Half-Saiyan, half-Earthling hybrid

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:05 pm

I was just wondering if is it every mention besides episode four of DBZ or chapter 204 of the manga that a half-Saiyan, half-Earthling hybrid is stronger than a regular Saiyan, and if it is true.

Zuhalter2000 · Post by **Zuhalter2000** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:33 pm

Based on Goten and Trunks powers as just childern, I believe that they could easily pass up where Goku and Vegeata are at that age. They are 6 and 7 and super sayians. Imagine their power if they continued to train for 20 more years.

USSJed · Post by **USSJed** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:56 pm

Everyone repeated says that Gohan is much stronger than Goku or has more potential or whatever all throughout the series.

And yeah, if Goten and Trunks were less lazy they would put their fathers to shame in terms of strength

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:53 pm

The real question on this topic is more why, actually, because the series is more than happy to tell us how earthlings have no important power to contribute going on.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri May 02, 2008 12:54 am

Well, it seems to me that while humans are generally weak creatures and don't have inate use of ki, having to work hard to get anywhere, they've got a leg up on the rest of the races in other places. They seem to be able to grasp the fundamentals of ki better, and more intuitively at that. Ki sensing and supression seemed to be completely natural to them. Which, if you look at the real world, makes sense especially for ki sensing (that whole 'someones watching me' feeling can people get).

So while humans aren't strong to start with, and they have to work very hard to get stronger, they're simple better at using ki than others. The use of it comes more easily, their potential abilitiy with it is quite high, and so on. Mix this inate compatability with ki with the Saiya-jins incredible strength and you have a super solider. Naturally power and naturally attuned to that powers use.

The way I see it, all the humans in the DB world can use their ki to some, minor, degree. You need the intense training to do it willfully, but on a subconcious level all humans can use it. Adreneline induced strength boosts, the 'someone's behind me' sensation, and so on.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Thu May 15, 2008 11:46 pm

Also, college biology taught me that hybrids are naturally stronger than their parent species.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:00 am

There really is no logic to it, when a donkey and horse procreate, they make a mule. A mule isn't physically more able to perform tasks than a horse.

When we meet Vegeta in Volume 17 (DBZ 1), I remember him making an observation about Gohan based on Raditz's data that was sent to him and Nappa. Vegeta says something about how mixing genes apparently makes a "super" warrior. This doesn't make any sense however considering that human physical abilities neither mimick nor transcend Saiyan abilities.

Also, college biology taught me that hybrids are naturally stronger than their parent species.

What they mean by that is that the hybirds will have traits that their individual parent's species don't have. This however doesn't mean that the hybrid will have the potential to be better then their parent who has shared traits with them. If Dragon Ball did follow these rules, then this is what most likely would happen:

Considering that Humans are known more for their intellect and not their fighting ability, a successful hybrid may be a very good strategic fighter, and they may be physically stronger than a human, but that mean that they would be physically stronger then a Saiyan. Based on the real-life hybrid rules, only one out of four should have the potential to be as strong as or stronger than the Saiyan parent.

... That is of course...if you consider "fighting potential" and "intellect" genetic traits. In real life, these aren't considered genetic traits. Fighting potential has the potential to be called genetic, but it's just like a bodybuilder. If a bodybuilder has a baby, the baby doesn't come out with big muscles.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:39 am

... That is of course...if you consider "fighting potential" and "intellect" genetic traits. In real life, these aren't considered genetic traits. Fighting potential has the potential to be called genetic, but it's just like a bodybuilder. If a bodybuilder has a baby, the baby doesn't come out with big muscles.

Well, we already know that in Dragonball power is genetic. Going with that it's not that farfetched to assume that human DNA augments Saiya-jin and Saiya-jin augments human in such a way as to draw out all the latent potential of both races.

Ex-Dubbie369 · Post by **Ex-Dubbie369** » Sat May 17, 2008 2:01 pm

I believe it can come from the emotional side. A large amount of a Saiya-jin's power comes from getting royally pissed off, but Saiya-jin are relatively calm and sometimes heartless. Humans are more apt to be emotional and get angry more quickly and for more trivial reasons. Gohan shows the best example of this when getting angry in general.

