Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

Goddamn Beerus a GoD boutta appear to be stronger than trainee angels with full control of UI. Very logical stuff How didnt we all think of that. Maybe that stupid Whis is weaker than Beerus.

We know Ultra Instinct isn't a guaranteed win button considering Goku lost to Jiren. Not to mention Beerus has his own very incomplete version of Ultra Instinct as well.

[FishermanJohnWest]

It all depends on Beerus people

These statements are creditless

If UI Goku ain't Beerus level, then he ain't Broly or fusion level, and unless they bring up something contradicting Goku statement, Broly power still stands where it is

And I find it funny how people denied Broly sources with a passion but quickly jump to accepting anything that fuels their agenda

These latest spoilers seem to imply the exact opposite of what you and I have been saying for these past few months.. Since they are using the word “Ningen” very clearly, thus refering to UI Goku as the strongest “Human Being” or “Mortal” in the universe, very clearly excludes Beerus!

BUT! It doesn’t exclude Broly...

So purely based off of these spoilers (which may very well be contradicted later again in the story!!!)

Beerus >>>>>>>>>>> UI Goku > Broly.

But I’m not on that side just yet! I will await further evidence!

You know my side (the same as yours.)

But I’m always open minded to change.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that Beerus > Moro-Merus = MUI Goku > Moro-73 > Broly (> Jiren?) from the information the story and additional material have granted us. New information always takes precedent over the old, so Broly being as strong or stronger than Beerus has been contradicted multiple times already by the story itself and this new promotional material.

We will see in the future honestly, the actual story doesn't really say anything on who is stronger, cause no comparisons are made for Beerus with Moro or Goku, statements about being the toughest or strongest are creditless in super cause they are never really what they are said to be. And V Jump is just pure hype tbh, it's similar to Broly being called the strongest tons of times yet he is only PROBABLY stronger than Beerus.

[FishermanJohnWest]

In all honesty, I think it's time to drop DB power scaling debating if they UI Goku or Broly isn't Beerus level, cause at this point they are straight up just click baiting fans, and if the story wants Beerus ahead of everyone until the rematch then any power Goku achieves or any foe Goku fights won't be his level, then DBS is just wasting everyone time

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

Goddamn Beerus a GoD boutta appear to be stronger than trainee angels with full control of UI. Very logical stuff How didnt we all think of that. Maybe that stupid Whis is weaker than Beerus.

We know Ultra Instinct isn't a guaranteed win button considering Goku lost to Jiren. Not to mention Beerus has his own very incomplete version of Ultra Instinct as well.

The main reason Goku lost to Jiren was because his UI simply faded away?

About Beerus I tend to agree with you!

He still has his UI form too to master yet.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Goddamn Beerus a GoD boutta appear to be stronger than trainee angels with full control of UI. Very logical stuff How didnt we all think of that. Maybe that stupid Whis is weaker than Beerus.

We know Ultra Instinct isn't a guaranteed win button considering Goku lost to Jiren. Not to mention Beerus has his own very incomplete version of Ultra Instinct as well.

And you are correct. My 'issue' here is this: there is a set world build dedicated to the God hierarchy and subsequently the powers of each individual within it. Gods of Destruction are attended by Angels, who also take on the role of training the Destroyers. The position of Angels is far more important and yields more power.

Ultra Instinct is their signature ability. Perfect combat. Because frankly, no being can defeat an angel. No mortal, no God (thus far).

You then present the idea that said ability of Ultra Instinct is so difficult to achieve no GoD has accessed it, being flat indication on how GoDs are lesser than the angels. A trainee angel like Merus already had mastery over the ability and the strength to complement it (making a fool out of someone superior to Jiren).

Jiren and Moro were presented as the beings whose power rivals or surpasses GoDs. Goku defeats them. Via using Ultra Instinct. He would have defeated Broly too, if not for marketing dictating for Gogeta's appearance (and ofc for Toriyama wanting to canonize him).

You can't have this built up around Ultra Instinct as the ultimate power (where Goku required another foe using UI to even think of fighting seriously!) and then dump all over it with Beerus, with his imperfect semi-Omen tier technique and questionable strength, just to please fans with a 'inevitable rematch' of some sorts, which was the trend 3,4 and 5 years ago. That, for me, would be a huge plothole disregarding everything that has been said and done in the series.

