Super or GT poll

[Grimlock]

They did tell stories

Didn't see any in the tournaments.

Time flowing smoothly? WTF?!

Sagas taking place in different years.

Better use of the multiverse is vague.

Then let me rephrase it: Multiverse used for something more substantial than tournaments.

No such thing as better fanservice. Also, fanservice is based in nostalgia. So which is it?

There is. Movie 14 is an example of good fanservice. First movie, first major piece of work released in years, so they intentionally wanted everyone to appear in it. That's fanservice, a subtle one. A good one. To me, specifically, a bit redundant because I don't forget Tarble OVA, which was essentially the same thing, everyone being there. But I'm taking into consideration the grand scheme of things.

Goten, Trunks (and Marron) as kids (despite them being teenagers, with Marron almost there) can only be for nostagia, I can't think of any other reason. That's bad nostalgia. It also brings problems in a narrative sense.

Movie 15 is an example of bad fanservice. It came to be because seemingly Toriyama listened to song about Freeza and wanted bring him back. And so he did. And the result was subpar to say the least.

What stuff implemented from interviews.

Makaio/Makaioshin. Yamoshi. Alternate dimension.

[ABED]

Didn't see any in the tournaments.

I don't know what to say to this. They weren't complicated stories but they were obviously stories. What the hell does something have to be to be a story? There's certainly a very obvious one in the TOP - the best fighters in the multiverse fight for survival.

The arcs did take place in different years.

Then let me rephrase it: Multiverse used for something more substantial than tournaments.

Such as? They're just places to go, like when they flew to other planets in GT and that didn't go too well did it?

All the characters appearing isn't fanservice. It makes sense that Bulma's friends would show up for her birthday. Fanservice is the storyteller saying "'memba that?" "Yeah, I 'memba!"

GT bares little resemblence to the tone and feel of Dragon Ball. It's a bland approximation. Super is like every other series revival, a shell of its former self.

Weird. I dont agree about GT at all. It feels very much like Dragon Ball to me. Especially Toei's version of what Dragon Ball is.

It doesn't to me. It feels very bland and almost melancholic.

[ZeroNeonix]

Not to be that guy, but Super technically isn't a sequel, since Dragon Ball Z ends at a later point that Super. It's actually more a midquel.

As for the poll, despite all of Super's many...many flaws, I generally enjoyed it from start to finish. GT on the other hand... It could never hold my attention for very long. It's just so boring, and it makes no sense. It's not even entertaining levels of bad.

[Matches Malone]

What did you want out of Super?

More than what we got. I know that's a very vague answer, but despite being 131 episodes long, it still felt like we got little to nothing of substance out of it.

When it comes to the tournaments, just look at the 3 in DB and compare them to Super's and you'll see where my issues are. In the 22nd Tenkaichi, we got great character development for Roshi and Tien, we got to see how strong Goku and Krillin's friendship was, and one of the most shocking endings to a DB arc. Can you honestly say that Super's tournaments had that kind of quality writing ?

[ZeroNeonix]

What did you want out of Super?

More than what we got. I know that's a very vague answer, but despite being 131 episodes long, it still felt like we got little to nothing of substance out of it.

Yeah, I agree with that. Super does not feel like it is as long as it is. Part of that, of course, might be that they started by wasting time reanimating Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, despite the movies already doing both better... But even when they finally got to original territory, there wasn't a lot going on. We got a tournament between two universe, which was perfectly serviceable, but it didn't really offer much in the way of plot. It also set up for something Super has still not bothered to do. Remember how Vegeta said he'd like to meet the king of Universe 6's Sadala? What happened with that? Did they ever actually intend on having Vegeta visit Sadala, or was that just a throwaway line?

Back when we learned that there were a whole 11 other universes to explore, I kinda expected there'd be a lot more exploration of those universes. Something kinda like GT, perhaps. Only instead of traveling the universe, they'd be traveling a multiverse, and hopefully less terrible. But the most interesting arc we got was the Goku Black arc, which is set on Earth. It's a future version of Earth, but it's still Earth. Heck Beerus even used the Super Dragon Balls to revive Universe 6's Earth. Why don't we go there, and learn what exactly destroyed it? Have the humans learned from their mistakes after being dead for all of this time, or did they get back into their same old feuds? That's something I'd like to see explored.

