Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

It's pretty obvious that Moro is stronger than Broly

Broly isn't gonna be attached at the hip of Beerus forever. That "probably stronger" line leaves a smidge of ambiguity allowing them to move Beerus up a level later on if need be. A simple "you're stronger than a I thought" and it's over

It'll be interesting to see how Toei handles this (if the anime ever comes back). Unlike the manga, the anime hyped up UI to crazy levels with statements such as "it's a realm of power the Hakaishin can't reach". Ditto for Jiren

Or all the Gods being freaked out just by the mere sight of Omen in ep. 110. The power-scaling in the Moro arc will definitely be different.

Oh for sure

Wouldn't surprise me if they hype up Moro as the strongest while he's old and frail and thus throwing the entire scale out of whack. If that happens, you're gonna start seeing people argue that SSB Goku is stronger than Broly

It's classic Dragon Ball really.

Base form Frieza was stronger than Saiyan arc Vegeta.
Android 19 and 20 were stronger than Final Form Frieza.
Dabura was probably stronger or on the level of Perfect Cell.
And so on...

Super has actually been a little more grounded on the power creep, because for example the gap between Hit and Goku Black isn't AS massive as the one between, say, the Androids and Namek arc Frieza.

[DBZ Macky]

I disagree it was implied Beerus is stronger. He decided to lend a hand, he already knew the gem on his forehead was the weakspot. What I take from that scene is that Beerus is incredibly smart and has a great eye for spotting weaknesses. He never said he'd do it on his own or anything like that. Which is what people were saying BEFORE (and after, for some unexplained reason) the chapter was even released.

This is how I feel as well. Moro was already going crazy at that point and had his hands (literally) full with Goku, while Vegeta wasn't even strong enough to defeat 73-Moro. Even if Beerus is weaker than MUI Goku by arbitrary powerscaling, he's still on the same playing field and nothing was stopping him from Hakai-ing Moro or target his weak spot.

[Miracles]

For the sake of story accuracy, lets point out the facts. Beerus was already set as Goku/Vegeta's goal at the start of the series. This future plot was reinforced again just before the Universe 6 arc where Vegeta stated he would surpass lord Beerus before Goku. The narrative again, reminds us through the oracle fish, how Goku and Vegeta "will"become formidable "rivals" for Beerus. This was shortly before the Tournament of Power arc.

The story's position is clear on Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are trying to catch him, It's not the other way around, where Beerus has to catch Goku/Vegeta. The story's intrigue on Beerus has yet to change from "Goku and vegeta will become" rivals to Goku/Vegeta has become Beerus rivals. That is in complete contradiction to the story. The story still has Beerus stronger until otherwise shown/stated.

[FishermanJohnWest]

We will see in the future

Honestly DBS is that series to where trying to argue who is stronger then who is just becoming a waste of time

Sounds like you’re starting to doubt your beliefs now all of a sudden?? Based on what? No evidence currently suggests that UI Goku, Moro Merus, and Merus are >>>>>>>> Broly, Blue Fusions or Beerus.

Not doubting anything, Goku won't surpass Beerus until the rematch and Broly is at the level the movie said he is, no ifs or buts about this. But honestly I just don't care anymore, since Super seems to want Beerus > anyone that isn't fan service

[GodVegetto91]

We will see in the future

Honestly DBS is that series to where trying to argue who is stronger then who is just becoming a waste of time

Sounds like you’re starting to doubt your beliefs now all of a sudden?? Based on what? No evidence currently suggests that UI Goku, Moro Merus, and Merus are >>>>>>>> Broly, Blue Fusions or Beerus.

Not doubting anything, Goku won't surpass Beerus until the rematch and Broly is at the level the movie said he is, no ifs or buts about this. But honestly I just don't care anymore, since Super seems to want Beerus > anyone that isn't fan service

I actually have no problem with that, as long as they keep hyping and respecting the characters they wish to hype. So there’s some consistency right there. Part of the reason I’m almost never dissapointed is because I align myself with the writers intent (or try to at least) which is why as a Goku and Vegeta fan, I’m rarely dissapointed, while Gohan and Piccolo fans almost always are! It’s time for fans to “go with the flow” I would say, unless they intend on being dissapointed again.

[BagetaSama]

If Beerus > Goku > 7-3 Moro > Jiren > Belmod, which I admit the latest chapter implies...it means that Beerus is at the level where if Belmod punched Beerus, he'd break his arm even trying, which is pretty hilarious. Who would have guessed that when watching the GoD battle royale where Belmod restrained every GoD at the same time?

I really hope the conversation around the manga doesn't get into two base theory levels of silliness with trying to explain this. I fear Toyo may have been too inconsistent with power here.

How does the latest chapter imply that?

