"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Skar]

Yeah. That's exactly japanese producers main issue. They are so focused on the goal of telling stories...

I mean I'm aware there are stories that are milked until they're completely out of ideas but I'm talking about authors like Toriyama who ended their series while they were still successful. He could've easily slapped together a few more sagas after Buu but he didn't. I have no idea of what's going to happen but I'm saying fans shouldn't get disappointed if it doesn't continue past EoZ. I still say it's best to wait until at least Toriyama states he changed his mind about why he set it before EoZ in the first place.

[ChronoTwigger]

Yeah. That's exactly japanese producers main issue. They are so focused on the goal of telling stories...

I mean I'm aware there are stories that are milked until they're completely out of ideas but I'm talking about authors like Toriyama who ended their series while they were still successful. He could've easily slapped together a few more sagas after Buu but he didn't. I have no idea of what's going to happen but I'm saying fans shouldn't get disappointed if it doesn't continue past EoZ. I still say it's best to wait until at least Toriyama states he changed his mind about why he set it before EoZ in the first place.

My joke was about another point.
Well, a lot of stories naturally end at the peak of the narrative, or there will be no escalation (like in soap operas, that every event, as shocking could be, sound equal). One recent example of a savvy ending was DemonSlayer. But many successfull series of the past woorked this way - reach the highest peak, end.
Only recently, and to the sole reason of milking out the most (+ outsourcing everything + low quality standards + western people just want to rant on socials and don't care of deepness), series are parted into seasons - as long as customers react to a trend, you can spit out a new season, always keeping the narrative open and NOT reaching the peak (see for example OnePiece or MyHero Academia).

Toriyama WAS TOTALLY about ending DB at Frieza saga, but Toei pushed a lot about. The compromise is that Tori-sama JUST do broad stuff and Studio Bird instead do the whole work - in fact most of DBZ stuff is Studio Bird work.
If the compromise stand still, Toriyama will agreed to continue. Is a kinda "Ok, do whatever, I'll contribute, just don't bother me too much". As this compromise stand still, DragonBall will continue. For good or bad.
As for continuing past or before EOZ, I think at this stage it's not Toriyama choice, for the reasons above. For him, IT ALREADY ended. Twice.

[LightBing]

Didn't enjoy this chapter and ultimately this arc. The similarities - to put it nicely - to previous arcs are too much representing possibly: creative bankruptcy, executives interference or fear to create something new.

This arc is a big stain, I really enjoyed the manga until this point. If this is the rule going forward I just won't care.

One good takeaway from this chapter is Oob's insertion. It actually justifies him later, if Super is to be included in a story after Goku flies away with Oob.

[SupremeKai25]

Earth blob saved him IMO. He shouldn't look clean I think he needs that goat mouth but the Earth blob was new and exciting.

The goat mouth makes him look stupid, I can see the appeal it would have for some, but to me it just makes him look like a stupid animal. I think the human face with goat ears and fur all over his body makes him look more mysterious/ominous, because he looks like a human but he also doesn't look like a human at the same time, he's like an unsettling human/animal hybrid.

[Xeogran]

After his initial Seven-Three transformation, nothing really went right for him, did it? Everything he did prolonged his inevitable defeat. He absorbs Ultra Instinct? He's slowly crippled by the technique he wasn't ready for. He becomes one with Earth? He goes insane and becomes a ticking time bomb. The Tragedy of Goat-Man.

Moro-73 wrecked everyone at first. It's only Merus' interverence that completely messed him up. He thought Kaioshins were the highest ranked Gods (weird why such an OLD being never even heard of GoDs), and Merus' overwhelming power left him astonished. Then Goku turned MUI and it went downhill to him from there.

[Skar]

Toriyama WAS TOTALLY about ending DB at Frieza saga, but Toei pushed a lot about. The compromise is that Tori-sama JUST do broad stuff and Studio Bird instead do the whole work - in fact most of DBZ stuff is Studio Bird work.
If the compromise stand still, Toriyama will agreed to continue. Is a kinda "Ok, do whatever, I'll contribute, just don't bother me too much". As this compromise stand still, DragonBall will continue. For good or bad.
As for continuing past or before EOZ, I think at this stage it's not Toriyama choice, for the reasons above. For him, IT ALREADY ended. Twice.

Do you have a source because this is the first time I've heard any of this. Toriyama wanting to end the series at the Freeza saga and being forced to continue was only a rumor. In a recent interview, he said he struggled after Freeza and chose to end it at the Buu saga. EoZ is still his ending as far as we know since he chose this time period and everything has taken place before it. It's only fans hoping it'll continue past EoZ but no one involved has implied that yet.

[Gt91]

So Now that the arc is over, I think we as a community need to take a step back and ask how we got from this:

https://ibb.co/WDtzTrw

To this:

https://ibb.co/m8WDg1x

To me, the answer is:

1. Through Moro's inability to moderate his own appetites; and
2. Given Point 1, Moro's lack of a contingency plan for succeeding beyond his wildest dreams.

