Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

SSB Gogeta at most is like 50% stronger than Broly going by his performance. Fusion boost is nowhere near dozens of thousands of times stronger than SSB otherwise he'd one hit Broly. We don't know what kind of boost UI & Fusion give. Both are similar boosts imo. 1,000x boost is more reasonable or a bit more imo. Even if somehow Gogeta exceeds Goku, he isn't mountains of times stronger. Gogeta is high God tier just like Beerus, Broly, Goku & Moro(Merus). All of these guys should be in the same tier. Small gaps. Enough to defeat, but not enough to zero diff one another.

Headcanon.. 100% your own assumption and not grounded in objective fact. You’re taking your own personal subjective opinion and presenting it as objective fact. You can’t do such a thing. It’s highly rude.

And perhaps most importantly..

You’re forgetting what this actually means!

It means.. That Broly is simply THAT strong. It means.. That Broly’s SSJ Full Power form is ALSO thousands of times greater than his regular SSJ1 form!

Both Gogeta Blue and SSJ FP Broly are thousands of times stronger then their SSJ1 forms.

You’ve completely overlooked the idea and possibility that it simply means that Broly is just THAT strong in his most powerful form..

Nowhere in that fight did Gogeta display he could tank shots like Goku did Moro. Always evaded those attacks. If the gap was so large, Gogeta would just go right through them.

50% is acceptable 1.25x at most imo. Gogeta never showed to be significantly above Broly like SS2 Gohan vs Cell. The gap is way less than 2x otherwise Gogeta wouldn't have needed to use all those fancy mega moves on him that still failed.

The gaps don't have to be as outrageous as you put them. Also how can UI be barely 1,000x boost... But somehow Gogeta boost is thousands of times? Makes zero sense. These guys can't be world's apart.

Vegeta SSJ was over 50 x greater then Broly, Broly still caught up and won. How is fusion thousands of times? simple, Base form fusion > Blue Goku, and add 5 transformations on top of that, in comparison to UI Goku who is merely 2

[Triggered Vegeta]

Headcanon.. 100% your own assumption and not grounded in objective fact. You’re taking your own personal subjective opinion and presenting it as objective fact. You can’t do such a thing. It’s highly rude.

And perhaps most importantly..

You’re forgetting what this actually means!

It means.. That Broly is simply THAT strong. It means.. That Broly’s SSJ Full Power form is ALSO thousands of times greater than his regular SSJ1 form!

Both Gogeta Blue and SSJ FP Broly are thousands of times stronger then their SSJ1 forms.

You’ve completely overlooked the idea and possibility that it simply means that Broly is just THAT strong in his most powerful form..

Nowhere in that fight did Gogeta display he could tank shots like Goku did Moro. Always evaded those attacks. If the gap was so large, Gogeta would just go right through them.

50% is acceptable 1.25x at most imo. Gogeta never showed to be significantly above Broly like SS2 Gohan vs Cell. The gap is way less than 2x otherwise Gogeta wouldn't have needed to use all those fancy mega moves on him that still failed.

The gaps don't have to be as outrageous as you put them. Also how can UI be barely 1,000x boost... But somehow Gogeta boost is thousands of times? Makes zero sense. These guys can't be world's apart.

Vegeta SSJ was over 50 x greater then Broly, Broly still caught up and won. How is fusion thousands of times? simple, Base form fusion > Blue Goku, and add 5 transformations on top of that, in comparison to UI Goku who is merely 2

All I'm saying is Goku, Moro(Merus) & Broly are in the realm of God's of destruction or slightly higher Right? Gogeta smashed Broly yes, but it wasn't like he wasn't putting in effort. Gogeta should fall in the same tier as he himself is high God level. Those 2 levels Goku has already give enough of a boost to be equal to God's. Gogeta needs to skip 4 forms to get to that realm of power. There shouldn't be much of a gap between the two Imo.

[wolflonnie]

How high would you guys rank all the Z-Warriors (Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Roshi) from the Moro arc?

These are all after the 2 months of intense training for Moro's invasion and manga only.

Gohan - I'm thinking he reached the strength of the Super Saiyan Blues from the previous arc. Not Blue Evolution, but SSB. Rage boosted might surpass SSBE Vegeta from ToP though. This is a low ball. I'm low-balling Kefla to being only marginally stronger than Kale at her peak and not Kale x Caulifla.

Piccolo - Easily above Goku's current SSJ3. He would likely defeat SSG Goku from BoG and put up a decent fight with SSB Goku from RoF though he would lose. This is a lowball. Based on some of his feats later, it could be argued that he's above #17 who I am putting at ToP bottom shelf SSB, but I think Gohan provided Piccolo enough coverage for him to reasonably survive at a lower power level vs. Moro, 7-3 and Saganbo. I just think Piccolo would have to at least be as strong as a current SSJ3 to survive, do as well as he did, and make the claims he's made against Moro.

