Why do some have a dislike of the climax of the Zamasu/Black arc?

[Jord]

Because the villain got beaten by Goku pressing a button and calling a guy that simple erases the bad guy from the story. No climactic end battle. Let's just call someone to end this story. Literally.
Has to be the worst deus ex machina in the series. Even the Super Android 17 saga had a better ending.

There was a final climatic battle, we saw it when Trunks sliced Zamasu in two.

Goku pressing the buttom was a last resort and wasn't a deus ex machina. It had a purpose to set up Zeno and his true power and let us know he really was the God of the universe. And led into the next arc. You're acting like the whole button press just happened from the start.

But it wasn't a climacting battle since the battle wasn't decided by the outcome of it. The villain wasn't defeated.

[SupremeKai25]

Because the villain got beaten by Goku pressing a button and calling a guy that simple erases the bad guy from the story. No climactic end battle. Let's just call someone to end this story. Literally.
Has to be the worst deus ex machina in the series. Even the Super Android 17 saga had a better ending.

There was a final climatic battle, we saw it when Trunks sliced Zamasu in two.

Goku pressing the buttom was a last resort and wasn't a deus ex machina. It had a purpose to set up Zeno and his true power and let us know he really was the God of the universe. And led into the next arc. You're acting like the whole button press just happened from the start.

But it wasn't a climacting battle since the battle wasn't decided by the outcome of it. The villain wasn't defeated.

Is there a rule that the villain MUST be defeated in a good story?

[Jord]

There was a final climatic battle, we saw it when Trunks sliced Zamasu in two.

Goku pressing the buttom was a last resort and wasn't a deus ex machina. It had a purpose to set up Zeno and his true power and let us know he really was the God of the universe. And led into the next arc. You're acting like the whole button press just happened from the start.

But it wasn't a climacting battle since the battle wasn't decided by the outcome of it. The villain wasn't defeated.

Is there a rule that the villain MUST be defeated in a good story?

It doesn't have to be in most stories. In DB it has to because, otherwise the world gets destroyed.
And ultimately, he WAS defeated. By a guy that suddenly shows up and erases him from the story. Weak.

[SupremeKai25]

But it wasn't a climacting battle since the battle wasn't decided by the outcome of it. The villain wasn't defeated.

Is there a rule that the villain MUST be defeated in a good story?

It doesn't have to be in most stories. In DB it has to because, otherwise the world gets destroyed.
And ultimately, he WAS defeated. By a guy that suddenly shows up and erases him from the story. Weak.

This was heavily foreshadowed. In literally the first episode of the arc, Whis mentions how Zeno could erase all of existence, and already erased 6 universes in the past. This is once again brought up when Goku meets him, and this is also when Goku receives the Zeno Button which, conveniently, can summon Zeno to the battlefield. Furthermore, as Zamasu was immortal, it was clear that he wouldn't be defeated conventionally. Every single villain in DB was defeated by very strong attacks by the protagonists, except for Zamasu. He couldn't be destroyed by a very strong kamehameha or spirit bomb, because he's immortal. Only the Mafuba and Zeno could take care of him, and the Mafuba pathetically failed, so the involvement of the Zeno Button was natural.

So, to recap everything:

- It is mentioned many times throughout the arc that Zeno can erase all of existence if he's provoked;
- Zamasu is immortal. The writers made him immortal for a reason. It's because they don't want him to be defeated by a strong ki attack like every other Dragon Ball villain. If they wanted a classic DB ending, they wouldn't introduce an immortal villain;
- The Mafuba was the "only" way to counter Zamasu's immortality, and it failed;
- Even if you managed to overpower Zamasu, half of his body would remain thanks to immortality, which means that he couldn't be defeated in battle.

So where do you go from here? I thought it was pretty obvious that the arc would end in this way. I'll admit I didn't expect Zeno to destroy the entire multiverse, I thought he'd get rid only of Earth or the 7th Universe, but regardless the ending was very predictable. Against an immortal villain, a sword slash clearly wasn't going to work.

