Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

Broly, Vegito and Gogeta confirmed > MUI, Jiren and Moro

Beerus says he can quickly take out Moro, problem solved.

[ZombieVito]

the movie is direct canon to the manga, so there is no "manga gogeta" and "manga broly"

It's canon to both anime and manga.

[Dragon Wukong]

Broly, Vegito and Gogeta confirmed > MUI, Jiren and Moro

Beerus says he can quickly take out Moro, problem solved.

Beerus' statement is ambiguous, it's possible he simply knew that breaking the gem would solve things where Goku did not, which may not inherently be a matter of Beerus' strength in comparison to Goku's.

That being said, Beerus suggesting he could intervene at all certainly suggests a level of strength far above what initially seemed to be the case. I'd certainly put him above Jiren now at the very least. Assuming Goku and Shin's assessments are still accurate though, that'd likely put Broly as stronger still than even UI Goku, and SSB Fusion stronger than UI as well.

Well it doesn't help that this chapter just didn't come out and say anything. People are going to continue arguing on this board saying things are certain when they're not

[Cipher]

Toyotaro and/or Toriyama certainly seem to have a different understanding of Beerus' strength than I did, but oh well.

Yes, the scene is (intentionally?) ambiguous enough that he could possibly be heading in to do something Goku couldn't/wouldn't know how to do that doesn't rely on pure strength (although Goku himself knows Hakai), but the fact that he's so confident about being able to wade in to end things at all does speak to a pretty different interpretation than what I'd been working with.

[GodVegetto91]

Broly, Vegito and Gogeta confirmed > MUI, Jiren and Moro

Beerus says he can quickly take out Moro, problem solved.

100% agreed!

Broly = Beerus = SSB Vegito (FT Arc) >>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku, Merus, and Moro Merus > Moro 73 > Prime Moro >>>>> Jiren.

[GodVegetto91]

the movie is direct canon to the manga, so there is no "manga gogeta" and "manga broly"

Not true at all. This is 100% your own assertion.

There is actually more evidence for the contrary, given that Gogeta briefly appears in the manga in his “perfected” SSJ Blue state. And ofcourse Broly appears aswell in both forms.

[Hugo Boss]

So, Beerus is U7 top dog again (or should I say top cat), second to only Whis, I suppose. I wouldn’t say I’m surprised given how much we have been discussing his strength recently.

[GodVegetto91]

This means that Gogeta Blue from the Broly movie was the only mortal to ever OFFICIALLY surpass the GoD Tier altogether. By surpassing Beerus (arguably the Nr. 1 GoD, since there is no need for any of the other GoDs to be stronger than him since they literally serve no purpose like Beerus does who has to act as a “MOTIVATOR” for Goku to push him higher, i.e. a “Moving Goal Post”!) has he officially surpassed ALL Gods of Destruction.

And since Merus is literally an Angel (Low Angel Tier) who somehow happens to be weaker than Beerus, (An extremely, phenomenally, and exceptionally high GoD Tier character...!)

Means that Gogeta is COMFORTABLE Angel Level!

[The Undying]

That being said, Beerus suggesting he could intervene at all certainly suggests a level of strength far above what initially seemed to be the case.

I'd always assumed he could intervene. Beerus knows things that Goku either doesn't know (his sealing technique, for example) or isn't as proficient with (Hakai, for example) and as a God of Destruction, should be well-equipped to at least lend his support if not end things outright. He may have already known about the crystal weakness, and remember that Goku could have ended Moro about as quickly after mastering Ultra Instinct.

I'm not convinced this confirms anything about Beerus' standing in relation to Goku, but if he's indeed stronger than Goku with only a limited UI, it makes me question Super's (repeated) description of what the technique allows its users to accomplish when mastered. If it's true that he's still stronger, I'd rather like to think he was training off-screen... although there's virtually no evidence for it, and the whole idea of Beerus doing anything is shaky at best.

So, personally, my stance remains unchanged. We'd need a more direct comparison before definitively concluding anything.

