Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

For the sake of story accuracy, lets point out the facts. Beerus was already set as Goku/Vegeta's goal at the start of the series. This future plot was reinforced again just before the Universe 6 arc where Vegeta stated he would surpass lord Beerus before Goku. The narrative again, reminds us through the oracle fish, how Goku and Vegeta "will"become formidable "rivals" for Beerus. This was shortly before the Tournament of Power arc.

The story's position is clear on Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are trying to catch him, It's not the other way around, where Beerus has to catch Goku/Vegeta. The story's intrigue on Beerus has yet to change from "Goku and vegeta will become" rivals to Goku/Vegeta has become Beerus rivals. That is in complete contradiction to the story. The story still has Beerus stronger until otherwise shown/stated.

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

But UI Goku is stronger than Jiren who's stronger than Belmond. Is Beerus supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Belmond?

[Thani]

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

But UI Goku is stronger than Jiren who's stronger than Belmond. Is Beerus supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Belmond?

The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is absolutely an exaggeration, but........ Yeah. That's what Toyotaro is (intentionally or not) implying.

[Miracles]

For the sake of story accuracy, lets point out the facts. Beerus was already set as Goku/Vegeta's goal at the start of the series. This future plot was reinforced again just before the Universe 6 arc where Vegeta stated he would surpass lord Beerus before Goku. The narrative again, reminds us through the oracle fish, how Goku and Vegeta "will"become formidable "rivals" for Beerus. This was shortly before the Tournament of Power arc.

The story's position is clear on Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are trying to catch him, It's not the other way around, where Beerus has to catch Goku/Vegeta. The story's intrigue on Beerus has yet to change from "Goku and vegeta will become" rivals to Goku/Vegeta has become Beerus rivals. That is in complete contradiction to the story. The story still has Beerus stronger until otherwise shown/stated.

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

Truth is, Only Quitela was unequivocally; directly compared to Beerus. Broly and FT Vegetto had guess words that are subject to change. Their contrasts were not stated as facts, having no grounds of true comparison.

Therefore, falsely claiming Broly and FT Vegetto are stronger than Moro, Merus and UI Goku goes against canon. Moro was just stated to be the toughest opponent for Goku to face without training his "strength". I know people want to dance around the fact that the word tough was used instead of strong. While purposely ignoring the context of tough describing Moro's UNTRAINED strength. Believing Moro to be weaker than Broly also goes against Toriyama's outright statement of the next enemy > last formula as well.

I understand where the confusion comes from, people wrongly read that Vegetto and Broly's assumed comparison [maybe/probably] to Beerus [the benchmark] was FACTUAL, when in reality it was not. So they wrongly assume FT Vegetto and Broly are being carried along with Beerus. All the while contradicting Toriyama's story formula and Moro's recent strongest title.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Worth keeping in mind that, unlike the Anime, Kaioshin already knew Beerus prior to the events of Battle of Gods, so "Oh but Kaioshin doesn't know how strong Beerus is" isn't valid. Vegetto Blue is totally meant to be a rival to Beerus period - The only reason Quitela can be said to be stronger no ifs or buts is because he actually defeated him, while Vegetto has never even met the guy. Goku's knowledge of Beerus' power when comparing him to Broly can be questionable though, and it certainly is in the anime version.

I don't think Toriyama has ever come out saying the new villian is always stronger than the last, even if it is a foregone conclusion.

[GodVegetto91]

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

But UI Goku is stronger than Jiren who's stronger than Belmond. Is Beerus supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Belmond?

Yes...

[GodVegetto91]

For the sake of story accuracy, lets point out the facts. Beerus was already set as Goku/Vegeta's goal at the start of the series. This future plot was reinforced again just before the Universe 6 arc where Vegeta stated he would surpass lord Beerus before Goku. The narrative again, reminds us through the oracle fish, how Goku and Vegeta "will"become formidable "rivals" for Beerus. This was shortly before the Tournament of Power arc.

The story's position is clear on Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are trying to catch him, It's not the other way around, where Beerus has to catch Goku/Vegeta. The story's intrigue on Beerus has yet to change from "Goku and vegeta will become" rivals to Goku/Vegeta has become Beerus rivals. That is in complete contradiction to the story. The story still has Beerus stronger until otherwise shown/stated.

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

Truth is, Only Quitela was unequivocally; directly compared to Beerus. Broly and FT Vegetto had guess words that are subject to change. Their contrasts were not stated as facts, having no grounds of true comparison.