[goku the krump dancer]

Dragon Ball is no stranger to "Ass Pulls" and they aren't always inherently a bad thing but for me they were handled extremely poorly in the anime version of this arc, from Goku Black's Auto Zenkais to Future Zamasu tanking everything with no side effect, to Vegetto seemingly doing no real damage to Fused Zamasu after Goku maimed his face and finally to Zamasu using his soul to merge with the sky.. All nonsense if you ask me.

Sure Future Zamasu is "immortal" but so was Garlic Jr and at least with him, he still seemed to feel pain and was able to be backed into a corner more believably because despite not being able to be killed he wasnt strong enough to bulldoze the heroes.

Zeno coming out at the end wasn't great but it also doesn't bother me because there was literally no other options. So after all the ass pulling the writers did to back themselves into a corner, why not have the last one reference something that happened earlier on.

[ankokudaishogun]

Goku pressing the buttom was a last resort and wasn't a deus ex machina.

Yes, it was. Literally AND theatrically: a Machine brings a God on the Stage so it can Resolve the Story.

The main twist is that while Dragon Ball is usually a Comedy, this narrative arc was instead a Tragedy.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku pressing the buttom was a last resort and wasn't a deus ex machina.

Yes, it was. Literally AND theatrically: a Machine brings a God on the Stage so it can Resolve the Story.

The main twist is that while Dragon Ball is usually a Comedy, this narrative arc was instead a Tragedy.

It's not a Deus Ex Machina because all of the elements were properly foreshadowed beforehand, and thus none of what happened is actually out of nowhere as far as precedent and storytelling goes.

[SupremeKai25]

Deus ex Machina (from TV Trope):

A Deus ex Machina (pron: /diːəs ɛks mækɪnə/ for Britons, /deɪuːs ɛks mɑːkɪnə/ for Americans; /deus eks maːkʰinaː/ in the orginal Latin) is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way. It's often used as the solution to what is called "writing yourself into a corner," where the problem is so extreme that nothing in the established setting suggests that there is a logical way for the characters to escape.

The Zeno Button is factually not a Deux ex machina:

- It is not a new object, as it was introduced in ep. 55 (it is used in ep. 67, for some reference), where it was also explained what's its use for;
- The writers NEVER wrote themselves into a corner with that arc. They knew very well what they were doing. It was all planned. They were going for a tragic ending, so they made an immortal villain that could never be defeated by mortal hands. They didn't make a villain who got so many power-ups that he spiralled out of their control. They knew very well what they were going for;
- It was so predictable that they would use the Button to defeat Zamasu. Like, they wouldn't introduce it literally in the same arc for no reason... and, coincidentally, the villain of that arc was also immortal.

Do you know what would be an ACTUAL Deus ex machina? Trunks just destroying Zamasu for good. THAT would be a Deus ex machina, because Zamasu was still immortal, he had an everlasting soul, so it would make no sense for a simple sword slash to destroy his soul and erase him once and for all.

You can take solace in the fact that Goku and Trunks technically killed Goku Black, as they got rid of the mortal half of Fused Zamasu. Notice how Infinite Zamasu looks like Future Zamasu, that's because at that point Goku Black was dead. But the Immortal Zamasu was never going to be defeated by them.

[ZeroNeonix]

The Zeno button made the entire arc feel like a waste of time. Goku could have pushed that stupid button at any point, and the results would have been exactly the same. I don't care if it was foreshadowed. Making us watch several episodes of them fighting, just to use a button to win in the end is just bad writting.

The entire arc reeks of bad writing. Like, the big reveal is that Goku Black was Zamasu in Goku's body? ...Okay? That was the most anticlimactic reveal. I know the Goten theory made no sense, since Goten was only conceived because of Future Trunks prolonging Goku's life, and so he wouldn't exist in the future. But virtually anything would have been more interesting than finding out this character we only find out about later used the Dragon Balls to Ginyu Goku's body away. I like the character of Goku Black, but if they had only introduced Zamasu earlier in the series somehow (you know, by actually planning stuff in advance), then maybe that reveal could have worked. A good mystery works with information that is available, not with information that the audience had no way of knowing.

