Why are they refusing to create a female main villain?

[Peach]

We just had a female villain with Android 21.

It being a story in a game doesn't make it any less valid than Moro.

[Tai Lung]

Back when Z was airing I could understand why there weren't any, but when it comes to modern Dragon Ball I just really don't get it. We don't live in the 90s anymore. Plenty amount of mangas that came out in the past decade and were targeted for boys gave good treatment to the female characters. Look at Attack On Titan for example. Nobody complains about it having female characters that can kick ass. Nobody. Not even a single soul. Or look at a manga that came out in the 2000s: Soul Eater. Many badass female characters, both antagonists and protagonists. Heck the main character herself was a female, and no boy gave a shit, they still loved the manga.

Even Naruto, one of the most infamous mangas of all times because of how it treated its female characters made its final big bad a woman. NARUTO. So why can't Dragon Ball Super give us a canon female main villain? Don't come at me saying only boys read this manga. That's false. Plenty amount of females watched and still watch this series. The few female antagonists Z had all ended up being well liked by the fans. 18, Mai, Fasha, even freaking Zangya who had no personality, none of these characters were disliked or looked down upon by the readers for being females. In fact, they all ended up being fairly well liked. Zangya is probably even more popular than Bojack himself for Pete's sake. The games made 2 female main villains, Towa and Android 21, and they both ended up being popular and well liked by the fans.

It just really annoys me. I think it would be really refreshing to finally have a female main villain, but for some reason they don't think the same way. Heck they also refuse to create female protagonists that can fight. The only one we have is 18, and she barely gets any screentime. I'm getting tired of the sausage fest.

I have always thought that instead of FNF we could have an android 21 arc with clones of frieza being an improved clone of frieza which would become golden frieza but android 21 would be the mastermind behind this

or instead of super broly frieza forms an alliance with kefla to defeat goku and vegeta all this before the universe 6 tournament

I guess it all has to do with toriyama ... he has no experience writing female characters ... in most of the current ones he only did the design but nothing else

[Aim]

Probably because not many people desire to see a chick get bloodied up or have her body mutilated by Ki blasts. The only way it would pass is if a villainess happened to be a real scumbag that made Freeza look like a saint by comparison.

This has never happened, not to the extent you suggest anyway. Unless you count the Videl fight and Tenshinhan as being mutilated, which is such an over exaggeration. I think reducing women to “children status” where they cannot be touched is very insulting.

I guess it all has to do with toriyama ... he has no experience writing female characters ... in most of the current ones he only did the design but nothing else

I don’t see how there’s a massive difference in writing “female” characters, this is a show with literal space aliens, it’s not that hard if Toriyama has written a whole cast of characters.

The target audience of Dragon Ball was originally boys, so of course the main characters are all males for them to easily identify with, but that seems to be changing with the recent introduction of quite a few strong female characters, so I think we'll see a female villian soon.

I think we’re getting to a stage now where you don’t necessarily need to be the same gender as the character in order to identify with them.

[Psajdak]

Dark Arale would be great.

[ChronoTwigger]

As a side note, I would like to tell that in the '90 there was A LOT of female evil characters.
Gundam - Haman Karn
Daitarn III - Koros
Koutetsu Jeeg - Himika
Captain Harlock - Mazonas
Galaxy Express - Promethian Queen
Devilman - Siren
Saint Seiya - Two movies, Hilda Polaris, Pandora and a lot others
Practically all shoujo had a major or relevant female villain...
Those just the one I can quote on the fly.

Is quite a myth in '90 japanese anime were "puritan" - in fact they are waaaaay more "morality concerned" nowadays than before.

[UpFromTheSkies]

As a side note, I would like to tell that in the '90 there was A LOT of female evil characters.
Gundam - Haman Karn
Daitarn III - Koros
Koutetsu Jeeg - Himika
Captain Harlock - Mazonas
Galaxy Express - Promethian Queen
Devilman - Siren
Saint Seiya - Two movies, Hilda Polaris, Pandora and a lot others
Practically all shoujo had a major or relevant female villain...
Those just the one I can quote on the fly.

Is quite a myth in '90 japanese anime were "puritan" - in fact they are waaaaay more "morality concerned" nowadays than before.