It seems a fitting (if not exactly original) case of a villain being undone by his own vices. He's ruined by his own appetites, and they destroy him.

Yes, in the end he became a planet himself, his own food (you are what you eat xD).

Those pictures reminded me of cell (2d form when he explodes).

[Mister_Popo]

Toriyama WAS TOTALLY about ending DB at Frieza saga, but Toei pushed a lot about. The compromise is that Tori-sama JUST do broad stuff and Studio Bird instead do the whole work - in fact most of DBZ stuff is Studio Bird work.
If the compromise stand still, Toriyama will agreed to continue. Is a kinda "Ok, do whatever, I'll contribute, just don't bother me too much". As this compromise stand still, DragonBall will continue. For good or bad.
As for continuing past or before EOZ, I think at this stage it's not Toriyama choice, for the reasons above. For him, IT ALREADY ended. Twice.

Do you have a source because this is the first time I've heard any of this. Toriyama wanting to end the series at the Freeza saga and being forced to continue was only a rumor. In a recent interview, he said he struggled after Freeza and chose to end it at the Buu saga. EoZ is still his ending as far as we know since he chose this time period and everything has taken place before it. It's only fans hoping it'll continue past EoZ but no one involved has implied that yet.

I tend to go with what Chrono says here. The real story as intended by the author has ended long ago. It was the original manga.
What we are getting in the whole of Super, is basically 'intended by the franchise'.
Purely commercially i don't see any fundamental reasons why the franchise would absolutely not want to go past EOZ.

[Matches Malone]

Toriyama WAS TOTALLY about ending DB at Frieza saga.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/

The real story as intended by the author has ended long ago. It was the original manga. What we are getting in the whole of Super, is basically 'intended by the franchise.

I completely agree with this. The only part of modern DB that Toriyama was involved with because he actually wanted to be was the BOG movie. Everything after is him basically agreeing to help out, but would otherwise not bother on his own.

[Miracles]

Toriyama WAS TOTALLY about ending DB at Frieza saga.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/

That's why I love this entire Kanzenshuu site. The sources and staff are off the charts.

Thanks for that.

[Skar]

I tend to go with what Chrono says here. The real story as intended by the author has ended long ago. It was the original manga.
What we are getting in the whole of Super, is basically 'intended by the franchise'.
Purely commercially i don't see any fundamental reasons why the franchise would absolutely not want to go past EOZ.

The Moro arc lasted two years and the manga might need another arc or two to reach EoZ by 2023 or 2024. According to Ajay, the anime is unlikely to return next year. It could be in 2022 or later but it would need a few years to adapt the new arcs since it ended. It'll be a while before we reach EoZ so I think fans are setting themselves up for disappointment if they act like it's guaranteed to continue after it. What we've learned from all these predictions is that it's best to wait for an official statement.

The only way I see it going past EoZ is if Toriyama changes his mind because so far every storyline since BoG has taken place before it. Heroes which has GT and Online characters takes place before EoZ as well. I could be wrong since I haven't played the recent games but I'm pretty sure there hasn't been any official DB content taking place after EoZ since this revival began.

[Brettjr25]

As far as why they wont go past Eoz there are reasons for it. I'm not saying that they wont or that they will but there are reasons. I forgot the actual literary term for it but it's the concept that "at the end of the day everything is the same".

With Super it seems evident that they don't want to take risks and that they are content with reusing the Lightning that was caught in a bottle. Despite the fact that change was normal in Dragonball, I believe they don't want to do anything that wasn't established in Z like GT did, that way people won't ridcule them for making wrong changes. This is the primary reason why Goten and Trunks hasn't changed a bit at all despite aging many years IMO.

[Skar]

As far as why they wont go past Eoz there are reasons for it. I'm not saying that they wont or that they will but there are reasons. I forgot the actual literary term for it but it's the concept that "at the end of the day everything is the same".

Status quo? I do think that's one of the reasons. Since the Tarble special, almost every official storyline has been a midquel taking place between the Buu saga and EoZ. There was Online which took place hundreds of years into the future after the main cast died of natural causes but it involves time travel to relive the original story.

Could Toriyama change his mind after all this time and decide to continue past EoZ? It's possible but I think it helps avoid the spread of misinformation when fans clarify they hope or think it might go past it and not claiming it's a guarantee. Passing off speculation as fact is what you find on clickbait sites but not on Kanzenshuu. If modern DB reaches EoZ in a few years and ends, I don't think anyone could claim it was a surprise or that we were misled.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I completely agree with this. The only part of modern DB that Toriyama was involved with because he actually wanted to be was the BOG movie. Everything after is him basically agreeing to help out, but would otherwise not bother on his own.