[Jack Bz]

If Beerus > Goku > 7-3 Moro > Jiren > Belmod, which I admit the latest chapter implies...it means that Beerus is at the level where if Belmod punched Beerus, he'd break his arm even trying, which is pretty hilarious. Who would have guessed that when watching the GoD battle royale where Belmod restrained every GoD at the same time?

I really hope the conversation around the manga doesn't get into two base theory levels of silliness with trying to explain this. I fear Toyo may have been too inconsistent with power here.

How does the latest chapter imply that?

It's nothing definitive, which is why I used the word implied (but maybe that's the wrong choice?), but the scene can certainly be read that Beerus is completely confident in his ability to quickly dispatch of a foe who gave UI Goku immense trouble, and is therefore stronger than them. Sure, he could just know about the gem weakness and not be on their level, but Goku knowing about the weakness didn't make it easy for him at all.

The fact that they tease Beerus's involvement in the first place only to take it away sort of makes me feel like like it's a even more of a direct implementation of the powerful bystander trope. My mind's not made up at this point.

[Miracles]

Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P13.5-6, P14.1-3
Context: After Goku checks out perfect Cell's power
Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P11.1-7
Goku: “But how am I compared to Cell?!”
Karin: “Hmm… You always ask the most difficult questions… As I said, this is only speculation…but honestly…I’m afraid Cell is still a bit stronger.”
Yajirobe: “This Cell guy must be a terrible bastard!...”
Goku: “I thought so. I guessed right! Thanks, Master Karin!”

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P2.7
Context: after fighting Cell awhile
Goku: “Seems he’s stronger than I imagined…If I let my guard down just a little bit, I’ll be done in instantly...”

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

Just an example of the word "probably" being used by Toriyama in power comparison. It is nothing more than a guess word. Proof is that Goku thought Cell was only a "bit stronger." Claiming he "GUESSED right." However, we know he was way off cause Cell held back against Goku and used his full power against Gohan.

Another example:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4
Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo
Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”
Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...”
Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Again, Goku using "probably" as a guess word doesn't mean fact but just that a theory. Goku's assumption of Dabura was proven wrong here. And it isn't a contradiction since Goku used the word "probably."

It's the same thing with Broly and all the rest compared to Beerus with guess words. It does not factually mean they are on his level or stronger. So don't get frustrated at the story when Beerus is revealed to be above and beyond what you are all claiming. This is already done away with Since Moro at his current strength, no one is as tough as him!

[FishermanJohnWest]

Nope, pay more attention to the quote Superstar

The Cell statements is where Goku was right lol he said he probably can't win and was correct about it cause based on what Cell had shown and what Goku had shown to Korin, Cell was stronger AS GOKU says. And he hasn't seen Cell FP unlike Beerus who doesn't share that luxury cause he has seen him go all out. Same problem as the Dabura statement, he didn't know what Dabura was hiding, yet he knows what Beerus is hiding.

These arguments are poor superstar, try better.

[Nevaeh]

If Beerus > Goku > 7-3 Moro > Jiren > Belmod, which I admit the latest chapter implies...it means that Beerus is at the level where if Belmod punched Beerus, he'd break his arm even trying, which is pretty hilarious. Who would have guessed that when watching the GoD battle royale where Belmod restrained every GoD at the same time?

I really hope the conversation around the manga doesn't get into two base theory levels of silliness with trying to explain this. I fear Toyo may have been too inconsistent with power here.

At least now we know Beerus being a moving goal post isn't an anime only thing

I won't put this all on Toyo though. Toriyama approves everything that goes into the manga so he was okay with Toyo showing Beerus going all out and struggling. The current manga scale being out of whack is on him as well

[SupremeKai25]

If Beerus > Goku > 7-3 Moro > Jiren > Belmod, which I admit the latest chapter implies...it means that Beerus is at the level where if Belmod punched Beerus, he'd break his arm even trying, which is pretty hilarious. Who would have guessed that when watching the GoD battle royale where Belmod restrained every GoD at the same time?

I really hope the conversation around the manga doesn't get into two base theory levels of silliness with trying to explain this. I fear Toyo may have been too inconsistent with power here.

At least now we know Beerus being a moving goal post isn't an anime only thing

I won't put this all on Toyo though. Toriyama approves everything that goes into the manga so he was okay with Toyo showing Beerus going all out and struggling. The current manga scale being out of whack is on him as well

How was he a moving goal post in the anime? I mean, Whis straight up says that Jiren is likely stronger than Beerus, and Whis isn't the type of person who misreads power levels. Beerus was already surpassed in the ToP arc, this is a retcon.

[Hugo Boss]

If we follow the manga, the anime, the movie and supplementary material about god level antagonists at their best, I could depict their rank as something like this:

Moro > Jiren~Broly > Beerus~Zamas > Hit > Freeza

Though, as some people have already pointed out, I also hadn’t made up my mind on where Beerus stands, given how much ambiguity exists when his strength is concerned and how the story presents his relationship with Goku and Vegeta.