[Devilman21/]

Yeah I'm not convinced these drafts prove Beerus > UI Goku/Angel Moro. All he says is that he plans to "lend a hand" and that he hopes to finish this battle as quick possible. Beerus still being stronger than UI Goku and Angel Moro would be pretty dumb imo. They just keep moving the goal post in an attempt to keep him relevant.

The whole scene kinda rubbed me wrong tbh. Like Beerus finally is about to get involved but they pull him away at the last minute. God forbid Beerus actually do his job. That said I am happy that the next arc will likely be exploring the consequences of this arc & Beerus's inaction. Universe 7 is in complete ruin, Merus got erased, and Beerus did absolutely nothing to prevent this. You would think a multi-versal tournament where the complete erasure of you and your universe would be the swift kick in the ass universe 7's gods would need to start doing their job, but maybe this will do the trick.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't know why people here are claiming that Beerus is > Ultra Instinct and Moro... It's made clear that Moro can't be defeated through brute strength. He must be removed "surgically", otherwise the Earth would blow up and the entire galaxy could be destroyed as a result. Beerus is the only one who can kill Moro without damaging anything.

That doesn't mean Goku couldn't kill Moro if he wanted to, he just has no way to remove him surgically without damaging the galaxy. No, Goku's Hakai is not nearly comparable to that of a real Destroyer. Compare when Beerus erased Present Zamasu vs. when Goku tried to erase Fused Zamasu, there's no comparison. Beerus' Hakai is much faster, deadlier, and more painful.

[GodVegetto91]

I don’t know why the majority in this thread seem to believe Beerus is below UI Goku and Angel Moro/Merus, but this makes no sense.

So far, the ONLY characters that have been compared to Beerus in anyway, are Fusions or Fusion level characters..

These include (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito, and MAX SSJ Full Power Broly...

Makes sense.. Since Broly forced a POST Tournament of Power Gogeta to go SSJ Blue AND use full power on top of that within that state.

That’s why Broly lost..

(Post ToP) Gogeta Blue >>>>>> (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito = Broly = Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku, Angel Merus, Moro Merus > Moro 73 > Prime Moro >>>>> Jiren, and UI Goku (ToP).

Remember that Base Gogeta was stronger than SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta in the Broly movie (as the feats show),

And Base Vegito was stronger than PERFECTED SSJ Blue Goku in the manga! (As the feats show.)

Now imagine THAT going SSJ Blue! And you know what I mean..

Is the strength difference between UI Goku and Perfected SSJ Blue bigger than the strength difference between SSJ Blue and BASE Goku???

I don’t think so.

UI > UI Sign > SSBE > Perfected SSJ Blue.

(That’s only 3 levels/steps removed.)

Now lets look at SSJ Blue Vs Base.

SSB > SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS1 > Base.

(That’s 5 levels removed!)

But wait, Base Fusion is already stronger than Goku’s max!

So that’s now 6 levels above Goku..

And then there’s the fact that post ToP Fusions can even go beyond SSJ Blue to SSJ Blue Evolved. So there’s literally no chance in hell that Goku is above that. Even with UI.

It’s a different cake altogether. Fusions are simply too OP.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I don’t know why the majority in this thread seem to believe Beerus is below UI Goku and Angel Moro/Merus, but this makes no sense.

So far, the ONLY characters that have been compared to Beerus in anyway, are Fusions or Fusion level characters..

These include (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito, and MAX SSJ Full Power Broly...

Makes sense.. Since Broly forced a POST Tournament of Power Gogeta to go SSJ Blue AND use full power on top of that within that state.

That’s why Broly lost..

(Post ToP) Gogeta Blue >>>>>> (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito = Broly = Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku, Angel Merus, Moro Merus > Moro 73 > Prime Moro >>>>> Jiren, and UI Goku (ToP).

Remember that Base Gogeta was stronger than SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta in the Broly movie (as the feats show),

And Base Vegito was stronger than PERFECTED SSJ Blue Goku in the manga! (As the feats show.)

Now imagine THAT going SSJ Blue! And you know what I mean..

Is the strength difference between UI Goku and Perfected SSJ Blue bigger than the strength difference between SSJ Blue and BASE Goku???