You know when it will feel natural and accomplished? If they show us Beerus training, overcoming his trivial ego issues for being the Destroyer and having legitimate build up and character development towards a rematch with Goku. Not a half-assed 'I was this strong all along' scenario or a cheap 5 panel training flashback.

Current Beerus has nothing suggesting he can be a worthy opponent to Goku and if he does end up fighting him with 0 effort put into his own aforementioned build up for this rematch, I'll be highly dissapointed.

P.s. UI has never lost has it. It's just Goku dropping out of it when he loses. So now that he accesses it at will, I doubt he can be defeated unless if the finally introduce a proper trade for him to have access to this form/power.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

Goddamn Beerus a GoD boutta appear to be stronger than trainee angels with full control of UI. Very logical stuff How didnt we all think of that. Maybe that stupid Whis is weaker than Beerus.

We know Ultra Instinct isn't a guaranteed win button considering Goku lost to Jiren. Not to mention Beerus has his own very incomplete version of Ultra Instinct as well.

And you are correct. My 'issue' here is this: there is a set world build dedicated to the God hierarchy and subsequently the powers of each individual within it. Gods of Destruction are attended by Angels, who also take on the role of training the Destroyers. The position of Angels is far more important and yields more power.

Ultra Instinct is their signature ability. Perfect combat. Because frankly, no being can defeat an angel. No mortal, no God (thus far).

You then present the idea that said ability of Ultra Instinct is so difficult to achieve no GoD has accessed it, being flat indication on how GoDs are lesser than the angels. A trainee angel like Merus already had mastery over the ability and the strength to complement it (making a fool out of someone superior to Jiren).

Jiren and Moro were presented as the beings whose power rivals or surpasses GoDs. Goku defeats them. Via using Ultra Instinct. He would have defeated Broly too, if not for marketing dictating for Gogeta's appearance (and ofc for Toriyama wanting to canonize him).

You can't have this built up around Ultra Instinct as the ultimate power (where Goku required another foe using UI to even think of fighting seriously!) and then dump all over it with Beerus, with his imperfect semi-Omen tier technique and questionable strength, just to please fans with a 'inevitable rematch' of some sorts, which was the trend 3,4 and 5 years ago. That, for me, would be a huge plothole disregarding everything that has been said and done in the series.

You know when it will feel natural and accomplished? If they show us Beerus training, overcoming his trivial ego issues for being the Destroyer and having legitimate build up and character development towards a rematch with Goku. Not a half-assed 'I was this strong all along' scenario or a cheap 5 panel training flashback.

Current Beerus has nothing suggesting he can be a worthy opponent to Goku and if he does end up fighting him with 0 effort put into his own aforementioned build up for this rematch, I'll be highly dissapointed.

P.s. UI has never lost has it. It's just Goku dropping out of it when he loses. So now that he accesses it at will, I doubt he can be defeated unless if the finally introduce a proper trade for him to have access to this form/power.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant.

You don't have to apologise on my perspective.

It does not sounded like a rant at all but instead I found it very interesting!

[Grand Marshal 1]

We know Ultra Instinct isn't a guaranteed win button considering Goku lost to Jiren. Not to mention Beerus has his own very incomplete version of Ultra Instinct as well.

And you are correct. My 'issue' here is this: there is a set world build dedicated to the God hierarchy and subsequently the powers of each individual within it. Gods of Destruction are attended by Angels, who also take on the role of training the Destroyers. The position of Angels is far more important and yields more power.

Ultra Instinct is their signature ability. Perfect combat. Because frankly, no being can defeat an angel. No mortal, no God (thus far).

You then present the idea that said ability of Ultra Instinct is so difficult to achieve no GoD has accessed it, being flat indication on how GoDs are lesser than the angels. A trainee angel like Merus already had mastery over the ability and the strength to complement it (making a fool out of someone superior to Jiren).

Jiren and Moro were presented as the beings whose power rivals or surpasses GoDs. Goku defeats them. Via using Ultra Instinct. He would have defeated Broly too, if not for marketing dictating for Gogeta's appearance (and ofc for Toriyama wanting to canonize him).

You can't have this built up around Ultra Instinct as the ultimate power (where Goku required another foe using UI to even think of fighting seriously!) and then dump all over it with Beerus, with his imperfect semi-Omen tier technique and questionable strength, just to please fans with a 'inevitable rematch' of some sorts, which was the trend 3,4 and 5 years ago. That, for me, would be a huge plothole disregarding everything that has been said and done in the series.