[ankokudaishogun]

How was he a moving goal post in the anime? I mean, Whis straight up says that Jiren is likely stronger than Beerus, and Whis isn't the type of person who misreads power levels. Beerus was already surpassed in the ToP arc, this is a retcon.

that's not exactly precise.

Whis says there is a rumor(which he himself later would take as truth) of a Mortal Stronger than a GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus.

so, not exactly straight.
Technically, there is still room for the RUMOR being imprecise and referring to Quitela and not Belmod, though it's not very likely
(it's quite obvious it was narratively supposed to refer to Belmod, else it would have been commented upon)

There IS wiggle room, but if we take everything at face value, in the anime Jiren is stronger than Belmod who is stronger than Beerus
Then Jiren powers-up like thrice

Unless Beerus did train off-screen(most likely scenario and fitting the whole "strong people who are inspired to train after fighting Goku" recurring in Super), in the anime Beerus has been left in the dust

[SupremeKai25]

How was he a moving goal post in the anime? I mean, Whis straight up says that Jiren is likely stronger than Beerus, and Whis isn't the type of person who misreads power levels. Beerus was already surpassed in the ToP arc, this is a retcon.

that's not exactly precise.

Whis says there is a rumor(which he himself later would take as truth) of a Mortal Stronger than a GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus.

so, not exactly straight.
Technically, there is still room for the RUMOR being imprecise and referring to Quitela and not Belmod, though it's not very likely
(it's quite obvious it was narratively supposed to refer to Belmod, else it would have been commented upon)

There IS wiggle room, but if we take everything at face value, in the anime Jiren is stronger than Belmod who is stronger than Beerus
Then Jiren powers-up like thrice

Unless Beerus did train off-screen(most likely scenario and fitting the whole "strong people who are inspired to train after fighting Goku" recurring in Super), in the anime Beerus has been left in the dust

Let's start from the basis that Belmod is factually weaker than Jiren, because he is calm/relaxed/happy when people say that Jiren is above him, he never tries to prove these rumors wrong. Beerus lost to Belmod in an arm wrestling match, which means that physically he's weaker than Belmod. Whis uses basic scaling and concludes that Jiren is likely stronger than Beerus, and we're not even talking about ep. 130 "limit unleashed" Jiren (or whatever the hell that thing is called). SUPPRESSED Jiren charging his aura in ep. 109 terrifies Beerus and makes him sweat, Beerus is visibly worried when Goku goes Omen vs. Kefla, Beerus literally cries tears of joy when he sees Mui, etc.

Writers don't do things randomly, all of the above moments are not coincidence.

Oh it's quite fine if the writers retconned Beerus' power, that's not even the worst retcon in Dragon Ball, but let's not act like it was all planned.

[wolflonnie]

How high would you guys rank all the Z-Warriors (Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Roshi) from the Moro arc?

[Thani]

How was he a moving goal post in the anime? I mean, Whis straight up says that Jiren is likely stronger than Beerus, and Whis isn't the type of person who misreads power levels. Beerus was already surpassed in the ToP arc, this is a retcon.

that's not exactly precise.

Whis says there is a rumor(which he himself later would take as truth) of a Mortal Stronger than a GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus.

so, not exactly straight.
Technically, there is still room for the RUMOR being imprecise and referring to Quitela and not Belmod, though it's not very likely
(it's quite obvious it was narratively supposed to refer to Belmod, else it would have been commented upon)

There IS wiggle room, but if we take everything at face value, in the anime Jiren is stronger than Belmod who is stronger than Beerus
Then Jiren powers-up like thrice

Unless Beerus did train off-screen(most likely scenario and fitting the whole "strong people who are inspired to train after fighting Goku" recurring in Super), in the anime Beerus has been left in the dust

Let's start from the basis that Belmod is factually weaker than Jiren, because he is calm/relaxed/happy when people say that Jiren is above him, he never tries to prove these rumors wrong. Beerus lost to Belmod in an arm wrestling match, which means that physically he's weaker than Belmod. Whis uses basic scaling and concludes that Jiren is likely stronger than Beerus, and we're not even talking about ep. 130 "limit unleashed" Jiren (or whatever the hell that thing is called). SUPPRESSED Jiren charging his aura in ep. 109 terrifies Beerus and makes him sweat, Beerus is visibly worried when Goku goes Omen vs. Kefla, Beerus literally cries tears of joy when he sees Mui, etc.

Writers don't do things randomly, all of the above moments are not coincidence.

Oh it's quite fine if the writers retconned Beerus' power, that's not even the worst retcon in Dragon Ball, but let's not act like it was all planned.