Therefore, falsely claiming Broly and FT Vegetto are stronger than Moro, Merus and UI Goku goes against canon. Moro was just stated to be the toughest opponent for Goku to face without training his "strength". I know people want to dance around the fact that the word tough was used instead of strong. While purposely ignoring the context of tough describing Moro's UNTRAINED strength. Believing Moro to be weaker than Broly also goes against Toriyama's outright statement of the next enemy > last formula as well.

I understand where the confusion comes from, people wrongly read that Vegetto and Broly's assumed comparison [maybe/probably] to Beerus [the benchmark] was FACTUAL, when in reality it was not. So they wrongly assume FT Vegetto and Broly are being carried along with Beerus. All the while contradicting Toriyama's story formula and Moro's recent strongest title.

The fact that these characters (who ARE Blue Fusion level for certain!) have been compared in any way to Lord Beerus says enough! Because even if these statements turn out to be false, the fact that these statements regarding them exist.. says something!

No such statements exist for single UI Goku and all the beings he fought.

That SAYS something right there.

But you are assuming these to be false because you have a very strong bias towards the idea of “new enemy >>>> previous enemy”, and while I, too, share some of that bias with you, you have to understand...

This rule does NOT need to apply to Fusions..

Hence why Broly and Vegito Blue can still be stronger than UI Goku, Moro Merus, and Merus from 1 and 2 Arcs earlier!

Also, the statement saying “probably” was made IN REGARDS to the idea that Vegito and Broly are stronger than Beerus..

Meaning that it’s not certain that they are “stronger” than him.. NOT that it’s not certain that they are on his level! Because they are!

If it’s even questionable that they are “stronger” than Lord Beerus, then it is absolutely CERTAIN that they are either on his level, or at the very least CLOSE to him in power..

[Hugo Boss]

If I were to make a guess, I would say Moro could force Gogeta Blue (movie) to use his full strength, as he actually is a more difficult challenge than Broly. If he had current Vegeta’s abilities copied, it would be even more difficult, as they couldn’t let him damage them.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Honestly I see it as Gogeta Blue > Broly => Vegito = Beerus > UI Goku current

Until Goku is directly compared or stated or shown to be = to > Beerus, he ain't there

[Koitsukai]

If I were to make a guess, I would say Moro could force Gogeta Blue (movie) to use his full strength, as he actually is a more difficult challenge than Broly. If he had current Vegeta’s abilities copied, it would be even more difficult, as they couldn’t let him damage them.

Yes, I'd make the same guess. Moro is strong enough for Goku to be certain about where he stands, so he should be landing on Gogeta those blows Broly couldn't. And with Vegeta's ability though, I think he gets the job done. One blow would tilt the scale - if defusing works like retrieving stolen energy, that is-, and Moro shouldn't have problems touching Gogeta, even if he doesn't have the edge.

[BWri]

Yes, and that means that Broly and Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc are also still much stronger than current UI Goku, Moro Merus, Merus, and Jiren. Since they (Fusion level characters!) are the only ones to have been directly compared to the mighty Lord Beerus. The writers aren’t stupid you know. They know exactly what they’re doing. This is all going according to plan.

Beerus = Pre ToP Blue Fusion = SSJ Full Power Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current UI Goku.

But UI Goku is stronger than Jiren who's stronger than Belmond. Is Beerus supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Belmond?

Yes and it was setup when Beerus fought ALL the GoDs at once. It's just weird seeing how Quietela figures into all this. Being Beerus' rival, it seems he's up there with Beerus. And unless he's holding back by a lot or constantly training, Beerus also shouldn't be so much drastically stronger than Champa, but Champa was a part of the group of GoDs that attacked Beerus and wasn't one of the finalists in the exhibition. IMO there's definitely been a lot of retconning going on, but Beerus continues to be the measuring stick among the non-angels. Logically Beerus has probably been training off and on since his fight with Goku.

[shadd21]

It's been alluded by Whis in chapter #27, and later Merus in #63 that the mastery of UI makes the user insurpassable, if not unbeatable.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I'm not buying the whole Blue Fusions/Beerus > MUI Goku argument, Unless a MUI Gogeta becomes a real thing, or they reveal that Beerus has mastered UI offscreen, I don't see how they could be above current UI Goku.