For example, in the show Monk, there's a car bomb murder that happens on Day Light Savings. The audience knows the time changed because Monk obsessively reset the clocks at the beginning of the episode. So when it's revealed that the murderer killed the wrong person by mistake, due to the time change, it doesn't feel like an asspull. The audience had the chance to figure it out themselves. With Goku Black, the twist is just "bad guy used magic balls." Oh boy. That was a reveal worth waiting for. [/sarc]

[Jord]

Dragon Ball is no stranger to "Ass Pulls" and they aren't always inherently a bad thing but for me they were handled extremely poorly in the anime version of this arc, from Goku Black's Auto Zenkais to Future Zamasu tanking everything with no side effect, to Vegetto seemingly doing no real damage to Fused Zamasu after Goku maimed his face and finally to Zamasu using his soul to merge with the sky.. All nonsense if you ask me.

Sure Future Zamasu is "immortal" but so was Garlic Jr and at least with him, he still seemed to feel pain and was able to be backed into a corner more believably because despite not being able to be killed he wasnt strong enough to bulldoze the heroes.

Zeno coming out at the end wasn't great but it also doesn't bother me because there was literally no other options. So after all the ass pulling the writers did to back themselves into a corner, why not have the last one reference something that happened earlier on.

Very good point. Garlic Jr was an immortal villain that was actually beat in a believable manner. Even though he was immortal, it didn't feel like the writers were cheating the audience.

Asspulls in general are indeed Super's biggest problem in the writing department. It undermines the believability of the entire story and makes people lose interest. When you look at it, asspulls and nostalgia are super's biggest problems.

--Frieza going from laughably weak at the end of the Buu Saga to matching SSG just by training for a short while? Sure.
--Roshi who admitted he had become too weak to fight alongside the heroes at the beginning of Z suddenly being able to fight alongside them? Sure.
--Same goes for Android 17, who was outclassed at SSJ2 level.
--Frieza wins! Finally! That is interesting. Oh wait, we have a dude that can rewind time so we can have a second go at it without --repercussions? Sure.
--All beaten universes are going to be erased! Oh no, we use the wish to NOT let everyone get erased! Sure.

[ZeroNeonix]

Garlic Jr. isn't the best example. That idiot held his only weakness, and he exposes himself to it. All he had to do was outlast them, but he makes himself open. At least that power is set up, if I remember correctly, by Jr. saying that Kami banished his father there or something. But when he comes back and does exactly same thing in the filler arc? Insufferable.

You know what would have been funny, though? If after Goku Black cut a hole in the sky, Garlic Junior jumped out, saw Goku Black and mistook him for Goku, and then dragged him into the Dead Zone. Only problem with that is it would have made Garlic Jr. kinda canon. lol

[SupremeKai25]

Why are people comparing Zamasu to that mongrel Garlic Jr.? Zamasu was granted immortality by the Super Dragon Balls, which are far more powerful than the normal ones. Thus it is very likely that Zamasu had a more complete/refined immortality, which allowed him to ignore most pain.

Plus Zamasu didn't care about any pain he felt, because that reminded him of his immortality. So if anything the physical pain made him happier. You could say he was sort of a masochist:

[ZeroNeonix]

Immortality is immortality. In both cases, the enemy was literally impossible to kill, and the writers had to come up with some other way to get rid of them. For Garlic Jr., it was trapping him in an alternate dimension. With Zamasu, it was the Zeno button. I'm still wondering how Zamasu was able to kill all the gods and angels besides Zeno (and presumably the Grand Priest) without Zeno finding out about it. But that's another discussion.

[Koitsukai]

Beerus, or Whis, I can't remember now, said that they had ways to deal with an immortal like Zamasu, so I guess they have some refined version of the Mafuba or the alternate dimension thingy that got rid of Garlick Jr. Or something else.

I always felt that it would've been better if they actually sealed Zamasu inside that jar, instead of having Goku look like an idiot, forgetting the seal, and have Black wear the potara in order to get Zamasu out of there. The sheer force of the potara fusion should've been enough to break Zamasu out.