Roshi - Proto-UI grants him a little bit of a hack, but other than that it's difficult to scale Roshi. I think he's now on the same level as the other Earthlings instead of far behind them. Yamcha still claims to be the 3rd strongest Earthling, but he never saw Roshi's performances in the ToP or against Frieza's army. All things considered, as far as pure strength goes in the manga, I think Roshi is still behind his students and Tien. His techniques just make up the difference.

Krillin - I honestly think he is the strongest human now, as much as I still believe that makes no sense. I'll just go with the premise that he trains with #18. Anime puts him on par with her, but he never gets to do much in the manga. He beats Yunba, but Yunba is difficult to scale since he only fights Krillin. Yunba was considerably boosted by Moro's magic. I think all the Earthlings are above Freeza 3 from Namek.

Tien - Did relatively well against a Metalman boosted by Moro's magic. The fact that he wasn't immediately overpowered says something. Ultimately, his opponent had an easy weakness to exploit so its difficult to place Tien.

Chiaotzu - No clue where to place him. I think all the earthlings are above Freeza 3 from Namek including Chiaotzu.

Yamcha - In terms of pure strength, I think he is 3rd strongest Earthling, but when skill and technique are included, I think Roshi is better. Above Freeza 3 and below Final Form Freeza from Namek is where I put all the Earthlings (manga) at this point. The anime has each of them significantly stronger such as Krillin being on par with #18.

#17 - He seems to have gotten stronger than he was during the ToP. He effortlessly dealt with a guy that gave Gohan some trouble even after 2 months of training and Piccolo's assistance. I'd put him at ToP SSB level. Not as strong as Goku and Vegeta from that arc, more like the lowest tier SSB you could be during the ToP. #17 does bow out of the fight with Saganbo to get some rest before Gohan and Piccolo which may imply that Piccolo is stronger, but I think #17 just had a grueling offscreen fight.

#18 - Other than Piccolo #18 seems to have made the biggest strength gains. Her and #17 are fighting at the same level it seems like. She could be equal to him or close. For her to be keeping up with his combination attacks and providing sufficient power for them both to hurt Moro even at the level that they did means she has to be reasonably close to #17;s level. Not to mention, she took the same attacks that he did. Since #17 has always had an edge in strength compared to her, I believe she is SSJ3 level, same as #17 has during the ToP.

Great assessment. I pretty much agree with everything. It's nice to see that all the characters got stronger, albeit of course still outclassed by a lot of stuff in the grand scheme of things. Still, enough to impress Moro, which says something.
My only objection would be that the earthlings should be a little higher, based on the fact that early Moro arc Goku and Vegeta needed at least SSJ to keep up with random prisoners. The earthlings fared well against Yunba, Shimorekka etc.. I'd place them at early SSJ levels (lowball).

[Miracles]

The fact that these characters (who ARE Blue Fusion level for certain!) have been compared in any way to Lord Beerus says enough! Because even if these statements turn out to be false, the fact that these statements regarding them exist.. says something!

No such statements exist for single UI Goku and all the beings he fought.

That SAYS something right there.

But you are assuming these to be false because you have a very strong bias towards the idea of “new enemy >>>> previous enemy”, and while I, too, share some of that bias with you, you have to understand...

This rule does NOT need to apply to Fusions..

Hence why Broly and Vegito Blue can still be stronger than UI Goku, Moro Merus, and Merus from 1 and 2 Arcs earlier!

Also, the statement saying “probably” was made IN REGARDS to the idea that Vegito and Broly are stronger than Beerus..

Meaning that it’s not certain that they are “stronger” than him.. NOT that it’s not certain that they are on his level! Because they are!

If it’s even questionable that they are “stronger” than Lord Beerus, then it is absolutely CERTAIN that they are either on his level, or at the very least CLOSE to him in power..

Goku thought Cell was "probably" just "a bit" stronger than himself. Assuming he was on Cell's level with "probably" as well. Come to find out Cell would of stomped Goku with his full power. It's the same situation here, "probably's" do not put one on the level or stronger to the compared, cause the entire premise is based on guess work. The same goes for FT Vegetto's ambiguous line. Fusions don't get a pass yet. Now add the fact that Broly was already surpassed by Moro. Goku is stronger than Moro, yet has not said/shown to be even a rival to Beerus YET.

Nonsense as usual superstar, he was talking about Cell current power at that moment, and said that Cell current power was higher then his own, and he was right. He saw Beerus go all out, meaning the same judgement he is making on Cell applies similar to Broly, saw both go all out, says Broly is probably stronger.