Don't forget Lady Kayura from Samurai Troopers / Ronin Warriors

[ankokudaishogun]

Is quite a myth in '90 japanese anime were "puritan" - in fact they are waaaaay more "morality concerned" nowadays than before.

you did list only stuff from the 70s, except Seiya which is from the 80s

[JulieYBM]

Well, I guess I'm going to be getting back on my bullshit. Kind of amazing to see I managed to avoid posting for nearly two months. Alas, this is a topic where a woman's viewpoint might be of interest. Also, I'm just bored and trying not to stress eat.

From a corporate point-of-view, given that Dragon Ball is aimed at a mainstream audience for families, I imagine the prevailing thought from the cis men is that women cannot be the figure of antagonism because the boys who insert as Gokuu and friends need to not be taught to explicitly 'hate' women. Of course, this doesn't stop regressive ideologies from seeping into the series anyway. The people who make these massive commercial properties are mostly men. Men are poorly socialized due to societal failings. That is to say, cis men don't know how the hell to be co-workers with women. Obviously, you have your exceptions to the rule but the rule is nevertheless the rule: cis men suck at navigating a workplace because they don't know women. They treat women as space aliens and have no sense of casualness around them--or if they do it's because they're just trying to make romantic moves. So, from childhood to school to the workplace, men feel unrelaxed around women, which inevitably makes the further inclusion of women in workplaces--publishing companies, animation corporations, video game studios, et cetera--an upstream battle.

How does this tie into Dragon Ball? Simple: the lack of proper socialization and nurturing of cis men leads to seeing women strictly as others. Of course, that also means repeating the cycle and that influence of repeating the cycle of further othering in works of art, especially commercial works of art. I am personally very surprised that Matsui Aya managed to attain the role of series kousei for Dragon Ball GT but I imagine that might have been due to being from Koyama Takao's company. Still, even in the year 2020 we see how little influence women have in these corporate entities producing children's media. The PreCure franchise--a franchise for young girls--largely uses men as their head creators--series directors, film directors, episode directors, head writers and episode writers--and while I think there's definitely good work that comes from those men--work that shows that they've tried to do some degree of research and consultation with women and girls--they are still at the end of the day second-hand salespersons of the many infinite 'female experiences' (yeah, that's a clunky wording I just woke up).

Anyway, I think we've seen that in how Dragon Ball is managed even now. Dragon Ball Super had a total of one (?) person whom we are to assume is a woman--Ishitani Megumi--acting as an assistant episode director, storyboard artist and episode director. To the best of my knowledge, no other woman was involved in a major creative role. When there's only the voices of--whom are likely cis men--in the room when the development of the story and individual episodes is considered we will only ever get the views of men. No, I happen to like Kale, Caulifla and Ribrianne--an adult woman such as I find them to be charming and fun characters--but their presence as soft antagonists--and furthermore, antagonists who becomes friends with the heroes--goes to show that the men producing the cartoon are very concerned with appearances. "We can't have the women get too hurt" or "the women can't be too mean or else the boys will be impressed to feel similar of women, when they probably already feel negatively towards the women in their own lives!"

The massive number of cis male characters in Dragon Ball makes it difficult to balance how women are treated in the series. I believe this can be resolved by--of course--placing women in production leadership roles for Dragon Ball projects and then allowing them the freedom to include women in major and varied roles. Speaking from my own personal view as a woman, I'd love to see more storylines dedicated to Women Doing Cool Shit just as I'd like to see actually well-written male characters for one. Toriyama's self-professed inability to write women is hardly more than a distraction from the fact that he can't exactly write men, either. The characters are all ultimately little strands of his personality re-wired into different shapes and that ultimately reflects on how he writes the women: Blooma is smart, yes, but she's also a brat, which, hey, I like Blooma, but it also goes to show that it's the only way Toriyama knows how to write a recurring women. Artificial Human #18 is cold and money-grubbing, which, again, there's aspects of womens' personalities like that, too, but the inability to do more with that to actually make her a more well-rounded character just goes to show my original point: cis men like Toriyama view women as space aliens. I imagine scenes like the beginning of Shin Gojira where the prime minister and his dozens of ministers all gather in rooms to fruitlessly discuss how they're going to treat the 'other' (Gojira/women) in this time of crisis (Gojira's rampage/women asking for inclusion in the workplace and media).