You know when it will feel natural and accomplished? If they show us Beerus training, overcoming his trivial ego issues for being the Destroyer and having legitimate build up and character development towards a rematch with Goku. Not a half-assed 'I was this strong all along' scenario or a cheap 5 panel training flashback.

Current Beerus has nothing suggesting he can be a worthy opponent to Goku and if he does end up fighting him with 0 effort put into his own aforementioned build up for this rematch, I'll be highly dissapointed.

P.s. UI has never lost has it. It's just Goku dropping out of it when he loses. So now that he accesses it at will, I doubt he can be defeated unless if the finally introduce a proper trade for him to have access to this form/power.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant.

You don't have to apologise on my perspective.

It does not sounded like a rant but instead I found it very interesting!

You know, power scaling is cool and all but if it lacks some substance it's stale and leaves a bad taste. I won't mind Beerus being this strong of he actually shows us a damn thing or two that he actually progresses forward.... Which he doesn't.. And the more powerful foes still appear and get defeated by Goku, who is clearly not waiting on Beerus.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

And you are correct. My 'issue' here is this: there is a set world build dedicated to the God hierarchy and subsequently the powers of each individual within it. Gods of Destruction are attended by Angels, who also take on the role of training the Destroyers. The position of Angels is far more important and yields more power.

Ultra Instinct is their signature ability. Perfect combat. Because frankly, no being can defeat an angel. No mortal, no God (thus far).

You then present the idea that said ability of Ultra Instinct is so difficult to achieve no GoD has accessed it, being flat indication on how GoDs are lesser than the angels. A trainee angel like Merus already had mastery over the ability and the strength to complement it (making a fool out of someone superior to Jiren).

Jiren and Moro were presented as the beings whose power rivals or surpasses GoDs. Goku defeats them. Via using Ultra Instinct. He would have defeated Broly too, if not for marketing dictating for Gogeta's appearance (and ofc for Toriyama wanting to canonize him).

You can't have this built up around Ultra Instinct as the ultimate power (where Goku required another foe using UI to even think of fighting seriously!) and then dump all over it with Beerus, with his imperfect semi-Omen tier technique and questionable strength, just to please fans with a 'inevitable rematch' of some sorts, which was the trend 3,4 and 5 years ago. That, for me, would be a huge plothole disregarding everything that has been said and done in the series.

You know when it will feel natural and accomplished? If they show us Beerus training, overcoming his trivial ego issues for being the Destroyer and having legitimate build up and character development towards a rematch with Goku. Not a half-assed 'I was this strong all along' scenario or a cheap 5 panel training flashback.

Current Beerus has nothing suggesting he can be a worthy opponent to Goku and if he does end up fighting him with 0 effort put into his own aforementioned build up for this rematch, I'll be highly dissapointed.

P.s. UI has never lost has it. It's just Goku dropping out of it when he loses. So now that he accesses it at will, I doubt he can be defeated unless if the finally introduce a proper trade for him to have access to this form/power.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant.

You don't have to apologise on my perspective.

It does not sounded like a rant but instead I found it very interesting!

You know, power scaling is cool and all but if it lacks some substance it's stale and leaves a bad taste. I won't mind Beerus being this strong of he actually shows us a damn thing or two that he actually progresses forward.... Which he doesn't.. And the more powerful foes still appear and get defeated by Goku, who is clearly not waiting on Beerus.

Exactly!

Beerus simply seems like he does not care!

He might consider one day fighting Goku again, but as of right now, I only see it happening as a sparring match and nothing too seriously.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Goddamn Beerus a GoD boutta appear to be stronger than trainee angels with full control of UI. Very logical stuff How didnt we all think of that. Maybe that stupid Whis is weaker than Beerus.

We know Ultra Instinct isn't a guaranteed win button considering Goku lost to Jiren. Not to mention Beerus has his own very incomplete version of Ultra Instinct as well.

And you are correct. My 'issue' here is this: there is a set world build dedicated to the God hierarchy and subsequently the powers of each individual within it. Gods of Destruction are attended by Angels, who also take on the role of training the Destroyers. The position of Angels is far more important and yields more power.

Ultra Instinct is their signature ability. Perfect combat. Because frankly, no being can defeat an angel. No mortal, no God (thus far).

