What would be the breaking point Super would do that would make you feel like it jumped the shark?

[SupremeKai25]

This is so confusing. So a "jumping the shark" moment is when you go back to recycling stuff like RoF did with Frieza, but also when you come up with a creative and original ending never done before in the franchise like the Future Trunks arc?

The writers really can't get it right, can they?

[Thani]

This is so confusing. So a "jumping the shark" moment is when you go back to recycling stuff like RoF did with Frieza, but also when you come up with a creative and original ending never done before in the franchise like the Future Trunks arc?

The writers really can't get it right, can they?

It's not the ending being creative and original that's the problem, it would be the overall shift in the tone and genre of the show. Zamasu winning by fusing with the universe and becoming effectively untouchable by the heroes pretty much turned DB from a fightning shounen into a cosmic horror. It was by no means bad, but it can be argued that it was a jumping the shark moment.

I also think it's important to note that since Whis solves the whole problem at the end and, anyway, nobody besides Trunks and Mai seemed to actually care that much about the incident, the tone returned to normal so shortly that it was really only a brief outlier.

[SupremeKai25]

This is so confusing. So a "jumping the shark" moment is when you go back to recycling stuff like RoF did with Frieza, but also when you come up with a creative and original ending never done before in the franchise like the Future Trunks arc?

The writers really can't get it right, can they?

It's not the ending being creative and original that's the problem, it would be the overall shift in the tone and genre of the show. Zamasu winning by fusing with the universe and becoming effectively untouchable by the heroes pretty much turned DB from a fightning shounen into a cosmic horror. It was by no means bad, but it can be argued that it was a jumping the shark moment.

I also think it's important to note that since Whis solves the whole problem at the end and, anyway, nobody besides Trunks and Mai seemed to actually care that much about the incident, the tone returned to normal so shortly that it was really only a brief outlier.

Okay, but then why are you bashing RoF? Is it not a return to the "roots" of the franchise? Saiyans fighting Frieza, a new Super Saiyan form, the planet exploding only to be brought back shortly after by divine power, plus training with Whis that continues the narrative established in BoG... does it not keep the overall tone of the franchise?

I agree that the ending of the Future Trunks arc with Zamasu killing everyone is surprisingly dark for a show like Dragon Ball, but that is positive in my opinion, not negative. I appreciate the fact that the writers had the guts to not give Trunks a happy ending, because life isn't fair. You can make as many sacrifices as you want, you're still not guaranteed to have a happy ending in life.

[PurestEvil]

Okay, but then why are you bashing RoF? Is it not a return to the "roots" of the franchise? Saiyans fighting Frieza, a new Super Saiyan form, the planet exploding only to be brought back shortly after by divine power, plus training with Whis that continues the narrative established in BoG... does it not keep the overall tone of the franchise?

I agree that the ending of the Future Trunks arc with Zamasu killing everyone is surprisingly dark for a show like Dragon Ball, but that is positive in my opinion, not negative. I appreciate the fact that the writers had the guts to not give Trunks a happy ending, because life isn't fair. You can make as many sacrifices as you want, you're still not guaranteed to have a happy ending in life.

The issue with RoF was that it was a terribly written mess. Sure, it kept the status quo of the franchise and some the action may be compelling (in the film at least), but the story is still a load of shit.

[Thani]

This is so confusing. So a "jumping the shark" moment is when you go back to recycling stuff like RoF did with Frieza, but also when you come up with a creative and original ending never done before in the franchise like the Future Trunks arc?

The writers really can't get it right, can they?

It's not the ending being creative and original that's the problem, it would be the overall shift in the tone and genre of the show. Zamasu winning by fusing with the universe and becoming effectively untouchable by the heroes pretty much turned DB from a fightning shounen into a cosmic horror. It was by no means bad, but it can be argued that it was a jumping the shark moment.

I also think it's important to note that since Whis solves the whole problem at the end and, anyway, nobody besides Trunks and Mai seemed to actually care that much about the incident, the tone returned to normal so shortly that it was really only a brief outlier.

Okay, but then why are you bashing RoF? Is it not a return to the "roots" of the franchise? Saiyans fighting Frieza, a new Super Saiyan form, the planet exploding only to be brought back shortly after by divine power, plus training with Whis that continues the narrative established in BoG... does it not keep the overall tone of the franchise?

I agree that the ending of the Future Trunks arc with Zamasu killing everyone is surprisingly dark for a show like Dragon Ball, but that is positive in my opinion, not negative. I appreciate the fact that the writers had the guts to not give Trunks a happy ending, because life isn't fair. You can make as many sacrifices as you want, you're still not guaranteed to have a happy ending in life.

I didn't bash it, actually, I was just listing it as an arguable moment of the trope in the "ran out of ideas" department, since they brought Freeza back instead of making a new threat. But then I said that even that isn't really new, so it's not really an example. Like you said, the sudden downer ending of the Future Trunks arc is good. It IS surprisingly dark for DB, which is a very welcome thing in my book, but it can be an example depending on the person. But one of the conditions is that the community as a whole sees the change as bad or unwelcome. Since the fanbase, I think, is rather divided by this example, I'm not sure it can count as a moment of shark jumping - especially since Whis came around and restored the status quo, pretty much.