Or we can do another tournament... That's cool too, I guess.

[Matches Malone]

Remember how Vegeta said he'd like to meet the king of Universe 6's Sadala? What happened with that? Did they ever actually intend on having Vegeta visit Sadala, or was that just a throwaway line?

There was a lot of that in Super. Gohan's desire to find a power above Blue as an earthling. Freeza's "plan" to overthrow Zeno. The Namakian book of legends. That angel acting strange when her universe was erased. Hit's great assassin powers the tournament rules prevented us from seeing. Super is by far the most directionless series I've ever seen, as it literally just throws random ideas at the wall to see what sticks, not thinking twice of it all lining up together or not.

[ZeroNeonix]

There was a lot of that in Super. Gohan's desire to find a power above Blue as an earthling. Freeza's "plan" to overthrow Zeno. The Namakian book of legends. That angel acting strange when her universe was erased. Hit's great assassin powers the tournament rules prevented us from seeing. Super is by far the most directionless series I've ever seen, as it literally just throws random ideas at the wall to see what sticks, not thinking twice of it all lining up together or not.

Jesus Christ. So much wasted potential. You know, it seems to me like GT and Super had opposite problems. GT was too weird, but Super was too safe. GT had a lot of new ideas, but poor execution. Super had an overreliance on nostalgia to the point of it feeling lazy at times. Why can't they find some middle ground? They need to show some faith in Super to stand on its own feet.

[Matches Malone]

It seems to me like GT and Super had opposite problems. Why can't they find some middle ground?

They did in 2013 with the BOG movie. That movie is the perfect balance of new and familiar. You've got the familiar look of DB that people recognize, but it brought in great new concepts such as Beerus and Whis alongside great character development for Goku and Vegeta. BOG is the only post original manga story that feels like it belongs in the manga. Generally speaking, that movie has all the positives of both shows but none of the negatives.

[ZeroNeonix]

They did in 2013 with the BOG movie. That movie is the perfect balance of new and familiar. You've got the familiar look of DB that people recognize, but it brought in great new concepts such as Beerus and Whis alongside great character development for Goku and Vegeta. BOG is the only post original manga story that feels like it belongs in the manga. Generally speaking, that movie has all the positives of both shows but none of the negatives.

Agreed. Battle of Gods really had me excited for Dragon Ball's revival. Resurrection F was okay, but it was the start of a trend. I only appreciate it now because of how entertaining Frieza has been since his revival. Especially in DBS: Broly.

You know what I think they should have done? Start the original DBS content with the Universal Tournament, but use that as a way to give the main cast a taste of the huge multiverse they have to explore. Beerus encourages Goku and Vegeta to travel the multiverse, figuring it would be a good way for them to grow. It would have been similar to the time Roshi told Goku that rather than train, he should just explore and let the world be his teacher. They stop off in key Universe 6 locations (Earth, Sadala, maybe Namek), then they go beyond to other universes. Then after all their adventures, they cap it off with the Tournament of Power, bringing back characters Goku and Vegeta had met along the way. Rather than having to make all these characters up for the tournament, they would have had several ready. And since the audience would already know those characters, the idea of them being erased would carry more weight, since we wouldn't want to see them go. This format would have likely resulted in the series having much smaller stories rather than Z-length arcs, but I think it would have been warranted in this case.

I really hope when Super returns, they build up to something bigger than what we've got. An animated Moro arc would be nice, but that's still set in Universe 7. Come on, guys. lol

[Matches Malone]

You know what I think they should have done? Start the original DBS content with the Universal Tournament, but use that as a way to give the main cast a taste of the huge multiverse they have to explore. Beerus encourages Goku and Vegeta to travel the multiverse, figuring it would be a good way for them to grow. It would have been similar to the time Roshi told Goku that rather than train, he should just explore and let the world be his teacher. They stop off in key Universe 6 locations (Earth, Sadala, maybe Namek), then they go beyond to other universes. Then after all their adventures, they cap it off with the Tournament of Power, bringing back characters Goku and Vegeta had met along the way. Rather than having to make all these characters up for the tournament, they would have had several ready. And since the audience would already know those characters, the idea of them being erased would carry more weight, since we wouldn't want to see them go. This format would have likely resulted in the series having much smaller stories rather than Z-length arcs, but I think it would have been warranted in this case.