I don’t think so.

UI > UI Sign > SSBE > Perfected SSJ Blue.

(That’s only 3 levels/steps removed.)

Now lets look at SSJ Blue Vs Base.

SSB > SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS1 > Base.

(That’s 5 levels removed!)

But wait, Base Fusion is already stronger than Goku’s max!

So that’s now 6 levels above Goku..

And then there’s the fact that post ToP Fusions can even go beyond SSJ Blue to SSJ Blue Evolved. So there’s literally no chance in hell that Goku is above that. Even with UI.

It’s a different cake altogether. Fusions are simply too OP.

Curious to why you have Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI Goku? As we have seen, Beerus dodged a few God's, then got treated like every other God... Even was a bloody mess by then end... Keep in mind it was everyone for themselves by this point... Unlike at the start where everyone jumped Beerus.

GP even said, if they don't at least try.. they would be erased. Quitela & Beerus have a rivalry and hate each other so it makes no sense for either of them to hold anything back.

Belmod was shown to be able to damage every God... In fact every God could damage one another, so it isn't like there was a giant gap between them.

Goku literally 3 shot someone as stong as Jiren if not stronger like he was garbage. Jiren > Belmod .. now imagine if Instead of Belmod, you add current Goku to the mix? I put money he'd body the vast majority of them Imo.

Gogeta never once stood there and tanked blows from Broly & always evaded his ki attacks. If the gap was so huge wouldn't he just stand there like Goku did to Moro?

Yeah Gogeta was beating him, but he kept coming back for more... At some points Gogeta was actually putting a shit ton of power into his attacks and that still wasn't enough.

Gogeta was using a good chunk of his power to put down someone on Beerus level, So I wouldn't go as far as to say Gogeta is comfortably Angel tier.

Whis could do that to Broly with at most 2 chops. Also, I wouldn't go as far as to say Beerus>Merus as I don't believe Moro could even utilize the full extent of Merus full power... Cuz his body could not even handle it for not even 2 min... Before breaking down.

[GodVegetto91]

I don’t know why the majority in this thread seem to believe Beerus is below UI Goku and Angel Moro/Merus, but this makes no sense.

So far, the ONLY characters that have been compared to Beerus in anyway, are Fusions or Fusion level characters..

These include (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito, and MAX SSJ Full Power Broly...

Makes sense.. Since Broly forced a POST Tournament of Power Gogeta to go SSJ Blue AND use full power on top of that within that state.

That’s why Broly lost..

(Post ToP) Gogeta Blue >>>>>> (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito = Broly = Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku, Angel Merus, Moro Merus > Moro 73 > Prime Moro >>>>> Jiren, and UI Goku (ToP).

Remember that Base Gogeta was stronger than SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta in the Broly movie (as the feats show),

And Base Vegito was stronger than PERFECTED SSJ Blue Goku in the manga! (As the feats show.)

Now imagine THAT going SSJ Blue! And you know what I mean..

Is the strength difference between UI Goku and Perfected SSJ Blue bigger than the strength difference between SSJ Blue and BASE Goku???

I don’t think so.

UI > UI Sign > SSBE > Perfected SSJ Blue.

(That’s only 3 levels/steps removed.)

Now lets look at SSJ Blue Vs Base.

SSB > SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS1 > Base.

(That’s 5 levels removed!)

But wait, Base Fusion is already stronger than Goku’s max!

So that’s now 6 levels above Goku..

And then there’s the fact that post ToP Fusions can even go beyond SSJ Blue to SSJ Blue Evolved. So there’s literally no chance in hell that Goku is above that. Even with UI.

It’s a different cake altogether. Fusions are simply too OP.

Curious to why you have Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI Goku? As we have seen, Beerus dodged a few God's, then got treated like every other God... Even was a bloody mess by then end... Keep in mind it was everyone for themselves by this point... Unlike at the start where everyone jumped Beerus.

GP even said, if they don't at least try.. they would be erased. Quitela & Beerus have a rivalry and hate each other so it makes no sense for either of them to hold anything back.