Like I said, I don't really see a true "jumping the shark" moment in Modern DB. Despite some small changes and gimmicks, the overall tone and genre of the product is the same. The method of storytelling is the same, the mechanics remain the same. Honestly, DB would actually have jumped the shark with the revelation that Goku was an alien - that was a turning point to DB as a whole -, but that was so well received that it couldn't be an example.

[PurestEvil]

Alright, I think I might answer the topic's question for real here: making Goku (the one we know) a villain (for real this time).
It may not be something that is totally likely (Toei can't sacrifice the Big Yen), but it would definitely make for an utterly baffling premise for a story. I honestly can't think of any other possibility that would jump the shark, unless Tori/Toyo pulls a narrative Zanzoken on us.
The reason why I can't think of any is because the shark had already been jumped quite a fucking lot, with how Bardock was treated, the dumb climax of RoF, Trunks' shitty conclusion, Caulifla and Kale reaching fucking Super Saiyan in one day, Jiren being stronger than motherfucking time, Goku giving a senzu bean to Moro, Merus being fucking resurrected, etc etc etc.

[LoganForkHands73]

"Jumping the Shark" doesn't solely mean the creators ran out of ideas, hell, you could argue that Toriyama did that long before GT or Super were glimmers in his gas mask eye, it's just a matter of keeping the regurgitated ideas fresh and entertaining enough to keep the audience engaged. I mean, over the course of the original manga, there were three major Tenkaichi Budokai arcs, plus several minor tournaments culminating in a full return several years later in the lead up to Majin Buu. But all of them were entertaining as fuck. That's just one example. The context behind Jumping the Shark mainly stems from an ongoing show losing the edge that kept audiences watching, in exchange for cheap marketing gimmicks that end up alienating people -- hence the term being derived from Fonzie jumping over a shark for no reason during the declining years of Happy Days.

As others have said, Revival of F can be seen as a good marker for this point. I think it can be distilled to the fact that the whole film is built around one very simple, cheap premise: Freeza's back. And that's it, the film has little to offer besides that one selling point which got old quickly. It really hits that point during the final act, not just with Whis rewinding time, but the entire slogfest between Goku and Freeza. On top of being blandly choreographed and riddled with obvious CGI, it's unbearably dull and drags out worse than any fight in the series, including Goku and Freeza's infamously long first battle on Namek, despite being much shorter. It encapsulates every negative stereotype normies associate with Dragon Ball: two beefy screaming guys changing their hair/skin colours and punching and firing blasts at each other repeatedly until one falls down. Then, after all is said and done, absolutely nothing has changed from the beginning of the film. Freeza is back in Hell. Goku and Vegeta haven't learned anything. It's not good.

But the thing is... a Shark Jumping moment isn't always a death sentence. Shows can bounce back from it. I think Super (in both manga and anime form) did. The series has a bad reputation for maintaining the status quo, but when you look at it, most shows that Jump the Shark always relied on having a status quo, with the Shark Jumping moment being the moment that broke a well-liked status quo. "The Walking Dead was ruined when Glenn Character X was killed off." I guess it's interesting that Dragon Ball is a rare one where people complain about there not being enough change.

[DevilKing99]

Alright, I think I might answer the topic's question for real here: making Goku (the one we know) a villain (for real this time).
It may not be something that is totally likely (Toei can't sacrifice the Big Yen), but it would definitely make for an utterly baffling premise for a story. I honestly can't think of any other possibility that would jump the shark, unless Tori/Toyo pulls a narrative Zanzoken on us.
The reason why I can't think of any is because the shark had already been jumped quite a fucking lot, with how Bardock was treated, the dumb climax of RoF, Trunks' shitty conclusion, Caulifla and Kale reaching fucking Super Saiyan in one day, Jiren being stronger than motherfucking time, Goku giving a senzu bean to Moro, Merus being fucking resurrected, etc etc etc.

So did Cabba, Goten, and Trunks. Broly went from a power level of like 100,00 to around SSB Gogeta in barely an hour with no fighting experience at all in his life but for some strange reason two girls being strong is suddenly a fracking problem.

as matter of fact, Goten and Trunks went SSJ3 without even knowing it was a thing since Goku never even shows them SSJ3 in the manga and both went SSJ without even knowing about it, Goten went SSJ without even knowing Ki and flying even is.

[DevilKing99]

...I feel like some of you guys have rather unconvincing examples of what "jumping the shark" is. By the reasoning outlined ITT, you would have complained profusely if Toriyama's run ended with the 23rd Budokai and then modern DB started with Raditz. I see posters listing off things they're not personally fond of, but otherwise feel perfectly in line with Dragon Ball and Toriyama's way of writing it in particular.

For me, Dragon Ball jumps the shark when it butchers the elements that give it its identity in the first place. That primarily comes down to its characterization, tone, and worldview. GT does this in spades. Z movies from the 90's are arguably worse, but could at least be dismissed as side flicks. It was lost in the weeds years before Battle of Gods, but picked back up when the one guy who created it and understands it more than anyone became more intimately involved again.

