How would you rank Dragonball compared to other Shonen?

[nickzambuto]

Any time I try and watch another shonen, I just see everything from how it derived from Dragon Ball.

Like “ok that character is the Vegeta. That character is the Freeza. Now he’s transforming. Ok the main character just will powered his strength to increase and punched the bad guy in the face. Now this is the epilogue scene where they throw a party. There’s the pervy character.” Etc etc.

[JewyB]

Any time I try and watch another shonen, I just see everything from how it derived from Dragon Ball.

Like “ok that character is the Vegeta. That character is the Freeza. Now he’s transforming. Ok the main character just will powered his strength to increase and punched the bad guy in the face. Now this is the epilogue scene where they throw a party. There’s the pervy character.” Etc etc.

You've just opened up the floodgates for Gohan "fans" talking about how Attack On Titan handled him better, aha.

[UI Peter]

Dragon Ball is better than both of those but that’s not much of an accomplishment.

How so?

Namely they’re both terrible so being better isn’t an accomplishment.

The original run of Dragonball/DBZ is probably the pinnacle of anime storytelling. It's the Citizen Kane of anime.

I......no?

How are they terrible?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Oda is the kind of writer who foreshadows stuff hundreds of chapters in advance and makes you amazed at what was hiding in plain sight.

You know the kind of details that Toriyama sometimes reveals in interviews, like how 16 was modeled after Dr. Gero's son who was killed by Goku when he fought the RRA, or how Taopaipai killed Mr. Satan's master, or how Beerus was the one who sealed Rou Kaioshin in the Z Sword?

If Oda had been writing it, all of that stuff would have been in the original manga, with the intention of setting up those things in later arcs the whole time.

He pretty much never forgets even the smallest plot point he has established, and they're all there for a reason.

[JewyB]

Oda is the kind of writer who foreshadows stuff hundreds of chapters in advance and makes you amazed at what was hiding in plain sight.

You know the kind of details that Toriyama sometimes reveals in interviews, like how 16 was modeled after Dr. Gero's son who was killed by Goku when he fought the RRA, or how Taopaipai killed Mr. Satan's master, or how Beerus was the one who sealed Rou Kaioshin in the Z Sword?

If Oda had been writing it, all of that stuff would have been in the original manga, with the intention of setting up those things in later arcs the whole time.

He pretty much never forgets even the smallest plot point he has established, and they're all there for a reason.

But that still doesn't counter that the series is long. The series being long is an objective fact, and can be viewed subjectively. Some people prefer long-format stories, others prefer one-shots, you can't say either opinion is more or less legitimate based on how much foreshadowing the author does.

Doctor Who is long. It says nothing about the quality of the show itself, but it is long.

[ABED]

Oda is the kind of writer who foreshadows stuff hundreds of chapters in advance and makes you amazed at what was hiding in plain sight.

You know the kind of details that Toriyama sometimes reveals in interviews, like how 16 was modeled after Dr. Gero's son who was killed by Goku when he fought the RRA, or how Taopaipai killed Mr. Satan's master, or how Beerus was the one who sealed Rou Kaioshin in the Z Sword?

If Oda had been writing it, all of that stuff would have been in the original manga, with the intention of setting up those things in later arcs the whole time.

He pretty much never forgets even the smallest plot point he has established, and they're all there for a reason.

But that still doesn't counter that the series is long. The series being long is an objective fact, and can be viewed subjectively. Some people prefer long-format stories, others prefer one-shots, you can't say either opinion is more or less legitimate based on how much foreshadowing the author does.

Doctor Who is long. It says nothing about the quality of the show itself, but it is long.

But Doctor Who isn't one long protracted story.

[JewyB]

But Doctor Who isn't one long protracted story.

Doesn't matter, are you saying it isn't long?

I am making no other comments on anything about the shows themselves, other than the objective statement that they are long. It's not my argument that that's a bad thing, it's someone elses, i'm just disputing that fact that saying it is long cant be a valid complaint.

[ABED]

But Doctor Who isn't one long protracted story.

Doesn't matter, are you saying it isn't long?

I am making no other comments on anything about the shows themselves, other than the objective statement that they are long. It's not my argument that that's a bad thing, it's someone elses, i'm just disputing that fact that saying it is long cant be a valid complaint.

It does matter. It's not a single protracted story. You can start pretty much anywhere and watch in nearly any order. You don't have to watch them all to get the entire story because it's not one story. It's a lot of one offs. The structures are completely different. Being long is absolutely a valid complaint. Long form storytelling often falters because it is too long. The taffy is pulled to long so it gets saggy in the middle. It's why most serialized series that treat a season of TV like one long movie sag in the middle.

Being long is absolutely a valid criticism.

[JewyB]

It does matter. It's not a single protracted story. You can start pretty much anywhere and watch in nearly any order. You don't have to watch them all to get the entire story because it's not one story. It's a lot of one offs. The structures are completely different. Being long is absolutely a valid complaint. Long form storytelling often falters because it is too long. The taffy is pulled to long so it gets saggy in the middle. It's why most serialized series that treat a season of TV like one long movie sag in the middle.

See well now you're just arguing to agree with the argument i was making and thats just silly. I literally said i was pointing out being long was a valid complaint. And pointed out that two long shows were long. You're arguing with me to say they are long but in a specific way(which is irrelevant to my point, yes apples are tasty but I'm talkign about how they're green, sometimes), and that being long is a valid complaint.

If you're just going to try and apply extra arguments into a point I'm making so you can tell me you're making the point better, that's fine, but i'm not going to indulge you any further on it.

EDIT: Just clarifying this further for anyone else, I have two points, One Piece is a long show/manga/whatever, the other is that a show/manga/whatever being long is a perfectly valid complaint.