You then present the idea that said ability of Ultra Instinct is so difficult to achieve no GoD has accessed it, being flat indication on how GoDs are lesser than the angels. A trainee angel like Merus already had mastery over the ability and the strength to complement it (making a fool out of someone superior to Jiren).

Jiren and Moro were presented as the beings whose power rivals or surpasses GoDs. Goku defeats them. Via using Ultra Instinct. He would have defeated Broly too, if not for marketing dictating for Gogeta's appearance (and ofc for Toriyama wanting to canonize him).

You can't have this built up around Ultra Instinct as the ultimate power (where Goku required another foe using UI to even think of fighting seriously!) and then dump all over it with Beerus, with his imperfect semi-Omen tier technique and questionable strength, just to please fans with a 'inevitable rematch' of some sorts, which was the trend 3,4 and 5 years ago. That, for me, would be a huge plothole disregarding everything that has been said and done in the series.

You know when it will feel natural and accomplished? If they show us Beerus training, overcoming his trivial ego issues for being the Destroyer and having legitimate build up and character development towards a rematch with Goku. Not a half-assed 'I was this strong all along' scenario or a cheap 5 panel training flashback.

Current Beerus has nothing suggesting he can be a worthy opponent to Goku and if he does end up fighting him with 0 effort put into his own aforementioned build up for this rematch, I'll be highly dissapointed.

P.s. UI has never lost has it. It's just Goku dropping out of it when he loses. So now that he accesses it at will, I doubt he can be defeated unless if the finally introduce a proper trade for him to have access to this form/power.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant.

Neither one are compared to beerus, Broly however was

Jiren and Moro logically should be > Beerus but there is a good chance that it isn't the case. As for UI Vs Broly, Goku won't be able to defeat Broly if he don't > Beerus, he is in no safer position then either Jiren or Moro

[Nevaeh]

Broly isn't comparable to Beerus anymore

Moro is stronger than him and he's implied to be weaker than Beerus. Now this new guy will be stronger than "strongest human being" Goku but still weaker than Beerus

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, Broly has been left in the dust, he only had a PROBABLY attached to him, too easy to retcon, while Beerus is getting external help along the way all the time.

At this rate, if UI Goku is still below Beerus (how? but more importantly, why?), meaning he is above Gogeta, Broly, Jiren, Belmod, Moro-Merus, and probably above Merus, too... and keeps getting "stronger", the hakaishin crew will start looking like DBZ, with Beerus being SS3 Goku, and the rest of the GoDs being Krilin, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo... now we have to make sense to why he didn't oneshot most of them in the Exhibition Match.

Like FishermanJohn said, the power scaling is starting to lose all logic, it seems to be developed along the way, throwing overboard every comparison ever made or implied.

[SupremeKai25]

Logically, it's pretty obvious that MUI Goku surpassed Beerus. Remember that Vegito is a ningen too, and as per Shin's statement he surpassed Beerus. Now, if you're telling me that Goku is actually the strongest ningen in the universe, then he surpassed Vegito, and thus Beerus as well.

Fusions of ningens are ningens themselves, they are included in that statement, there's no reason why they wouldn't.

BUT, storywise, if Goku surpassed Beerus then I feel like the writers would've made it more obvious. Maybe they'll have a quick rematch in the near future and Goku beats him. After all a rematch can just be a quick fight, it doesn't have to be LITERALLY AN ENTIRE ARC.

Regardless, Yes, via statements Goku objectively surpassed Beerus.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Thinking about super from a logical standpoint is pointless

I bet they will push UI as the strongest mortal in U7, but if they don't want that rematch with Beerus then they will push Goku under him, and then when Broly comes along they will quickly put him > Goku and Vegeta and say he is the strongest cause his strongest saiyan portrayal and huge fan service, and then Beerus will do something and he will be the strongest all of the sudden and > Goku and Vegeta cause of him being Goku and Vegeta rivals, the new guy will come in and be called the strongest or toughest etc, and still weaker then Beerus

it's all nonsense, just treat it like heroes, whatever is breaking news is the best and strongest until the next breaking news product comes along.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I'm extremely curious (and obv many more) as to how the hell will the enemy of the new arc is going to be a challenge, when we got Angelic Moro even for a couple of pages. Seriously, how will they tamper with the powerscale? Is it time for the enemies to be relative in strength cause of all the powerscaling issues people correctly mention here? Cause even if we say that they don't care about power scaling, they still gotta mention and show stuff, since it's Dragon Ball we are talking about.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goddamn Beerus a GoD boutta appear to be stronger than trainee angels with full control of UI. Very logical stuff How didnt we all think of that. Maybe that stupid Whis is weaker than Beerus.