In order to pull this off, they'd have to plan out multiple arcs in advance, which would be impossible under the current leadership as they can't seem to plan out the one they're working on at the time. Before the Super defenders jump in with the whole "but Toriyama never planned out the original manga", that's false. Toriyama said in an interview that he was already thinking about Namek while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi, so there was advance planning involved with the original manga.

[precita]

There was a lot of that in Super. Gohan's desire to find a power above Blue as an earthling. Freeza's "plan" to overthrow Zeno. The Namakian book of legends. That angel acting strange when her universe was erased. Hit's great assassin powers the tournament rules prevented us from seeing. Super is by far the most directionless series I've ever seen, as it literally just throws random ideas at the wall to see what sticks, not thinking twice of it all lining up together or not.

Like all this stuff is probably still being planned. We know Freeza is still going to have an end goal or else they wouldn't have him brought back to life again. We know Goku/Vegeta will visit Sadala at some point, and likely to give Caulifa/Kale more stories in the future.

The Angels didn't act strange when their universes were erased, each one had a different reaction. Universe 9's Angel smiled because his universe was bottom of the barrel. When Gowasu's Universe 10 was erased, his angel looked visibly sad and said, "Gowasu." Likewise the Grand Priest and the others looked at Goku because they knew if someone won and made a selfish wish all the universes would stay gone including the winning one, but the tournament was created to preserve the lives of mortals.

Super is on a hiatus, it didn't end.

[Grimlock]

They weren't complicated stories but they were obviously stories. There's certainly a very obvious one in the TOP - the best fighters in the multiverse fight for survival.

Well, if you can call it that, then such a basic, barebone "plot" it is. Probably it would be beter to have more "complicated stories", as you put it.

The arcs did take place in different years.

Did it, though? Oh yeah, I remembered that the sagas took place in different years... Because outside sources stated it. What if we didn't have those sources? Would I still be able to say years have passed since Majin Buu saga? There is a gap of five years between Majin Buu and Universe 6 sagas, yet everyone looks the same. Strange, I feel that without outside sources, I could totally say all these new sagas take place in the same freaking year with Majin Buu saga.

Such as? They're just places to go, like when they flew to other planets in GT and that didn't go too well did it?

I like how you always rely on the "Dragon Ball GT already did it and it was horrible" card. It's like, because it was done once, they can't do it again and better. Have you never tried anything again in your life after you failed? Something's wrong if your answer to that question is "no".

All the characters appearing isn't fanservice. It makes sense that Bulma's friends would show up for her birthday.

That's just an in-universe excuse. I'm talking from an out-universe perspective. If I remember correctly, even Toriyama said so. The birthday was just an excuse to gather every character and show them to the audience. Fanservice.

[Lord Beerus]

I voted neither.

I like GT and Super in bits and pieces, but overall I find their existences just... unnecessary. I mean, yeah, it's more Dragon Ball content but it doesn't really do anything to develop the cast in ways that haven't been done before and done with much more subtlety and nuance.

To me, the best kind of sequel is something that feel integral in the continuation of story beyond a superficial level. And the big problem with GT and Super is -- despite their good intentions -- they don't feel like a necessary extension for Dragon Ball's story. You can skip GT and Super and nothing of value in really lost in grand scheme of Dragon Ball's narrative. And that in itself is a major problem. A sequel story should never feel redundant.

With GT, 95% of the main cast have retired from martial arts and the flair and charm that made Dragon Ball's adventure so organic and whimsical is missing. With Super, the main have stayed frozen in time and there is no sense of personal progression with the vain attempt of transformations and power-up to hopefully placate that need for character development.

For what it's worth I do commend both GT and Super for different aspects.