I want better for Dragon Ball, since it's a work I enjoy but is still extremely flawed in ways that make half its readership feel othered.

[Psajdak]

Dragon Ball is fine even without female authors.

[Jord]

Dragon Ball is fine even without female authors.

Agreed. It's a Shonen manga. That should say enough.

More importantly, it is making a ton of money every year with the current formula, even without an anime. It's an enormous succes.

[ankokudaishogun]

Dragon Ball is fine even without female authors.

Agreed. It's a Shonen manga. That should say enough.

"Shonen" is the TARGET, unrelated to the author's sex. I mean, half the success of Rumiko Takahashi are extremely popular shonen manga.

[Psajdak]

The point is, there is nothing that a woman can do to improve franchise just for having, well, a female perspective.

As for Takahashi, dunno, I haven't seen everything from her, and I pretty much only saw adaptations of her works, but what she makes is a lot different from what Dragon Ball is.
She is a better writter than Toriyama, I'll give her that.

[JulieYBM]

Arakawa Hiromu is also a popular author of a 'comic aimed at boys' and she was a woman (unless she has come out as a different gender since last I checked).

Or is there really just no room for women in Dragon Ball as a creator? Or how about as a fan? Are you boys saying that your ilk can learn only from other boys, not from women?

[Psajdak]

I mean, sure, but they aren't really necessary.

Dragon Ball doesn't need "female touch".

[JulieYBM]

I mean, sure, but they aren't really necessary.

Dragon Ball doesn't need "female touch".

Why? Is there a man who is better at bringing a woman's experience to the creation of Dragon Ball? Is there a non-binary person better equipped to helping create a female antagonist?

Like, I've already given my own take on the issue but I'm not really seeing anything specific from other members--whom I assume are men--as to why women need to keep out of the tree fort.

[Psajdak]

Why? Is there a man who is better at bringing a woman's experience to the creation of Dragon Ball? Is there a non-binary person better equipped to helping create a female antagonist?

Like, I've already given my own take on the issue but I'm not really seeing anything specific from other members--whom I assume are men--as to why women need to keep out of the tree fort.

Because at this point it is kinda too late for some different, or a more authentic depiction of women in this franchise.

Each DB female character may have some unique quirk about them, but in the end, their roles will always be to just serve as satellites for males, and no matter what they do, or say, it will only be for the sake of guys shining even more.

[JulieYBM]

Why? Is there a man who is better at bringing a woman's experience to the creation of Dragon Ball? Is there a non-binary person better equipped to helping create a female antagonist?

Like, I've already given my own take on the issue but I'm not really seeing anything specific from other members--whom I assume are men--as to why women need to keep out of the tree fort.

Because at this point it is kinda too late for some different, or a more authentic depiction of women in this franchise.

Each DB female character may have some unique quirk about them, but in the end, their roles will always be to just serve as satellites for males, and no matter what they do, or say, it will only be for the sake of guys shining even more.

How is it too late? Dragon Ball has been continually trying new things in extremely small measures already: just do more of that. More characters like Caulifla, Kale, Ribrianne, Cheelai, #21 and Towa. We have at two creators in Ishitani Megumi and Ooishi Naho. Invite and encourage more.

Not treating female characters and creators like dogshit takes zero effort.

[Jord]

If you're not happy about the 'female touch' you're free to go ahead and write your own manga. DB has a success formula that works so it would be stupid to tamper with it.

[Matches Malone]

If you're not happy about the 'female touch' you're free to go ahead and write your own manga. DB has a success formula that works so it would be stupid to tamper with it.

I personally don't care if DB is written by a male or female, but there's no denying that at this point it does need new voices to shake things up.

[Jord]

If you're not happy about the 'female touch' you're free to go ahead and write your own manga. DB has a success formula that works so it would be stupid to tamper with it.

I personally don't care if DB is written by a male or female, but there's no denying that at this point it does need new voices to shake things up.

Why? Because a vocal minority wants to? It's doing financially very good as it's doing now. (Barring COVID-related financial setbacks this year)