’s whole character is about stealing power from others and using it as his own. Not just in the copy ability from 7:3 but also stealing energy from planets and the other characters.

While Buu and Cell absorbed people I would argue “stealing” power from others isn’t exactly what their characters were about. Well okay maybe Buu sort of was more so than Cell to me since he did gain the power of who he absorbed. But that was also only really one form of Buu.

Vegito did tell Buuhan something like "you fused with like 5 people to reach that power, so why shouldn't I?" as a response to some shit Buuhan said.

Goku also called out Cell on using other people's techniques.

[Anomandaris]

Really liked this chapter and love the arc overall - twist of Moro fusing w/ the planet is also very cool.

I do think we see where this is going - Vegeta is going to use his ability to separate Moro from the planet and then he and/or Goku are going to wax Moro - Vegeta will probably kill him and scoff at Goku for being a dummy and/or weakling with his mercy.

It FEELS LIKE we should naturally head to Universe 6 for a Saiyan arc but I am generally intrigued where they are taking this next - I sincerely hope "End of Z" is retro'ed or erased, never liked that ending - I would of course love for them to find a way to include Gohan, Piccolo, etc into an arc even more but after all this time I don't see them "catching up" again, so I can live w/ that - Maybe once the torch is passed from Toriyama this can happen we'll just have to see where Dragonball goes.

My one worry is, who can really challenge Goku now that he's mastered the ultimate ability? I guess we'll see some sort of Purple SSJ at some point, LOL - "Hey Vegeta, did you know drinking a ton of wine turns our hair purple? ACTIVATE DRUNK POWERS!"

[The Undying]

The senzu didn't change anything.

It doesn't change anything on a plot level. It does, however, change things on a thematic level.

The senzu proves a point. Moro is given the opportunity to freely decide between going back to prison or sowing more chaos - a decision that wouldn't have been afforded had he not been restored - and demonstrates that even with Moro at full power (in the previous chapters, he'd been knocked around by Merus before his initial fight against UI Goku) the second option still wouldn't make a difference. It's a sign of respect for his strength, but also a test. "Freedom of choice doesn't mean freedom from consequence."

This is why Goku tells him that he'll never enjoy freedom again after breaking his arm and making him aware that he really has no more say in the matter. Practically speaking, it's totally unnecessary, but interesting characters don't always do practical things.

[OLKv3]

I also love how Goku lectures Moro about never training and having to steal energy from other people to get stronger, yet this attitude was never seen during the Cell arc or the Majin Boo arc. You know... the arcs where the main villains were absorbing (and literally eating) other people and martial artists to get stronger.

He berates Super Boo for doing it. Once as himself, and once as Vegetto

[Magnificent Ponta]

I also love how Goku lectures Moro about never training and having to steal energy from other people to get stronger, yet this attitude was never seen during the Cell arc or the Majin Boo arc. You know... the arcs where the main villains were absorbing (and literally eating) other people and martial artists to get stronger.

Cell is pretty different - he's specifically designed to absorb the Humans and those Androids to complete himself; that's not a question of training or theft of power from others, it's his own personal intrinsic teleology at play. Even so, Goku foregrounds, and expresses total confidence in, "the power we built together" when it comes to Gohan, which serves as an implicit contrast of a similar sort - he simply makes that attitude more explicit here.

With respect to Buu, while Goku doesn't lecture, both he and Vegetto comment on the unfairness of Buu constantly absorbing people.

[Hellspawn28]

What if they have to destroy the Earth in order to destory Moro? It's possible the next arc will have them going to find the Super Dragon Balls to wish back the Earth.

[Triggered Vegeta]

What if they have to destroy the Earth in order to destory Moro? It's possible the next arc will have them going to find the Super Dragon Balls to wish back the Earth.

Let's hope Vegeta jumps in and just seperates Moro from the Earth.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I hope Moro is just defused after a few struggles before he fucks the galaxy. Moro needs to be killed, it'd be insane to keep him alive after defusion.

[Tai Lung]

I pointed that out in the past, apparently it's a "Toyotaro thing" to underestimate the destructive capabilities of these beings. I mean, Fused Zamasu and Angel Moro would have to be Kid Buu tier if they can only destroy a galaxy... but that clearly can't be. For some reason, Toyotaro just doesn't want to make the villains badass, universal busters.

The anime also had Frieza threaten he can destroy a planet.. on Tournament of Power of all things
After that line I became aware the staff just doesn't have the mindset to put destructive capacity much higher now.

Which is weird, because the Beerus vs Goku anime fight had some spectacular effects that weren't repeated since.

that was said by frieza final form (not golden) which is just a reference to namek however in the series they remained constant in their statements





anyway it's strange if jiren surpasses the gods .... merus and moro should be able to do it

[eledoremassis02]

I think the problem, at least for me, is that the formula is really starting to overstay it's welcome. They really are stretching now with having to find people stronger than the last battle. Up until (arguably Tien, tho I really feel like it wasn't becoming a thing until Piccolo Jr.) it was Goku fighting humans in creative/humorous ways. Ever since King Piccolo, it became, the enemy is vastly stronger than the one before. B.O.G was refreshing and but also kinda downplayed which brought back some of the Dragon Ball charm. Revival of F really kind of felt like a tongue and cheek of what Dragon Ball had become but instead kind of became a rough draft on how to take the series forward.

As much as I'm glad that we're getting newer material and the fact the manga has a continuation, I feel like the brand is really kind of getting way too repetitive (you think that should have happened sooner ). I started getting this feeling when Vegeta actually seemed like he may top Goku but it became business as usual and while it might change, I don't feel like it's going to be worth it or if it will stay (giving other characters chances).

Honestly, and I thought this would be the one, I would like to see one villain whose power wasn't the main factor and it was actually skill and technique. The closest we've gotten was Goku Black, but I'd love some Dead Zone dynamics, that's something that made the Piccolo Jr. fight so awesome.

[Kinokima]

I think the problem, at least for me, is that the formula is really starting to overstay it's welcome. They really are stretching now with having to find people stronger than the last battle. Up until (arguably Tien, tho I really feel like it wasn't becoming a thing until Piccolo Jr.) it was Goku fighting humans in creative/humorous ways. Ever since King Piccolo, it became, the enemy is vastly stronger than the one before. B.O.G was refreshing and but also kinda downplayed which brought back some of the Dragon Ball charm. Revival of F really kind of felt like a tongue and cheek of what Dragon Ball had become but instead kind of became a rough draft on how to take the series forward.

As much as I'm glad that we're getting newer material and the fact the manga has a continuation, I feel like the brand is really kind of getting way too repetitive (you think that should have happened sooner ). I started getting this feeling when Vegeta actually seemed like he may top Goku but it became business as usual and while it might change, I don't feel like it's going to be worth it or if it will stay (giving other characters chances).

Honestly, and I thought this would be the one, I would like to see one villain whose power wasn't the main factor and it was actually skill and technique. The closest we've gotten was Goku Black, but I'd love some Dead Zone dynamics, that's something that made the Piccolo Jr. fight so awesome.

This is what I was hoping from this arc honestly. Oh there is a villain who can steal power so Goku and Vegeta will have to think outside the box

Unfortunately it really came down to a power match again