Belmod was shown to be able to damage every God... In fact every God could damage one another, so it isn't like there was a giant gap between them.

Goku literally 3 shot someone as stong as Jiren if not stronger like he was garbage. Jiren > Belmod .. now imagine if Instead of Belmod, you add current Goku to the mix? I put money he'd body the vast majority of them Imo.

Gogeta never once stood there and tanked blows from Broly & always evaded his ki attacks. If the gap was so huge wouldn't he just stand there like Goku did to Moro?

Yeah Gogeta was beating him, but he kept coming back for more... At some points Gogeta was actually putting a shit ton of power into his attacks and that still wasn't enough.

Gogeta was using a good chunk of his power to put down someone on Beerus level, So I wouldn't go as far as to say Gogeta is comfortably Angel tier.

Whis could do that to Broly with at most 2 chops. Also, I wouldn't go as far as to say Beerus>Merus as I don't believe Moro could even utilize the full extent of Merus full power... Cuz his body could not even handle it for not even 2 min... Before breaking down.

Did you even read my post that you’re responding to here???

It’s literally all in there. All of it!

Beerus was confident that he could take out Moro in this chapter, while Whis wasn’t 100% confident in Goku’s ability to do so.

The long awaited, legendary rematch between Goku and Beerus hasn’t happened yet.

So until that happens, Goku can NEVER be above Beerus! Since that would defeat the whole purpose of their rematch in the first place.

Beerus and Broly are the only characters compared to a SSJ Blue Fusion of Goku and Vegeta.. And we all know that Gogeta/Vegito’s Base forms are already stronger than Goku and Vegeta’s most powerful forms. That’s the way Fusion works.

Beerus is a moving goal post.

[The Undying]

Beerus is a moving goal post.

However you interpret Beerus' strength, I don't think that's necessarily true at all.

In the previous arc's exhibition match, Goku was in complete awe of the Hakaishin and their power. Vegeta's then-completed Blue was strong enough to force Beerus to get serious, but when he did, it was no contest. While I wouldn't assume Beerus is currently still above Goku, given the throughline of Ultra Instinct and Jiren surpassing Vermoud, I also wouldn't assume he's that far behind given what the other chapters are very clear about establishing.

It's more like the goalpost is deliberately ambiguous, rather than shifting, and it lends further credence to the idea that the "gaps" aren't as big or multiplicative as people tend to think.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I don’t know why the majority in this thread seem to believe Beerus is below UI Goku and Angel Moro/Merus, but this makes no sense.

So far, the ONLY characters that have been compared to Beerus in anyway, are Fusions or Fusion level characters..

These include (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito, and MAX SSJ Full Power Broly...

Makes sense.. Since Broly forced a POST Tournament of Power Gogeta to go SSJ Blue AND use full power on top of that within that state.

That’s why Broly lost..

(Post ToP) Gogeta Blue >>>>>> (Future Trunks Arc) SSJ Blue Vegito = Broly = Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku, Angel Merus, Moro Merus > Moro 73 > Prime Moro >>>>> Jiren, and UI Goku (ToP).

Remember that Base Gogeta was stronger than SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta in the Broly movie (as the feats show),

And Base Vegito was stronger than PERFECTED SSJ Blue Goku in the manga! (As the feats show.)

Now imagine THAT going SSJ Blue! And you know what I mean..

Is the strength difference between UI Goku and Perfected SSJ Blue bigger than the strength difference between SSJ Blue and BASE Goku???

I don’t think so.

UI > UI Sign > SSBE > Perfected SSJ Blue.

(That’s only 3 levels/steps removed.)

Now lets look at SSJ Blue Vs Base.

SSB > SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS1 > Base.

(That’s 5 levels removed!)

But wait, Base Fusion is already stronger than Goku’s max!

So that’s now 6 levels above Goku..

And then there’s the fact that post ToP Fusions can even go beyond SSJ Blue to SSJ Blue Evolved. So there’s literally no chance in hell that Goku is above that. Even with UI.

It’s a different cake altogether. Fusions are simply too OP.