Merus is probably still stronger than anyone except for the angels.

It is good to remember that Moro only touched the surface of Merus' true power and even then it was just enough to make him match UI Goku. Moro didn't even manifest a halo or a staff. Full Power Merus is definitely Angel tier

[Thani]

I'm extremely curious (and obv many more) as to how the hell will the enemy of the new arc is going to be a challenge, when we got Angelic Moro even for a couple of pages. Seriously, how will they tamper with the powerscale? Is it time for the enemies to be relative in strength cause of all the powerscaling issues people correctly mention here? Cause even if we say that they don't care about power scaling, they still gotta mention and show stuff, since it's Dragon Ball we are talking about.

The enemies were already supposed to be relative in strength to each other. Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black were both in the SSB league.

The same was expected of the major enemies later, like Fused Zamasu, Jiren, Broly and now Moro - they are all at a level where they're supposedly relative to Gods of Destruction, SSB Fusions and UI.

The problem is the mentality that "every new enemy is the new strongest", and how it's seemingly applied to mean that the previous enemy is now child's play. It was true in DB and DBZ, but honestly, it's hurting DBS - DBZ simply did not such a power ceiling backed by world building as DBS does. Even with enemies that are supposedly comparable to one another, we still need to know who the strongest is and, knowing that, both us and the general feel of the story treats this new threat as something that far dwarfs the previous enemy. Goku's statement about Moro only solidifies this mindset.

But it gets harder and harder to believe that a random schmuck is suddenly on par with the upper eschelon of the power ceiling of the setting just because - hell Moro, even after devouring so many planets, should not have gotten anywhere near the Gods of Destruction in sheer power. A few planets worth of ki is not enough to reach or surpass beings who can literally destroy the universe. Broly suffered the same problems. Hell, Jiren had the perfect excuse of having access to his God of Destruction and Angel Attendant to explain his massive strength (he's even friends with the apprentice GoD Toppo! hell, he was even being scouted by Belmod originally to replace him!), despite how much of an empty character he is.

I think it's clear that Toriyama doesn't really care, since it's how he always did his work and it always worked before. And since Super, as Z and the OG DB, is aimed at kids and teens that simply won't really care about these details, they're probably keep getting away with it.

Goddamn Beerus a GoD boutta appear to be stronger than trainee angels with full control of UI. Very logical stuff How didnt we all think of that. Maybe that stupid Whis is weaker than Beerus.

Merus is probably still stronger than anyone except for the angels.

It is good to remember that Moro only touched the surface of Merus' true power and even then it was just enough to make him match UI Goku. Moro didn't even manifest a halo or a staff. Full Power Merus is definitely Angel tier

I agree on that. UI Goku being "Angel tier" shouldn't even be a thing to be considered. Surely at the level of a GoD, at bare minimum, but no need to go too far beyond that.

[ankokudaishogun]

Jiren specifically worked because he was the EXCEPTION, the one guy stronger than GoDs but unrelated to godly affairs.
Broly kinda-sorta worked as his equivalent in U-7.


Moro, I believe, has been used incorrectly: he would be easy to fix, just say him eating Vegeta's and Goku's divine ki increased his power much more than at his Prime, once he got a body young enough to use it effectively(which would also work as prelude to the whole body unable to sustain Angel power)

Which is, by the way, what Tori\Toyo are going for with Granola and 73: Goku and Vegeta being the unwitting source of their enemies power-ups.

[shadd21]

Is it possible that Beerus only used less than 10% of his power against SSG during the BoG arc?

[Matches Malone]

Is it possible that Beerus only used less than 10% of his power against SSG during the BoG arc?

He said he used that against Ssj2 Vegeta, so it wouldn't make sense to use less against Goku who was far stronger.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Is it possible that Beerus only used less than 10% of his power against SSG during the BoG arc?

He said he used that against Ssj2 Vegeta, so it wouldn't make sense to use less against Goku who was far stronger.

My personal fix for this (knowing that even SSB-level Fusion is still in contention for that level) is that Beerus was talking about 10% of the level of power he was using against the Earth's fighters, with SSG Goku being the only one able to make him use 100%....... of that level of power.