[BWri]

How high would you guys rank all the Z-Warriors (Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Roshi) from the Moro arc?

These are all after the 2 months of intense training for Moro's invasion and manga only.

Gohan - I'm thinking he reached the strength of the Super Saiyan Blues from the previous arc. Not Blue Evolution, but SSB. Rage boosted might surpass SSBE Vegeta from ToP though. This is a low ball. I'm low-balling Kefla to being only marginally stronger than Kale at her peak and not Kale x Caulifla.

Piccolo - Easily above Goku's current SSJ3. He would likely defeat SSG Goku from BoG and put up a decent fight with SSB Goku from RoF though he would lose. This is a lowball. Based on some of his feats later, it could be argued that he's above #17 who I am putting at ToP bottom shelf SSB, but I think Gohan provided Piccolo enough coverage for him to reasonably survive at a lower power level vs. Moro, 7-3 and Saganbo. I just think Piccolo would have to at least be as strong as a current SSJ3 to survive, do as well as he did, and make the claims he's made against Moro.

Roshi - Proto-UI grants him a little bit of a hack, but other than that it's difficult to scale Roshi. I think he's now on the same level as the other Earthlings instead of far behind them. Yamcha still claims to be the 3rd strongest Earthling, but he never saw Roshi's performances in the ToP or against Frieza's army. All things considered, as far as pure strength goes in the manga, I think Roshi is still behind his students and Tien. His techniques just make up the difference.

Krillin - I honestly think he is the strongest human now, as much as I still believe that makes no sense. I'll just go with the premise that he trains with #18. Anime puts him on par with her, but he never gets to do much in the manga. He beats Yunba, but Yunba is difficult to scale since he only fights Krillin. Yunba was considerably boosted by Moro's magic. I think all the Earthlings are above Freeza 3 from Namek.

Tien - Did relatively well against a Metalman boosted by Moro's magic. The fact that he wasn't immediately overpowered says something. Ultimately, his opponent had an easy weakness to exploit so its difficult to place Tien.

Chiaotzu - No clue where to place him. I think all the earthlings are above Freeza 3 from Namek including Chiaotzu.

Yamcha - In terms of pure strength, I think he is 3rd strongest Earthling, but when skill and technique are included, I think Roshi is better. Above Freeza 3 and below Final Form Freeza from Namek is where I put all the Earthlings (manga) at this point. The anime has each of them significantly stronger such as Krillin being on par with #18.

#17 - He seems to have gotten stronger than he was during the ToP. He effortlessly dealt with a guy that gave Gohan some trouble even after 2 months of training and Piccolo's assistance. I'd put him at ToP SSB level. Not as strong as Goku and Vegeta from that arc, more like the lowest tier SSB you could be during the ToP. #17 does bow out of the fight with Saganbo to get some rest before Gohan and Piccolo which may imply that Piccolo is stronger, but I think #17 just had a grueling offscreen fight.

#18 - Other than Piccolo #18 seems to have made the biggest strength gains. Her and #17 are fighting at the same level it seems like. She could be equal to him or close. For her to be keeping up with his combination attacks and providing sufficient power for them both to hurt Moro even at the level that they did means she has to be reasonably close to #17;s level. Not to mention, she took the same attacks that he did. Since #17 has always had an edge in strength compared to her, I believe she is SSJ3 level, same as #17 has during the ToP.

[Triggered Vegeta]

It's been alluded by Whis in chapter #27, and later Merus in #63 that the mastery of UI makes the user insurpassable, if not unbeatable.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I'm not buying the whole Blue Fusions/Beerus > MUI Goku argument, Unless a MUI Gogeta becomes a real thing, or they reveal that Beerus has mastered UI offscreen, I don't see how they could be above current UI Goku.

I fully agree with this. People like to highball Gogeta to beyond levels of UI. He needed SSB to overcome a God level Character(Broly) Gogeta only reached and exceeded that level when he went Blue. Goku was al ready G.O.D level by the end of TOP. Current Goku would smack that version no problem. Since the fight with Broly, it's stated they have grown stronger since... And that's not including the recent training. At most both Goku and Gogeta are even, but it'd give a slight edge to Goku. I do believe Beerus has been doing some sort of training tho imo.

[BWri]

It's been alluded by Whis in chapter #27, and later Merus in #63 that the mastery of UI makes the user insurpassable, if not unbeatable.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I'm not buying the whole Blue Fusions/Beerus > MUI Goku argument, Unless a MUI Gogeta becomes a real thing, or they reveal that Beerus has mastered UI offscreen, I don't see how they could be above current UI Goku.