[SupremeKai25]

Immortality is immortality. discussion.

That's reductive, it's not that simple. There are various degrees of immortality. For example, some might have a full immortality (immortal body and soul) or a partial immortality (immortal soul and mortal body, or immortal body and mortal soul). Likewise, there might be major differences between the immortality granted by earthly artifacts, and the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls, which were forged by the Dragon God Zalama.

As for Zeno, I don't understand why people think he would've intervened against Zamasu. Zeno is completely apathetic, he literally erased six universes for fun. With the Tournament of Power, he basically came up with his own version of Project Zero Mortals anyway.

[ZeroNeonix]

Immortality is immortality. discussion.

That's reductive, it's not that simple. There are various degrees of immortality. For example, some might have a full immortality (immortal body and soul) or a partial immortality (immortal soul and mortal body, or immortal body and mortal soul). Likewise, there might be major differences between the immortality granted by earthly artifacts, and the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls, which were forged by the Dragon God Zalama.

As for Zeno, I don't understand why people think he would've intervened against Zamasu. Zeno is completely apathetic, he literally erased six universes for fun. With the Tournament of Power, he basically came up with his own version of Project Zero Mortals anyway.

There's nothing in-universe to suggest the immortality granted by Earth's Dragon Balls is any different from the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls. In both cases, they couldn't be killed. Anything else is headcanon.

As for Zeno, I find it hard to believe he wasn't at least informed of Zamasu's antics. When he shows up, he asks, "Who is he?" Clearly completely ignorant of the fact his entire multiverse is empty, or who was responsible for it. He may be apathetic, but surely even he has to know he has a duty to step in when something that big happens. Heck, when he finally does show up, he describes Zamasu as "annoying," and erases him without second thought. And what happened to the Grand Priest? Was he in the dark too? Did he not care?

[SupremeKai25]

Immortality is immortality. discussion.

That's reductive, it's not that simple. There are various degrees of immortality. For example, some might have a full immortality (immortal body and soul) or a partial immortality (immortal soul and mortal body, or immortal body and mortal soul). Likewise, there might be major differences between the immortality granted by earthly artifacts, and the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls, which were forged by the Dragon God Zalama.

As for Zeno, I don't understand why people think he would've intervened against Zamasu. Zeno is completely apathetic, he literally erased six universes for fun. With the Tournament of Power, he basically came up with his own version of Project Zero Mortals anyway.

There's nothing in-universe to suggest the immortality granted by Earth's Dragon Balls is any different from the immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls. In both cases, they couldn't be killed. Anything else is headcanon.

The Super Dragon Balls are so powerful that they can only grant one wish, as opposed to the earthly Dragon Balls that can grant three wishes. Why do you think there is that limitation?

Regardless this whole argument is moot, as I proved that Zamasu can still feel pain, just like Garlic Jr. There are even some moments where Zamasu is punched/kicked and grunts in pain.

As for Zeno, I find it hard to believe he wasn't at least informed of Zamasu's antics. When he shows up, he asks, "Who is he?" Clearly completely ignorant of the fact his entire multiverse is empty, or who was responsible for it. He may be apathetic, but surely even he has to know he has a duty to step in when something that big happens. Heck, when he finally does show up, he describes Zamasu as "annoying," and erases him without second thought. And what happened to the Grand Priest? Was he in the dark too? Did he not care?

It is easy to explain what happened to the Grand Priest in light of the recent Moro arc. Like Merus, the Grand Priest most likely tried to intervene against Zamasu and got himself erased, as he was defending mortals (which is forbidden for an Angel, unless explicitely ordered to do so by their Destroyer God).

So... who would warn Zeno, exactly? Zamasu killed every Kai and Destroyer in no time (remember that he is a Supreme Kai who can use Kai Kai, one of the most advanced teleportation techniques in the universe), and the Grand Priest probably got himself erased. That is how no word reached Zeno of Project Zero Mortals. That, and Zamasu was being extremely careful.