Here is where you failed, I told you before, PROBABLY stronger means Broly is at least equal, same how Goku and Cell are fighting equally with each other. And Moro never surpassed Broly, tough isn't the same as strong

You are working overtime with all this dialogue twisting. Goku used the word "strength" too. We know it wasn't specifically regarding lifting strength. Same with the word "tough," it was all concerning Moro's overall power since he just had a fight with Moro's "current strength." This is Dragonball, Goku isn't talking specifics but battle power; ki level!

Also, Broly's "probably stronger" statement doesn't mean he is equal with Beerus cause that was not stated. That's just you assuming on a assumption. Probably is a statement contrary to fact. Just like Goku guessed with Cell, where he concluded Cell was "probably" only "a bit" stronger than him with Karin. They both guessed Cell's full power wrong. Which is why Goku used a non factual word like probably. If he knew Beerus full power he would of outright said Broly is stronger than Beerus. He didn't.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Tough isn't the same as strength, so how can the word tough relate to Moro strength when the word itself doesn't mean that -.- only person twisting stuff is you.


Goku only uses the word tough or sturdy when someone does something to match the definition

Goku called Sanganbo sturdy cause he is surviving his attacks


Goku later one says being sturdy isn't enough


Moro body becomes tougher


Whis translate tough for sturdy cause Moro body is doing the same


Tough isn't the same as power in this chapter and this arc, simple.


It actually does, cause Goku is suggesting Broly is > Beerus, not perhaps = to Beerus. He does know Beerus FP as shown in the manga, and he was right about Cell thus moot point, and Beerud doesn't share the same qualities as Cell as he shown his full power thus moot point as I mentioned before.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s important to note that Goku was right about Cell being stronger than himself, not about how much stronger Cell was. He also misjudged Dabra’s strength level, based on how he defeated Kibito. Goku and Vegeta just happened to be a lot stronger than that level either. Just a few examples, so until further notice Goku is right about Beerus, but he could be proven wrong in the future.

Anyway, this tough meaning discussion is becoming borderline ridiculous. The strength checker thread has about 30 mentions of tough (47 if you count the repeated quotes), which should help you understand how the original manga has been using this word, and Goku’s explanation to give Moro a second chance is very easily in line with what he can see in that thread.

[Koitsukai]

Guys, please check this thread out if you're going to discuss semantics. Search for tough.

[Miracles]

I was the first one to post an example of herms "strength checker" thread using "tough" interchangeably. Even Goku's wrongful speculation about Cell's strength concerning the word "probably" in context. What's mind boggling is radical fans are trying very hard to usurp the story of Dragonball. Pretending as if durability isn't part of battle power. As if Goku is not talking about Moro's fighting ability.

Tough isn't the same as strength, so how can the word tough relate to Moro strength when the word itself doesn't mean that -.- only person twisting stuff is you.


Goku only uses the word tough or sturdy when someone does something to match the definition

Goku called Sanganbo sturdy cause he is surviving his attacks


Goku later one says being sturdy isn't enough


Moro body becomes tougher


Whis translate tough for sturdy cause Moro body is doing the same


Tough isn't the same as power in this chapter and this arc, simple.


It actually does, cause Goku is suggesting Broly is > Beerus, not perhaps = to Beerus. He does know Beerus FP as shown in the manga, and he was right about Cell thus moot point, and Beerud doesn't share the same qualities as Cell as he shown his full power thus moot point as I mentioned before.

It's not a moot point. "Probably" isn't a fact. That's the point. Goku admittedly used the word "probably" as a "guess" to determine Cell's strength. But you are trying to make it seem like it's not conjecture. That's the problem. Beerus isn't truthfully placed anywhere only guessed to be. If Goku knew his power he would outright say so. Not use assumptive words like probably.

Secondly, your scans are out of context as usual. Your trying to pretend durability is separate from power. When Saganbo got up, Gohan asked, did he get stronger from before? Jaco said it was Moro boosting his power after he whacked him. So Saganbo able to take more was due to his power! Same with UI Goku, when UI is honed at this level his body automatically becomes sturdier. Again, making durability part of the battle power package.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I have something that is kinda bothering me. Ok, so Moro needs a body that can handle Merus's power.

He then goes ahead and merges with the Earth, does this mean The earth is more durable than Moro's original body?

Really confused about this. Yes I get that the Earth is a larger mass to store energy, but I have a hard time believing it could handle Moro & Merus's powers. Not sure what to think.

[SupremeKai25]

I have something that is kinda bothering me. Ok, so Moro needs a body that can handle Merus's power.

He then goes ahead and merges with the Earth, does this mean The earth is more durable than Moro's original body?

Really confused about this. Yes I get that the Earth is a larger mass to store energy, but I have a hard time believing it could handle Moro & Merus's powers. Not sure what to think.