UI isn't unbeatable. Moro still managed to defeat Goku. Power levels will still come into play. It's possible that at equal levels, UI gives you the ultimate edge, but even so I've seen enough chinks in the armor to see that it won't be unbeatable going forward. Even after seeing UI Goku in action at full power, Beerus still confidently thinks he can defeat Moro without much effort.

[The Undying]

It's more like the description made by Whis and Merus likely still holds true, but operates under the presumption that an Ultra Instinct user's foe doesn't have any grasp over the technique themselves. It comes down to traditional strength only when both opponents are using it.

Moro wasn't even able to fight on par with UI Goku until acquiring Merus's abilities, and Beerus only said that lending a hand would end things quickly -- not that he can easily defeat Moro by himself.

[Koitsukai]

Moro couldn't put UI Goku down even when he got UI himself. He got the edge only after merging with the planet so he could use an angel's abilities, and absorbing the energy from everyone, even Goku's... and he almost gets destroyed with all that going on for him. So not even with UI he was enough to take UI Goku.

And Beerus NEVER SAID HE COULD DEFEAT MORO WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. Where is this coming from? he said he'd help a mastered UI character do it. There's nothing saying or implying Goku was gonna be benched so Beerus could solo Moro in a second. Nothing. On the contrary, it is implied he is going to team up with Goku.

Whis wasted time telling Goku how to do it (Beerus even yells at Krilin, gives directions to Goku...), Beerus could've spent all that precious time dispatching Moro quickly if he was actually able to.

Besides, why do people overlook the fact that Beerus, and Whis for that matter, were also confident(and right on the money) in Goku's abilities to finish the job??? they got a phone call and took off, leaving everything in the hands of Goku, Krilin and Jaco.

[BWri]

It's more like the description made by Whis and Merus likely still holds true, but operates under the presumption that an Ultra Instinct user's foe doesn't have any grasp over the technique themselves. It comes down to traditional strength only when both opponents are using it.

Moro wasn't even able to fight on par with UI Goku until acquiring Merus's abilities, and Beerus only said that lending a hand would end things quickly -- not that he can easily defeat Moro by himself.

I don't disagree with any of this, but Beerus seemed confident that his "lending a hand" would put an end to things in no time at all. Even with clear instructions from Whis UI Goku couldn't put an end to things. As a matter of fact, he was soundly defeated.

And Beerus NEVER SAID HE COULD DEFEAT MORO WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. Where is this coming from? he

Taking care of something quickly implies that it doesn't take much effort. But I can see why this isn't always the case. Beerus nonchalant attitude and his statement gave me the impression that it wouldn't take much effort.

[OLKv3]

Moro couldn't put UI Goku down even when he got UI himself. He got the edge only after merging with the planet so he could use an angel's abilities, and absorbing the energy from everyone, even Goku's... and he almost gets destroyed with all that going on for him. So not even with UI he was enough to take UI Goku.

And Beerus NEVER SAID HE COULD DEFEAT MORO WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. Where is this coming from? he said he'd help a mastered UI character do it. There's nothing saying or implying Goku was gonna be benched so Beerus could solo Moro in a second. Nothing. On the contrary, it is implied he is going to team up with Goku.

Whis wasted time telling Goku how to do it (Beerus even yells at Krilin, gives directions to Goku...), Beerus could've spent all that precious time dispatching Moro quickly if he was actually able to.

Besides, why do people overlook the fact that Beerus, and Whis for that matter, were also confident(and right on the money) in Goku's abilities to finish the job??? they got a phone call and took off, leaving everything in the hands of Goku, Krilin and Jaco.

Beerus said he'll wrap it up quickly, implying Moro was no threat to him

[The Undying]

I don't disagree with any of this, but Beerus seemed confident that his "lending a hand" would put an end to things in no time at all.

Yes, but those are the key words. The dialogue doesn't imply that Beerus would put an end to the fight quickly, it implies that Beerus and Goku would do so together.

If you recreate the same scenario with UI Goku vs. Planet Moro and add on a slightly weaker Goku, and both of them have knowledge of Moro's weakness, I don't doubt that Moro would have been effectively low-diffed. He was only just barely able to hold Goku back in the actual chapter.