Previously, the Grand Priest not intervening against Zamasu used to be a major plot hole of the arc, but now thanks to the Moro arc it is pretty easy to headcanon it away. The Grand Priest tried to play hero and got himself erased, it is that simple. I guess he was not that smart after all.

[ZeroNeonix]

The Super Dragon Balls are so powerful that they can only grant one wish, as opposed to the earthly Dragon Balls that can grant three wishes. Why do you think there is that limitation?

Regardless this whole argument is moot, as I proved that Zamasu can still feel pain, just like Garlic Jr. There are even some moments where Zamasu is punched/kicked and grunts in pain.

The difference between the Earth Dragon Balls and the Super Dragon Balls is scope. If you ask Shenron for something, there's a 9/10 chance he's going to be a little bitch about it.

"Oh, I can't do that. It's too hard. It's against the rules. Can I go back to sleep now?"

Ask Super Shenron, and he will just do it. No rules, no limitations. But if you use both sets of balls for the same wish, that doesn't mean the Super Dragon Balls will grant a better version of that wish. If Oolong asked Super Shenron for the world's most comfortable pair of underwear, he'd get the same result.

It is easy to explain what happened to the Grand Priest in light of the recent Moro arc. Like Merus, the Grand Priest most likely tried to intervene against Zamasu and got himself erased, as he was defending mortals (which is forbidden for an Angel, unless explicitely ordered to do so by their Destroyer God).

So... who would warn Zeno, exactly? Zamasu killed every Kai and Destroyer in no time (remember that he is a Supreme Kai who can use Kai Kai, one of the most advanced teleportation techniques in the universe), and the Grand Priest probably got himself erased. That is how no word reached Zeno of Project Zero Mortals. That, and Zamasu was being extremely careful.

Previously, the Grand Priest not intervening against Zamasu used to be a major plot hole of the arc, but now thanks to the Moro arc it is pretty easy to headcanon it away. The Grand Priest tried to play hero and got himself erased, it is that simple. I guess he was not that smart after all.

I'm not caught up in the Moro arc, and I don't understand what you mean by the Grand Priest being erased, so I'll just have to take your word on that one.

[Kataphrut]

I think Toriyama was going through a bit of a phase. From Battle of Gods to Future Trunks, every story arc he did had this weird, anticlimactic ending where the heroes lose and had to get bailed out by their all-powerful god friends. He probably thought it was funny. Trouble is, it's very hard to make an ending like that work, and the results ended up being really hit or miss. Future Trunks is just where the bottom fell out.

Who knows, maybe he was still going through it. Tournament of Power and Broly both had endings that could be read as anticlimactic or subversive on paper (Goku and Freeza teaming up, Broly escaping at the last second due to a wish) but they had good direction and writing bringing everything together in a way that made it work. Maybe it's just a rule that because most of original Dragon Ball's climaxes were kind of slapdash, that the new ones should follow the formula. In Moro, Toyotaro went out of his way to make the climax feel as seat-of-your-pants as Cell and Buu were, but luckily he was able to pull it off.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think I can buy that the Grand Priest wanted to take matters into his own hands and got erased.
That makes no sense, he knows better, he knows what would happen if he were to drop his neutrality and act on it, why would he do that, instead of informing Zeno? Plus he is quite adamant in upholding the law.
And if he was willing to take that risk, then he would've at least gotten rid of the mortal Zamasu in Goku's body, or have sealed the immortal Zamasu. A much, much weaker Merus dealt with a much stronger enemy and got the job done.
Also, he would've been erased in front of Black and Zamasu, not somewhere in his palace by himself, and they would be still boasting about how THE Angel of the multiverse tried and failed to stop them.

The GP's absence has no explanation, we can only theorize that he was no longer there to inform Zeno about Zamasu. Maybe Zeno erased him, demoted him or something like that in one of his rants. Or perhaps being impartial also means not informing Zeno about the life and death of the universes. Or he knew how he'd react and chose not to disturb him. But the GP going rogue and dying while knowing the outcome? I highly doubt that.

It's weird though, Zeno was following the Champa Tournament, but was completely oblivious of a multiversal genocide.