I was thinking that too when drafts of this chapter came out.

Like, the Earth is very fragile. Saiyan arc Vegeta could casually oneshot it. How come it can handle the power of an ANGEL? Even the space it has from orbit to core shouldn't be enough to contain the sheer mass of chaotic energies that the Angels wield.

Suspension of disbelief, I guess.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I have something that is kinda bothering me. Ok, so Moro needs a body that can handle Merus's power.

He then goes ahead and merges with the Earth, does this mean The earth is more durable than Moro's original body?

Really confused about this. Yes I get that the Earth is a larger mass to store energy, but I have a hard time believing it could handle Moro & Merus's powers. Not sure what to think.

Well, I guess the main thing to bear in mind on that point is that ultimately it doesn't handle it - Chapter 66 establishes that it's just a matter of time before the power makes Moro (and Earth) explode.

If that raises the question of why Moro therefore decided to fuse with it, I think what you said about the larger mass of Earth is probably the thing - being, in that moment, basically his best shot at doing it - because otherwise he'd have to give up the power, like Goku says, and that would be pretty much against every fibre of Moro's being at this point.

[ankokudaishogun]

I stand corrected: I honestly did remember the arm-wrestling thing being only in the manga, my bad.

[Koitsukai]

I guess the Earth "working" means it depends of the size of the subject/object. I'm thinking the power builds up and it takes seconds to start to be a problem in a vessel as big as Moro's body and several minutes to do so in a vessel the size of the Earth.

[Hugo Boss]

I see it more like Moro used Earth to increase his own durability to make that power more controllable, but he only extended his time limit with it. Perhaps, a world as large as the Supreme Kai’s would be another story.

[shadd21]

How strong would a hypothetical Gogeta with MUI be?

[FishermanJohnWest]

It's not a moot point. "Probably" isn't a fact. That's the point. Goku admittedly used the word "probably" as a "guess" to determine Cell's strength. But you are trying to make it seem like it's not conjecture. That's the problem. Beerus isn't truthfully placed anywhere only guessed to be. If Goku knew his power he would outright say so. Not use assumptive words like probably.

He does know his power as shown in the manga. Goku witness Beerus at his best, he saw his movements, he saw what he is capable of doing at FP, he saw his destructive prowess against other GoDs. So their is nothing to hide unlike Goku previous enemies who Goku didn't know much about when making them statements and only was surprised when actually witnessing what they are truly capable of doing, so Goku already saw what Beerus is truly capable of, thus your examples are completely moot.

Secondly, your scans are out of context as usual. Your trying to pretend durability is separate from power. When Saganbo got up, Gohan asked, did he get stronger from before? Jaco said it was Moro boosting his power after he whacked him. So Saganbo able to take more was due to his power! Same with UI Goku, when UI is honed at this level his body automatically becomes sturdier. Again, making durability part of the battle power package.

Your Sanganbo example legit means nothing, Goku was calling that same Sanganbo who was handling Goku hits sturdy, Gohan said he was stronger then before cause Moro blasted him BEFORE The Goku fight. So your point here legit means nothing, in this cause it is separate from power, cause Moro power wise > Goku before Goku used UI but Goku body can handle UI cause it's honed but Moro body can't. So no, it's not a power thing, as Goku said

[Triggered Vegeta]

How strong would a hypothetical Gogeta with MUI be?

Gogeta with Perfected UI would be up there with the angels imo. I'd say Gogeta can put up a good fight, but defeating one is a different story.

Whis & rest of the angels : Upper S class

Gogeta(UI) : S class

[Koitsukai]

How strong would a hypothetical Gogeta with MUI be?

He would probably rival Whis. In the movie he was surpassing GoD level with only blue, right now Goku on his own has surpassed that level, so UI Gogeta would at least make Whis use more than his finger.

[GodVegetto91]

How strong would a hypothetical Gogeta with MUI be?

I would say a current hypothetical UI Vegito/Gogeta would be able to overpower Whis. I say “overpower” not “beat” because Angels are 100% immortal. They cannot be killed, destroyed, or erased, unless they break the Angelic code.

They are just like Future Zamasu and Manga Merged Zamasu. Totally invulnerable and immortal.

But in terms of pure strength/power: Current UI Vegito/Gogeta >>>>>>>> Whis (imo!).

[TheSaiyanGod]

Moro couldn't put UI Goku down even when he got UI himself. He got the edge only after merging with the planet so he could use an angel's abilities, and absorbing the energy from everyone, even Goku's... and he almost gets destroyed with all that going on for him. So not even with UI he was enough to take UI Goku.

Angel Moro just didn't have time for that. But it is said that the power of both was equal, with Moro having the edge because of his magic.