Also a bonus point i guess of "Doctor Who is also a long running show".

[ABED]

Sorry I misread your point. We coulda just left it at that.

[MasenkoHA]

My justification is there no reason for an allegedly serialized story to be that long no matter how badly one wants to pretend there’s some carefully laid out plan where every element matters. Even Pokemon essentially hits the reset button every time there’s a new generation of games to advertise.

Dr.Who, to my understanding, doesn’t expect you to watch from the beginning.


And while I generally lean towards anime that’s in the 26 episodes or less category there’s a big difference between “incredibly short” and “over decade long”

[ABED]

I'm of the opinion no show should go past the 6 season mark, and no matter how serialized the story is each chapter or episode should be about solving some single issue. In DB, each episode or chapter is some phase of the battle.

The longer a single story goes, the more obstacles have to be put in the path to the characters' goals, and no matter how talented the writer is, after a certain point, the obstacles inevitably become more and more convoluted after a certain point.

[Planetnamek]

I'm of the opinion no show should go past the 6 season mark, and no matter how serialized the story is each chapter or episode should be about solving some single issue. In DB, each episode or chapter is some phase of the battle.

The longer a single story goes, the more obstacles have to be put in the path to the characters' goals, and no matter how talented the writer is, after a certain point, the obstacles inevitably become more and more convoluted after a certain point.

I think some shows can justify it("The Shield" comes to mind) but yes most drama series do feel stretched out if they go on that long(Supernatural comes to mind).

[MasenkoHA]

Legit the only show I’ve seen go past 6 seasons and still be good is Buffy and even then season 7 is mediocre and from my understanding the comics are god awful.

[ABED]

I'm of the opinion no show should go past the 6 season mark, and no matter how serialized the story is each chapter or episode should be about solving some single issue. In DB, each episode or chapter is some phase of the battle.

The longer a single story goes, the more obstacles have to be put in the path to the characters' goals, and no matter how talented the writer is, after a certain point, the obstacles inevitably become more and more convoluted after a certain point.

I think some shows can justify it("The Shield" comes to mind) but yes most drama series do feel stretched out if they go on that long(Supernatural comes to mind).

It works for sitcoms like Cheers and Friends, but neither were super serialized. Sure there were long running story arcs but neither were plot driven shows.

Some shows can have bounce back seasons and even later seasons of the can be really great but the best years of any story are typically within the first 5/6 years. 5/6 years is a good run. The story can find its footing and get the most out of its premise without retreading

[JulieYBM]

I dunno, I think plenty of other series are better crafted.

Shin Seiki Evangelion is the greatest television series of all time, though. That's really my only strong feeling on ranking series'.

Legit the only show I’ve seen go past 6 seasons and still be good is Buffy and even then season 7 is mediocre and from my understanding the comics are god awful.

I couldn't make it past the first season when I tried watching it in my twenties. That apparently it is filled with homophobia and transphobia and the like kills any interest I have in picking it back up, too.

[UI Peter]

Oda is the kind of writer who foreshadows stuff hundreds of chapters in advance and makes you amazed at what was hiding in plain sight.

You know the kind of details that Toriyama sometimes reveals in interviews, like how 16 was modeled after Dr. Gero's son who was killed by Goku when he fought the RRA, or how Taopaipai killed Mr. Satan's master, or how Beerus was the one who sealed Rou Kaioshin in the Z Sword?

If Oda had been writing it, all of that stuff would have been in the original manga, with the intention of setting up those things in later arcs the whole time.

He pretty much never forgets even the smallest plot point he has established, and they're all there for a reason.

But that still doesn't counter that the series is long. The series being long is an objective fact, and can be viewed subjectively. Some people prefer long-format stories, others prefer one-shots, you can't say either opinion is more or less legitimate based on how much foreshadowing the author does.

Doctor Who is long. It says nothing about the quality of the show itself, but it is long.

But how is being long a bad thing? There is no universal objective limit to how long or short a story ought to be.

[JewyB]

But how is being long a bad thing? There is no universal objective limit to how long or short a story ought to be.

Its subjecive, thats the point, there's no rules about how it should or shouldn't be, so it can't be objective, it comes down to personal preference, which when it comes to discussing whether or not someone personally enjoys something, is more important than clarifying the objectively something can't be "too long".

[UI Peter]

My justification is there no reason for an allegedly serialized story to be that long no matter how badly one wants to pretend there’s some carefully laid out plan where every element matters. Even Pokemon essentially hits the reset button every time there’s a new generation of games to advertise.

Dr.Who, to my understanding, doesn’t expect you to watch from the beginning.


And while I generally lean towards anime that’s in the 26 episodes or less category there’s a big difference between “incredibly short” and “over decade long”

You failed to provide any objective reason as to why a story being really long is a bad thing, especially since there's no objective universal limit to story length.

And its a well known fact that Oda does plan out every single plot element in One Piece months in advance, even causal readers/viewers know this. He isn't like Toriyama who just makes things up as he goes along, which is the main source of plotholes and retcons in Dragonball.

[UI Peter]

I'm of the opinion no show should go past the 6 season mark, and no matter how serialized the story is each chapter or episode should be about solving some single issue. In DB, each episode or chapter is some phase of the battle.

The longer a single story goes, the more obstacles have to be put in the path to the characters' goals, and no matter how talented the writer is, after a certain point, the obstacles inevitably become more and more convoluted after a certain point.

The Simpsons' peak years was its 1st 8 seasons. The Sopranos, which is widely considered the greatest drama ever, is basically 7 seasons long, and best of One Piece consists of 10 years worth of content.