The peculiar case of G12 (Mai's News of the Valley)

[PurestEvil]

Track G12 aka Mai's News of the Valley is known for its supposed "tail end" being used in scenes to invoke shock.
However, according to RafaStar and tronk21, the "tail end" is actually just another separate track from the actual G12 track, and was mistaken as otherwise because of a very subtle fade between the tracks (higher quality version for reference)

Do you think this theory is true? If so, what number should the "tail end" be assigned?

[kenisu3000]

The odd thing is, for that particular track ("Wild Boy", disc 2 track 13), the booklet only lists F37, A9, G12 and I19.

It gets even weirder: G12 is described as being played a lot when the good guys have an accidental encounter with an enemy. "Accident" is the word they use (akushidento, アクシデント), but to me that suggests the very moment of the encounter; yet the cue itself has more of a build-up feel to it, it evokes an enemy spying on the good guys BEFORE he springs out, and that's hardly an accident.

The "shock"/"tail end" cue would more closely fit the moment the enemy reveals himself. But in my experience that should have a number that starts with F (the category for short/bridge cues), not G.

Or maybe I'm reeeeally overthinking this and their logic is a lot broader than a moment-by-moment thing. Whatever the case may be, there are five cues in the track but only four are acknowledged in the booklet.

[RemixerDBZ]

Track G12 aka Mai's News of the Valley is known for its supposed "tail end" being used in scenes to invoke shock.
However, according to RafaStar and tronk21, the "tail end" is actually just another separate track from the actual G12 track, and was mistaken as otherwise because of a very subtle fade between the tracks (higher quality version for reference)

Do you think this theory is true? If so, what number should the "tail end" be assigned?

Considering how 99% of Kikuchi's BGMs have been ripped at this point, I don't think anyone cares too much at this point.

[PurestEvil]

Considering how 99% of Kikuchi's BGMs have been ripped at this point, I don't think anyone cares too much at this point.

touche

[Terez]

Apologies for zombie-posting in this thread, but I came across it while searching for a video to link for someone because I am working on the wiki page for G12 and I was talking about it and now my curiosity has been piqued. Is there a reason to assume that there is a mistake in the Daizenshuu liner notes other than the fact that Part A and Part B are never used together? I can understand why one might put a lot of weight on that particular fact, but aside from that, is there something else?

[PurestEvil]

Is there a reason to assume that there is a mistake in the Daizenshuu liner notes other than the fact that Part A and Part B are never used together? I can understand why one might put a lot of weight on that particular fact, but aside from that, is there something else?

Well, I am not sure about it myself. That's why I made this post. Maybe if someone can listen to the CD track VERY carefully, they could find some separation.

[Terez]

I'm not sure that even separation would say much about it. Separation happens in music all the time; sometimes you just have short rests or breath marks between bars to emphasize a downbeat, and besides, from what I know of music work, it's common to do multiple takes starting from rehearsal marks rather than starting from the top, so you have sections of the piece being edited together for the final version. I don't know much about film/tv scoring but it seems like that would be especially true in a situation where you know the track is going to be cut to pieces to fit the timing of the animation. Sometimes different instruments are recorded separately. (Like in M424EXT; the voice track can be removed because it was recorded separately; the underlying instrumentation is the same recording, unless I am missing something.) Sometimes instrumental tracks are added after the fact. (Like B3, where the as-released version is never used.)

Maybe they just never found an opportunity to use the entire BGM in the anime? (They sing the music selection guy's praises in the Daizenshuu notes but he definitely had off moments and some larger gaps when it came to things like keeping themes consistent.)

[tronk21]

My nickname was mentioned in the opening post so I'm gonna explain why assume that these are separate tracks.

First of all, it doesn't make much sense to me to record one singular track with parts of it that have two completely different vibes to them and then never use it fully. Instead have the music editor separate the track in each single case when either the longer part or the shorter ending is being used in the show where they could've recorded the two parts separately to begin with.

Secondly, we know that there is a set of cues known as "F", which stands for very short tracks or "bridges". To call the supposed tail end of G12 an F cue makes perfect sense. Both the length of the short part fits and the style fits to classify it as an F when you compare it with other known F cues.

Finally:

Is there a reason to assume that there is a mistake in the Daizenshuu liner notes other than the fact that Part A and Part B are never used together?

The thing is that it doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake in order for it to be two separate tracks. It could be the case that the longer part is G12 as described and the F-like stinger is not mentioned at all. So it could be like a mistake of omission. Therefore, it can be that the tail end is not classified at all in the Daizenshuu notes. What makes it even more credible is that there are a few untitled cues in the A-J series. So that stinger is one of those in my opinion.

I'm not saying I've got some behind the scenes knowledge to definitely say for certain that this music with the fan title of "Mai's News of the Valley" are two distinct cues. I'm only saying that I see it as much, much more probable that they are separate. The more interesting question is whether we'll ever know for sure. I'm still waiting for the complete Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z Kikuchi music release with all tracks properly named with their production number. I'm not losing hope over this one!

[Terez]

Thanks so much for explaining. I am pretty new to studying Dragon Ball music so I have a lot to learn from those of you who have been studying it for many years. I hope I am not being obnoxious.

I'm not sure I agree that the two parts have completely different vibes. To me, it's a very cohesive singular piece of music. The ending is contrasting but it's typical jazzy-ending fare, minor-major 7th chord (think the end of the Bond theme, but without the 9), trumpet shake. The first part of the piece builds up to a really thirsty dominant, and while Kikuchi's BGM often end on the dominant (a chord that begs for resolution), dominants typically resolve to the tonic which is exactly what this piece does. Even the tempo is consistent.