Vegeta Jr · Post by **Vegeta Jr** » Sat May 17, 2008 2:13 pm

Can't mules kick in all directions? Whereas the parents can only kick backwards.

saiyanprincess · Post by **saiyanprincess** » Sat May 17, 2008 5:48 pm

I think Goku and Vegeta are naturally stronger - being full blooded.

Goten and Trunks both seem to lose their power once they grow up, they were extremely strong during their 'chibi' years when they constantly trained and strived to fight.
Actually...Lose power seems the wrong word... They just seem to lose their instinct to want to fight. (Rather opting for dating and skipping work).

I wonder if the reason they were able to reach Super Saiyan level at such a young age, was due to their fathers both already able to transform whilst they were conceived?

Although Gohan did transform early on, and to pound this idea into the ground... he did have a huge powerlevel (much higher than his uncle Radditz) Ickle Gohan couldn't see this, and was completely oblivious to the power within him.
He was only able to tap into this, after Piccolo took him under his wing and trained him in the wilderness.

Perhaps your right, Demi Saiyans (half-Saiyan half-human) MIGHT just be stronger than the pure bred Saiyans!

I guess it depends what saga you look at them. Saiyans do grow stronger with every battle.

Vegeta Jr · Post by **Vegeta Jr** » Sat May 17, 2008 5:53 pm

saiyanprincess wrote:I think Goku and Vegeta are naturally stronger - being full blooded.

Goten and Trunks both seem to lose their power once they grow up, they were extremely strong during their 'chibi' years when they constantly trained and strived to fight.
Actually...Lose power seems the wrong word... They just seem to lose their instinct to want to fight. (Rather opting for dating and skipping work).

I wonder if the reason they were able to reach Super Saiyan level at such a young age, was due to their fathers both already able to transform whilst they were conceived?

Although Gohan did transform early on, and to pound this idea into the ground... he did have a huge powerlevel (much higher than his uncle Radditz) Ickle Gohan couldn't see this, and was completely oblivious to the power within him.
He was only able to tap into this, after Piccolo took him under his wing and trained him in the wilderness.

Perhaps your right, Demi Saiyans (half-Saiyan half-human) MIGHT just be stronger than the pure bred Saiyans!

I guess it depends what saga you look at them. Saiyans do grow stronger with every battle.

Except Vegeta wasn't a Super Saiyan when Trunks was concieved, or at least there is no evidence whatsoever that he was.

They grew lazy, has nothing to do with their initial power levels.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat May 17, 2008 9:56 pm

An interesting note was brought up, there... Gohan, Goten and Trunks all slack off on their training after their respective super bossfights. They don't have the motivation to fight the way Goku and Vegeta do, even if they gain power much faster (or at least, can jump around a lot...).
So it seems to come down to the body of a saiyan, but the mind of a human...... at least with regards to the basics.

ulisa · Post by **ulisa** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:14 am

If we're talking about potential, then I'd say a mix of any race probably has an advantage to some that is a pure blood. Taking the Saiyan-Human mix into question, Vegeta mentions in the manga, at least according to the translations I have, that
"It seems that mixing Saiyan and earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid."

As to where the power comes from, that is probably due to the mixing of various traits and probably varies from person to person. Trunks seems to have inherited Bulma's intelligence and Vegeta's strength. His stubborness...well, that could come from either side or possibly a mix of both.

Gohan seems to have inherited Goku's strength, his heart but got his temper from ChiChi.

Goten and Bra seem to both take over after mainly one parent.

The mixture with a human seems to me to be a pretty important point too, even though humans didn't get much limelight later in the series. Most anime, not just Dragonball, seem to refer to human beings as being selfish, self centered but also a creature of intense determination and adaption. Humans are usually presented as being the "trump card" in fantasy. If you have a human on your side, you have cause to bring your enemy alarm.