Just want to remind that the rumour is that "in one of the universes lives a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat". Whis' statement that said GoD is stronger than Beerus was not part of the rumour itself. To me, this means both Whis and Beerus knows which universe the rumour is talking about. In the anime, from the get go, they know that if said mortal exists, he lives in Belmod's and Kai's Universe 11.

Honestly, if they're going to retcon the power ceiling, then it would be mighty easier to just say that Jiren was just U11's strongest fighter and no mention to how he compares to Gods of Destruction. Hell, it wouldn't even be a problem, since he would still be mighty impressive by just being that strong despite still inferior to the gods.

[Koitsukai]

How high would you guys rank all the Z-Warriors (Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Roshi) from the Moro arc?

Chaozu: probably as strong(or weak) as he always was. We never learned if he got stronger after training with Kaiosama, so he might be the same as he was vs Nappa.

Yamcha: He said he was the 3rd strongest on Earth (Behind Tenshinhan and Krilin). He was retired so whatever level he reached in Z is gone, and after 2 months I guess he should be somewhere close to his Cell Games version, when he was still an active martial artist.

Roshi: Yamcha claimed he was stronger than him, which he's been since BoZ. His bootleg UI helps him fight characters that are out of his league, so probably is as strong as he was in DB but with this technique he can stand up to nowadays henchmen, almost closing the gap between him and his former students.

Krilin: The only non-racist cop in the world at his best was somewhere close to one of Freeza's initial forms. A highball would be placing him at 3rd form Freeza. He shouldn't be above that.

Tenshinhan: Nothing remarkable from him since holding off Cell. I don't think he can be much higher than that. And he wasn't even there to begin with, it was his super attack. I think he must be, like Krilin, around the highest supressed Freeza forms.

18: She hasn't been training like her brother, but should be stronger than her Z self. Going from her Z level to android 16's would be a considerable boost, maybe she is around Cell's 2nd form. I doubt she and Perfect Cell are even.

17: SS3 at the very least. At the ToP he was implied to be even with Dyspo (above SS2), then he wiped the floor with 7-3 (Moro) but had nothing to do vs Saganbo. 7-3 should've been using the techniques of a post-Namek Moro, so 17 might've beaten a character using above SSG level techniques.

Piccolo: Oh, the mess. He was seen vs Frost putting up a more than decent fight, that is close to SS Goku. His fight vs Saganbo is the only thing he has going on for him. It's difficult to assess because the fight was off-screen, we only saw him outlasting the androids (there are many ways to do that and not all of them include being stronger). He is a great wingman for Gohan, they don't "improvise", they have special strategies, so vs Saganbo it could be perfectly possible that they were just doing great teamwork. I doubt one can go from SS to SSB just like that. I'd put him around 17, in the mist between god and blue.

Gohan: He stalemated Kefla(off-screen, again) who should be Perfect Blue level, so I'd say Gohan by now is above ToP Perfect Blue. If I were to guess, I'd put him at the level of Blue Kaioken.

[ankokudaishogun]

Beerus lost to Belmod in an arm wrestling match,

Beerus lost to QUITELA in arm-wrestling, and only in the manga.
This is an important difference! Especially in the narrative as in the manga Beerus specifies it was just arm-wrestling, but he doesn't makes any excuse for himself in the anime

but yeah, narratively the anime was going for Jiren>Belmod>Beerus

[SupremeKai25]

Beerus lost to Belmod in an arm wrestling match,

Beerus lost to QUITELA in arm-wrestling, and only in the manga.
This is an important difference! Especially in the narrative as in the manga Beerus specifies it was just arm-wrestling, but he doesn't makes any excuse for himself in the anime

but yeah, narratively the anime was going for Jiren>Belmod>Beerus

Hm? In the anime, Whis says that there is a mortal who even a God of Destruction cannot defeat (Jiren). As Jiren is from U11, that Destroyer who can't defeat him is Belmod (as shown later on in the arc): Whis then says that that Destroyer (Belmod) is even stronger than Beerus, to which Beerus replies that he only lost at an arm-wrestling match. So in the anime Beerus and Belmod actually had an arm-wrestling match and Beerus lost to that clown. He makes that excuse in the anime too:



Granted, Whis doesn't actually mention Belmod by name, but the context of the conversation makes it obvious.

[Koitsukai]

Also, seeing that Quitela's universe in both media produced 0 warriors not only stronger than him, but strong in the context of the ToP , him being the GoD mentioned by Whis in the anime loses weight fast. The anime has both rumors blended in together (ningen > GoD and that GoD > Beerus)

In the manga the rumors are separated, Quitela tells Beerus he has already defeated him, and Toppo mentions that Vermoud can't even take Jiren. Whis only says there might be fighters not even GoDs and kais might know about.