Curious to why you have Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI Goku? As we have seen, Beerus dodged a few God's, then got treated like every other God... Even was a bloody mess by then end... Keep in mind it was everyone for themselves by this point... Unlike at the start where everyone jumped Beerus.

GP even said, if they don't at least try.. they would be erased. Quitela & Beerus have a rivalry and hate each other so it makes no sense for either of them to hold anything back.

Belmod was shown to be able to damage every God... In fact every God could damage one another, so it isn't like there was a giant gap between them.

Goku literally 3 shot someone as stong as Jiren if not stronger like he was garbage. Jiren > Belmod .. now imagine if Instead of Belmod, you add current Goku to the mix? I put money he'd body the vast majority of them Imo.

Gogeta never once stood there and tanked blows from Broly & always evaded his ki attacks. If the gap was so huge wouldn't he just stand there like Goku did to Moro?

Yeah Gogeta was beating him, but he kept coming back for more... At some points Gogeta was actually putting a shit ton of power into his attacks and that still wasn't enough.

Gogeta was using a good chunk of his power to put down someone on Beerus level, So I wouldn't go as far as to say Gogeta is comfortably Angel tier.

Whis could do that to Broly with at most 2 chops. Also, I wouldn't go as far as to say Beerus>Merus as I don't believe Moro could even utilize the full extent of Merus full power... Cuz his body could not even handle it for not even 2 min... Before breaking down.

Did you even read my post that you’re responding to here???

It’s literally all in there. All of it!

Beerus was confident that he could take out Moro in this chapter, while Whis wasn’t 100% confident in Goku’s ability to do so.

The long awaited, legendary rematch between Goku and Beerus hasn’t happened yet.

So until that happens, Goku can NEVER be above Beerus! Since that would defeat the whole purpose of their rematch in the first place.

Beerus and Broly are the only characters compared to a SSJ Blue Fusion of Goku and Vegeta.. And we all know that Gogeta/Vegito’s Base forms are already stronger than Goku and Vegeta’s most powerful forms. That’s the way Fusion works.

Beerus is a moving goal post.

What Whis said, doesn't mean much as Beerus prob can just Hakai Moro or has abliities not known to us yet... Possibly already knows about the forehead crystal so obviously taking that out would be the fast way to stopping Moro.

Nothing in this chapter makes it clear Beerus > Goku... And even if he was he isn't >>>>>>>>>> Goku like you claim. Idk why you highball him so much tbh. Goku could literally obliterate Moro, but the Earth would be at stake.

That is why Goku is so hesitant to do anything. Also you talk about Fusion boost, but the UI boost as shown is enormous as well. Moro literally one shot UI Omen... Then proceeds to get 3 shot by UI(Complete) soon after.

Yes, that fight with Beerus will go down eventually, but by that point Beerus will display full control over UI. I don't believe Beerus(exhibition) can body current Goku at all. If anything, Beerus is so confident now cuz he prob already completed UI off screen.

[GodVegetto91]

Curious to why you have Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI Goku? As we have seen, Beerus dodged a few God's, then got treated like every other God... Even was a bloody mess by then end... Keep in mind it was everyone for themselves by this point... Unlike at the start where everyone jumped Beerus.

GP even said, if they don't at least try.. they would be erased. Quitela & Beerus have a rivalry and hate each other so it makes no sense for either of them to hold anything back.

Belmod was shown to be able to damage every God... In fact every God could damage one another, so it isn't like there was a giant gap between them.

Goku literally 3 shot someone as stong as Jiren if not stronger like he was garbage. Jiren > Belmod .. now imagine if Instead of Belmod, you add current Goku to the mix? I put money he'd body the vast majority of them Imo.

Gogeta never once stood there and tanked blows from Broly & always evaded his ki attacks. If the gap was so huge wouldn't he just stand there like Goku did to Moro?

Yeah Gogeta was beating him, but he kept coming back for more... At some points Gogeta was actually putting a shit ton of power into his attacks and that still wasn't enough.

Gogeta was using a good chunk of his power to put down someone on Beerus level, So I wouldn't go as far as to say Gogeta is comfortably Angel tier.