So, it seems to reason that half breed mixes would have different traits from both sides: stubbornness, power, emotion, etc. I personally think a half breed is born with the potential of power, depending on the traits of the parents. So...overall, half breeds have the potential to be more powerful but what they achieve probably depends on how they deal with it.

This could also bring into account another problem: how exactly does a half breed fit in and adjust in the Dragonball world. Gohan seems to suffer from this more than the others. He seems to enjoy training when it's with his father and Piccolo but not so much the fighting in a battle. he seems to enjoy exploration and learning but not to the extent that ChiChi would like.

That might be a key to how the half breeds seem to fall out of training, to some degree (if you take GT into account, Gohan, Trunks and Goten were still quite capable of fighting) they seem to be stuck in between both worlds...not Saiyan to the same extent as their fathers so not quite fitting in there but also not fully human like their mothers and not quite fitting in completely there. I personally feel sorry for the mixed breeds, although they are my favorite characters...that must suck, having one foot in two different worlds so to speak but not fitting into either one entirely.

Ulisa

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Thu May 22, 2008 7:09 pm

andrew wrote:I was just wondering if is it every mention besides episode four of DBZ or chapter 204 of the manga that a half-Saiyan, half-Earthling hybrid is stronger than a regular Saiyan, and if it is true.

No, I don't believe that it is ever mentioned again but it is proven on several occasions, most of which are listed above.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri May 23, 2008 8:40 pm

Look at it this way- at the age that Gohan became a SSJ (heck, SSJ2), Goku was mastering the Kamehameha. Goku was strong, and his life from DB on was near constant training and combat. He fights the most powerful foes in the series and trains from the most masters. Yet his son achieves SSJ a handful of years after he does, and SSJ2 BEFORE him. And Goten achieves SSJ at an age younger than we ever even see Goku at.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:57 am

Onikage725 wrote:Look at it this way- at the age that Gohan became a SSJ (heck, SSJ2), Goku was mastering the Kamehameha.

Not quite. Goku was 12 when he learned the Kamehameha. Gohan was 9 when he became a SSj2.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat May 24, 2008 5:57 pm

Oh yeah, you're right. I guess I've been playing too many video games with "Teen" and "Adult" Gohan.

That just further emphasizes my point though.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Thu May 29, 2008 6:09 pm

There's no evidence that Super Saiyan is a universal genetic trait for the fact that Bra most likely isn't a Super Saiyan in the manga series when we do actually see her, and she was concieved way after Vegeta had ascended. Toriayma stated in the Daizenshuu that Pan's heritage was too diluted in order for her to become a Super Saiyan... however, Toriyama seemed to have forgotten about Bra, who is a hybrid just like Gohan, Goten and Trunks.

The only way it can work is if the Super Saiyan trait is on the Y chromesome. But that doesn't make any sense, because you don't automatically get different genes when you ascend. Genetics don't work that way. Unless of course Goten and Trunks were conceived when Goku and Vegeta were in Super Saiyan form, because their physical bodies would then be altered from their original form. If Toriyama would state just that, it would make all the difference and end the confusion.

FindKenshi · Post by **FindKenshi** » Thu May 29, 2008 7:06 pm

My own personal take on the human being / Saiyan hybrid having greater potential than a pure breed is this:

Although physically humans don't have much power, emotionally/spirtually they are superior to other races. They have a greater capacity for love and fear and other such things. Although this may seem insignificant, it may bring out something spirtually in Saiyan Blood.

Look at Gohan. At first his power is available only when he's under extreem emtional duress. It's not until his power us unlocked supernaturally that he can just access it at will.

Although Goten and Trunks do not seem to have emotionally unlocked power, it may just be the "fighting spirit" of the human soul in their hearts.

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:Toriayma stated in the Daizenshuu that Pan's heritage was too diluted in order for her to become a Super Saiyan...

Are you quite certain of that? Please don't take offense if I'm wrong (I've been out of the loop for quite some time), but my own personal memory tells me this statement comes from the GT Perfect Files, which Bird Studio/Toriyama had almost no influence over?

Kanzenshuu

Half-Saiyan, half-Earthling hybrid

Half-Saiyan, half-Earthling hybrid

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