Now, I don't think the A part ending on the dominant is itself especially strong evidence for the B part being part of the same piece. Kikuchi probably expected that BGM ending on the dominant would generally be followed by another BGM that begins on the tonic. I think this is why he wrote virtually everything in F Major or F Minor - any of those pieces ending on C7 would naturally lead into any of the other BGM in F Minor or F Major, so writing everything in the same key makes it harder for Miyashita to screw up key relationships. That said, I do believe the progression in G12 is very natural, and not just in terms of harmony. F48 is also built on a minor-major 7th chord but it would not flow as smoothly and cohesively as the end we were given.

For the record, I don't think there is anything wrong with treating them as separate cues for the sake of documentation; I will probably call them G12 (A) and G12 (B) myself. I just don't see any reason to assume they left something out in the booklet notes. In every other instance where the Daizenshuu folks don't have the catalogue number on hand, they draw attention to it as a separate piece (the odd one being the supposed second version of H11, which is a real head-scratcher). An error by omission is still an error, and IMO the structure of the music supports their implication that it's a singular piece that was simply never fully used in the anime. Full tracks are rarely used from beginning to end; some are never used fully even by adding their parts (e.g. H1, RIP) and others are never used at all (RIP for example the unused and un-numbered piece on part d of track #10, which is really excellent).

As kenisu pointed out, the description in the liner notes matches the B part rather than the A part, so if they did omit mentioning one of the two parts, it was the first, not the second. The term "accident" in Japanese is often used to refer to some sort of unexpected event, and Julian translated it as "some kind of trouble"; this is exactly how the B part is used in the anime. And we know of at least two F-session pieces that were never used (F48 and F49) so I would also be very reluctant to assume anything based on the gaps in the F catalogue. There are many unknowns in the F catalogue.

Contrasting sections are also not uncommon. A6 is an example of an ending that takes a wildly contrasting turn, to the point that it apparently confused people for years. The instrumentation is relatively consistent, but the tempo changes (which it doesn't in G12's ending). It's still cohesive as a singular piece of music. M18 is another example; the introduction is in D Minor; the main part of the piece is in F Major and the melodic instruments are different. Still a singular piece, and cohesive enough.

tl;dr: I am not really trying to convert anyone to my belief; I was just a little taken aback by the language that was used in the video descriptions linked above, i.e. "This short cue and 'Mai's News of the Valley' (G12) were incorrectly considered as one track, but that's not true, here is a correct upload of this track..." And the other: "This cue and a other different cue were incorrectly considered as one track, so tronk21 from the Kanzenshuu forums added the last notes of this track (which were hidden by the fade-in of another track)..." Anyway, the language used in these descriptions was so definitive that I figured there must be something I was missing.

Thanks again for responding. I'm not as optimistic as you about an eventual full release of the BGM, but fingers crossed!

[linkdude20002001]

I'm not a part of the conversation, but I want to say that that was an especially facinating read, Perez. :O

[BladeXRG]

I know this is a dead thread, but I'm gonna put it simple for y'all: everytime it's used in the anime and isn't interrupted, the last part of "G12-1" hangs in the air far longer than in the CDs before fading out, which translates to the CDs not having the full fade, and that is justified by the crossfading of the Ongakushu; so yeah, "Big, Fat Uh-Oh" is a different track and it's not debatable.

[Rafa Fast]

Sorry for resurrecting this dead thread, but I just want to give my letter
Even though tronk21 helped me in discovering the truth about this track, I agree with him in some parts, and in others, I disagree, I do think the "A" part, and the "B" works very well, before all this, I really thought they were one track, even though B have a different vibe, the progression works really well imo, it's like M1912, it was always just the last part that was used in the TV series, and that part could have been very well a separate cue, but no, it's still M1912 and it works really well, the reasons for me considering them separate tracks are:

1- In the TV series, the "A part" of G12 ends with a much longer and cohesive fade out than in the Album release, just as Blade said, but okay, that weirdly also happens with H19 in the Nippon Ijin taisho special, at the 0:22 mark, there is a small break before the ending with the variant of Makafushigi Adventure, this in the track we know, but in the special, the 0:22 mark ends, but then, the rest is cut off, but the break at 0:22 is weirdly much longer and it doesn't exist in the original track, the case of this track is for another time, there are other reasons that collaborate for my opinion ipabout G12.

2-Some tracks are unlisted in the official release, so why won't this "B part" be one of them? Specially, from the F tracks?

3-That album mixing really tricks some people, for example, my original upload in 2018 of the track A6 "Goku vs Gyumao", had F48 in the beginning, even though the official listing doesn't consider that, I thought F48 was the beginning of A6, for me, the transiction (bridge) sounded very cohesive, just in 2021 that I figured out that they were separate tracks. The same for G12, my original uploaded contained the two parts in the same track, that happens with a lot of tracks in the album release, the mixing unfortunately screwed up the fade out of some tracks, and these are the reasons for the believing that the end of G12 is indeed a different track.

tl;dr: I am not really trying to convert anyone to my belief; I was just a little taken aback by the language that was used in the video descriptions linked above, i.e. "This short cue and 'Mai's News of the Valley' (G12) were incorrectly considered as one track, but that's not true, here is a correct upload of this track..." And the other: "This cue and a other different cue were incorrectly considered as one track, so tronk21 from the Kanzenshuu forums added the last notes of this track (which were hidden by the fade-in of another track)..." Anyway, the language used in these descriptions was so definitive that I figured there must be something I was missing.

I sorry for that, I agree, the way I gave the information in the desc indeed made it looks like something that shouldn't be denied, something absolute, well my english in that time was much worse and my way of expressing myself was very different back then, well, nowadays I would rather say something like "These reuploads were made because there are hints of this short track and G12 not being the same, which for me really makes sense", again, sorry for the confusion