Whis could do that to Broly with at most 2 chops. Also, I wouldn't go as far as to say Beerus>Merus as I don't believe Moro could even utilize the full extent of Merus full power... Cuz his body could not even handle it for not even 2 min... Before breaking down.

Did you even read my post that you’re responding to here???

It’s literally all in there. All of it!

Beerus was confident that he could take out Moro in this chapter, while Whis wasn’t 100% confident in Goku’s ability to do so.

The long awaited, legendary rematch between Goku and Beerus hasn’t happened yet.

So until that happens, Goku can NEVER be above Beerus! Since that would defeat the whole purpose of their rematch in the first place.

Beerus and Broly are the only characters compared to a SSJ Blue Fusion of Goku and Vegeta.. And we all know that Gogeta/Vegito’s Base forms are already stronger than Goku and Vegeta’s most powerful forms. That’s the way Fusion works.

Beerus is a moving goal post.

What Whis said, doesn't mean much as Beerus prob can just Hakai Moro or has abliities not known to us yet... Possibly already knows about the forehead crystal so obviously taking that out would be the fast way to stopping Moro.

Nothing in this chapter makes it clear Beerus > Goku... And even if he was he isn't >>>>>>>>>> Goku like you claim. Idk why you highball him so much tbh. Goku could literally obliterate Moro, but the Earth would be at stake.

That is why Goku is so hesitant to do anything. Also you talk about Fusion boost, but the UI boost as shown is enormous as well. Moro literally one shot UI Omen... Then proceeds to get 3 shot by UI(Complete) soon after.

Yes, that fight with Beerus will go down eventually, but by that point Beerus will display full control over UI. I don't believe Beerus(exhibition) can body current Goku at all. If anything, Beerus is so confident now cuz he prob already completed UI off screen.

You’re in denial and are coping here. That much is clear. The fact is, these draft pages disagree with your headcanon.

The key to understanding all this lies in understanding the overpoweredness of a BLUE Fusion.. You conveniently keep ignoring that it seems.

It’s impossible for UI Goku to be above someone who is 6 levels above Perfected SSJ Blue Goku..

[Dragon Wukong]

Beerus is a moving goal post.

However you interpret Beerus' strength, I don't think that's necessarily true at all.

In the previous arc's exhibition match, Goku was in complete awe of the Hakaishin and their power. Vegeta's then-completed Blue was strong enough to force Beerus to get serious, but when he did, it was no contest. While I wouldn't assume Beerus is currently still above Goku, given the throughline of Ultra Instinct and Jiren surpassing Vermoud, I also wouldn't assume he's that far behind given what the other chapters are very clear about establishing.

It's more like the goalpost is deliberately ambiguous, rather than shifting, and it lends further credence to the idea that the "gaps" aren't as big or multiplicative as people tend to think.

I presume this as well honestly. I got the impression (in the manga anyhow) the gaps aren't supposed to be massive anymore, but rather gradual shifts toward/surpassing the strongest fighters introduced throughout the serires.

[Triggered Vegeta]

"It’s impossible for UI Goku to be above someone who is 6 levels above Perfected SSJ Blue Goku"

Gogeta was not impressive at all... He's barely above Beerus as shown with Broly... If anything Beerus could do a lot better than Broly and actually land attacks on Gogeta unlike Broly who is a mindless ape. UI is leagues above current Perfected SSB which is way above Broly arc SSB. Those 6 levels you speak of don't mean anything.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

To even properly beat a God of Destruction or someone on that level, you need to be so much stronger than a SSB so as to be ridiculous.

Fusion is one way, specifically SSB multiplied by SSB. And Ultra Instinct has been consistently shown as another way.

So much so that it actually TRIVIALIZES opponents shown to be at the level of a God of Destruction.

Right now, there is a major contradiction between the narrative of these opponents and power-ups coming out that were as strong as or stronger than Beerus's stated and demonstrated level, and the idea that Beerus must still somehow be above even them. It feels like an unnecessary shifting of the goal-post that ends up coming off as a retcon done to preserve Beerus's unnecessary status as top dog.