I really appreciate for wanting to dip its toes in uncharted territory and experiment with new concepts for antagonists. I still think to this day that the Evil Dragons arc had the most ingenious story concept Dragon Ball has ever come up with. The concept of the the Dragon Ball's themselves manifesting into physical being and becoming antagonists themselves could have produced an incredibly complex plot. It's just a shame GT botched the narrative at the first hurdle. And it actually committed to keeping the characters who were done with martial arts by the end of the manga out of plot most of the time.

With regards to Super, the aesthetic, especially from the Universal Survival arc and onwards, was the visual shot in the arm the franchise needed. It put so many previously unknown animators on the map and showed how talented they could even when they didn't have much time to work with. Dragon Ball Super Broly in particular deserves mention for being just glorious sakugabooru fest. And that not even taking into consideration how stellar and direction and storyboarding was.

My hope for a Dragon Ball sequel is taking the forward thinking of GT the even step (start with a new cast) and having the visual flair that Super had the luxury of, especially from the DBS Broly movie.

[Matches Malone]

To me, the best kind of sequel is something that feel integral in the continuation of story beyond a superficial level.

This is why I hold the BOG movie in such high regard, because out of the countless stories we've gotten since the manga ended, it's the only one that feels like it belongs in the manga as an essential story.

[ABED]

You know what I think they should have done? Start the original DBS content with the Universal Tournament, but use that as a way to give the main cast a taste of the huge multiverse they have to explore. Beerus encourages Goku and Vegeta to travel the multiverse, figuring it would be a good way for them to grow. It would have been similar to the time Roshi told Goku that rather than train, he should just explore and let the world be his teacher. They stop off in key Universe 6 locations (Earth, Sadala, maybe Namek), then they go beyond to other universes. Then after all their adventures, they cap it off with the Tournament of Power, bringing back characters Goku and Vegeta had met along the way. Rather than having to make all these characters up for the tournament, they would have had several ready. And since the audience would already know those characters, the idea of them being erased would carry more weight, since we wouldn't want to see them go. This format would have likely resulted in the series having much smaller stories rather than Z-length arcs, but I think it would have been warranted in this case.

In order to pull this off, they'd have to plan out multiple arcs in advance, which would be impossible under the current leadership as they can't seem to plan out the one they're working on at the time. Before the Super defenders jump in with the whole "but Toriyama never planned out the original manga", that's false. Toriyama said in an interview that he was already thinking about Namek while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi, so there was advance planning involved with the original manga.

Aside from his planning not being the norm planning is not the deciding factor for a good story. Where did this idea come from?

[Matches Malone]

Planning is not the deciding factor for a good story.

Of course not, but it still helps when you're working on something that will last as long as DB.

[ABED]

Planning is not the deciding factor for a good story.

Of course not, but it still helps when you're working on something that will last as long as DB.

Not necessarily. Serialized storytelling just boils down to asking “what happens next?”

[ekrolo2]

Toriyama bullshit his way through 90% of the DB with no plan. Which is fine when he's the guy doing the writing and art himself on a consistent basis. It's not a very desirable quality for the kind of role he had on Super where he went Stan Lee.

[Matches Malone]

Toriyama bullshit his way through 90% of the DB with no plan.

There are 2 things worth taking into account. 1- Toriyama did plan things out, such as planning Namek while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi arc, or going into the Buu arc knowing it would be the final one. 2- Although he didn't plan out as much as other authors did, he stated multiple times that he made sure everything fit together in a way that made it seem like it was all planned, which he succeeded with. Toriyama is doing neither with Super, there's no planning nor does everything fit perfectly together like in the original manga.

[ABED]

Toriyama bullshit his way through 90% of the DB with no plan.

There are 2 things worth taking into account. 1- Toriyama did plan things out, such as planning Namek while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi arc, or going into the Buu arc knowing it would be the final one. 2- Although he didn't plan out as much as other authors did, he stated multiple times that he made sure everything fit together in a way that made it seem like it was all planned, which he succeeded with. Toriyama is doing neither with Super, there's no planning nor does everything fit perfectly together like in the original manga.

that doesn’t mean planned. Clearly the Buu arc wasn’t. It just means paying attention to continuity.