Toriyama was heavily involved in RoF, even more than in BoG. In fact, RoF was the first time that he actually wrote the script for a Dragon Ball movie (the BoG script was written by Yusuke Watanabe)

[Mister_Popo]

I tend to go with what Chrono says here. The real story as intended by the author has ended long ago. It was the original manga.
What we are getting in the whole of Super, is basically 'intended by the franchise'.
Purely commercially i don't see any fundamental reasons why the franchise would absolutely not want to go past EOZ.

The Moro arc lasted two years and the manga might need another arc or two to reach EoZ by 2023 or 2024. According to Ajay, the anime is unlikely to return next year. It could be in 2022 or later but it would need a few years to adapt the new arcs since it ended. It'll be a while before we reach EoZ so I think fans are setting themselves up for disappointment if they act like it's guaranteed to continue after it. What we've learned from all these predictions is that it's best to wait for an official statement.

The only way I see it going past EoZ is if Toriyama changes his mind because so far every storyline since BoG has taken place before it. Heroes which has GT and Online characters takes place before EoZ as well. I could be wrong since I haven't played the recent games but I'm pretty sure there hasn't been any official DB content taking place after EoZ since this revival began.

I don't make any statements about if the anime will return and when it will happen.
Fact is the manga is continuing and a new movie is being made.
If the story is progressing and Uub is being set up being so powerful i suppose that's because of a meaning.
Yes, it's because Uubs relevance and the EOZ should get a renewed context set in the light of the events that happened during Super (and the massively increased power levels).
But it might very well also be because they want to use that specific character later on, which would make sense.
I don't see any reasons why the end of Z would automatically mean the end of Super.

[Robo4900]

I'm disappointed that this latest chapter wasn't quite as bad as the last one. It was just kind of dull, going through the motions, closing things out. The last one was actively so bad it was good; insane bullshit abound.

That said, I'm glad the Moro arc is over. I hope mainline Dragon Ball is never this terrible again.

Looks like the hints are very heavily pointing to us imminently returning to the original manga ending and going past that, given how much this ending echoed the Boo arc, and with Oob showing up. I'm sure many will be pleased that that appears to be the direction, but if anything, I'm even more apprehensive.

Will they redo GT arcs and make them even worse? Or will they try to do "Original" stories, while desperately clinging to a static status quo just like we've had for the past few years of Super, which is essentially things GT did right, and doing them wrong? Certainly, either of these avenues would be a waste of a timeskip.

It's possible they have ideas for post-Z stories, but I'm apprehensive. The Broly movie was great, and I've enjoyed most of the manga, but the Moro arc was really, really bad, and it's pretty much completely soured me on the manga continuing Dragon Ball on its own. I hope it's just a bump in the road, but I can't help but feel this is the beginning of the manga continuing to do "new" storylines that are all derivative, no-stakes drivel.

[precita]

Will they redo GT arcs and make them even worse? Or will they try to do "Original" stories, while desperately clinging to a static status quo just like we've had for the past few years of Super, which is essentially things GT did right, and doing them wrong? Certainly, either of these avenues would be a waste of a timeskip.

They're not likely to skip ahead to GT's time, but stick with EOZ time where Pan is a 3 year old instead of 8. We've never had stories in this era so it will be all new.

I don't see any characters from GT being reinvented at all. Baby doesn't make sense as there are no Tuffles, Super 17 will obviously never happen now, and the Dragons from the last arc being reinvented is the only possibility but even then it'd probably be completely different. Super Saiyan 4 is also jettisoned to videogames and non-canon specials.

What we will hopefully see is a Toriyama inspired and canon route for Oob and Pan, something we never got after the last manga chapter or last 3 eps of DBZ.

[SupremeKai25]

I think it's inevitable that someone else will become MC soon -OR- there will be a massive "power reset", like Goku losing Ultra Instinct or God ki entirely.

The next arc will most likely have a villain/sparring partner who is Angel-level. Then what? Where will the story go after that? There isn't a level above Angel level. It will be necessary to reset the power creep.

Or come up with a new set of Gods above Zeno that no one had any clue existed, but that will be a terrible asspull.

There's no other way. Moro is very low-Angel tier, the next villain will be high-Angel tier because this show's power creep is stupid, and then there will be no room left for even more powerful villains.

[Xeogran]

I don't see any characters from GT being reinvented at all.

All things considered, Lord Luud was already reinvented as Mosco the U3 GoD

[Matches Malone]

Will they redo GT arcs and make them even worse?

With Broly getting remade, nothing's off the table. I definitely think Cooler will be the next story to get rebooted into Super's continuity. I've been a very vocal defender of GT lately, but there's no denying that its stories had far more potential than GT was capable of. Personally, I'd rather them stick to original stories, but I have no doubt Super would give us better versions of GT's stories if it decided to reboot them.