But I feel like the term has, in general, lost any substance the audience could provide it with. It's just a lazy substitute for "things I don't like" now.

That Is the reason I don't like terms like "Jumping the shark", because it quickly loses itmeaning and just uses it for whatever someone didn't like in the story.

I know someone who thinks Dragon Ball "jump the shark" the moment the OG Dragon Ball ended saga ended,

And your first paragraph was right if OG dragon Ball ended and Z came out years later it would have gotten turned to shreds.

Imagine how people would react to Goku having a secret brother if dragon ball z was new or him being retconned into an alien.

[Grimlock]

as matter of fact, Goten and Trunks went SSJ3 without even knowing it was a thing since Goku never even shows them SSJ3 in the manga

Wrong. Thanks to Babidi's magic, everyone saw Goku going Super Saiyan 3 just before his fight against Majin Buu.

Goten went SSJ without even knowing Ki and flying even is.

Knowing or not what Ki and flying are aren't required or necessary to be able to go Super Saiyan.

[PurestEvil]

Alright, I think I might answer the topic's question for real here: making Goku (the one we know) a villain (for real this time).
It may not be something that is totally likely (Toei can't sacrifice the Big Yen), but it would definitely make for an utterly baffling premise for a story. I honestly can't think of any other possibility that would jump the shark, unless Tori/Toyo pulls a narrative Zanzoken on us.
The reason why I can't think of any is because the shark had already been jumped quite a fucking lot, with how Bardock was treated, the dumb climax of RoF, Trunks' shitty conclusion, Caulifla and Kale reaching fucking Super Saiyan in one day, Jiren being stronger than motherfucking time, Goku giving a senzu bean to Moro, Merus being fucking resurrected, etc etc etc.

So did Cabba, Goten, and Trunks. Broly went from a power level of like 100,00 to around SSB Gogeta in barely an hour with no fighting experience at all in his life but for some strange reason two girls being strong is suddenly a fracking problem.

as matter of fact, Goten and Trunks went SSJ3 without even knowing it was a thing since Goku never even shows them SSJ3 in the manga and both went SSJ without even knowing about it, Goten went SSJ without even knowing Ki and flying even is.

Alright I will concede that point, but my other points still stand

[Psajdak]

Trunks and Mai didn't seem all THAT concerned at the end of Zamasu arc.

[Matches Malone]

I rather GT's canonicity over Super's, even if GT is kind of broken too.

In a perfect world the BOG movie would be the only canonical sequel to the original manga. It has the best parts of both GT and Super, it's original yet similar to what came before. The problem with Super is that it's too similar to the original, while GT despite trying to be original, it wasn't very good.

[Jord]

Revival F set the precedent for divine intervention when the heroes can't beat the bad guy.
Why should we worry when they know a guy that can rewind time or can just press a button to call a guy to erase the bad guy?

[Matches Malone]

Revival F set the precedent for divine intervention when the heroes can't beat the bad guy.
Why should we worry when they know a guy that can rewind time or can just press a button to call a guy to erase the bad guy?

What they should've done is have each intervention result in the Heroes losing something in return.

[Jord]

Revival F set the precedent for divine intervention when the heroes can't beat the bad guy.
Why should we worry when they know a guy that can rewind time or can just press a button to call a guy to erase the bad guy?

What they should've done is have each intervention result in the Heroes losing something in return.

That would be great but what...I can see them sacrificing the dragon balls for it, but that obviously can only work once.

[SupremeKai25]

Trunks and Mai didn't seem all THAT concerned at the end of Zamasu arc.

They were. Mai literally cannot control herself and shoots at the sky and calls Zamasu a "son of a bitch" (which by the way was very impolite). In other words, she had a panic attack.

Meanwhile Trunks literally broke down in tears and acknowledged that he failed completely. The premise of the arc was "save the Future!", the Future is now an endless nothingness, so they lost.

[Psajdak]

They were. Mai literally cannot control herself and shoots at the sky and calls Zamasu a "son of a bitch" (which by the way was very impolite). In other words, she had a panic attack.

Meanwhile Trunks literally broke down in tears and acknowledged that he failed completely. The premise of the arc was "save the Future!", the Future is now an endless nothingness, so they lost.

I was talking about the very end of Zamasu arc, when they are saying their goodbyes to Bulma, and others.

[SupremeKai25]

They were. Mai literally cannot control herself and shoots at the sky and calls Zamasu a "son of a bitch" (which by the way was very impolite). In other words, she had a panic attack.

Meanwhile Trunks literally broke down in tears and acknowledged that he failed completely. The premise of the arc was "save the Future!", the Future is now an endless nothingness, so they lost.

I was talking about the very end of Zamasu arc, when they are saying their goodbyes to Bulma, and others.

I mean, yeah, Trunks literally cries in that scene so:



The reason is that he saw Gohan, and he saw Future Gohan in him. That made him cry because Future Gohan was very dear to him, but because Zeno erased ALL of existence, all the souls in the Otherworld were erased too. In other words, Future Gohan is gone gone, and Trunks knows this.

[Psajdak]

What can I say, good for you, I guess...